True Israel or Natural Israel?

[wpm]

If by "spiritual Israel" you speak only of those saved Israelites of natural descent, then we agree. If you include Gentiles in Christ when you use that phrase, then we disagree. Could you give commentary on Rom. 11:11-32 so that I can better understand why you believe what you believe, especially how you interpret "so all Israel will be saved"?

I just showed you Scripture that proves we are spiritual Israel today yet you ignored it and simply denied it. You need to address my argument before so easily rejecting it. Tell me in what way it should be interpreted.

I will in turn address Rom. 11:11-32.

[Mograce2U]

TH, #26

I must ask this question. What is it about Ethnic Israel that you [Amils?] so hate to the point that you [Amils?] say that God has removed them from their promises and inserted the Gentiles to take their place?

Could it be that the promises of God are only yea and amen in Christ? Or could it be that unless they turn from their unbelief, that God will NOT graft them back in again? Nobody hates Israel just because they see the true condition they are in in their unbelief - without hope in the world, because the promises & inheritance belong to Jesus.

This was once said of the Gentiles before faith came:

(Eph 2:12 KJV) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

It is now the condition of all who are still residing in their unbelief.

[BroRog]

First of all, you build a strawman and then aim at him. You totally misrepresent the Amil understanding that God loves all nations equally today. We oppose the elevation of Israel above all other nations because it is unbiblical. You create a wall of distinction between the two, Christ came to demolish such (Eph 2). There are only 2 peoples in this world - saved and lost.

You say there is a difference between the Jew and Gentile, I say that is unscriptural. Surely there is only one body, known by the same name Christian? Why the division in your belief? The Bible says "there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek" (Rom 10:12), "there is neither Jew nor Greek" (Gal 3:28), and "there is neither Greek nor Jew" (Col 3:11), "no difference between us and them" (Acts 15:9), "us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles" (Rom 9:24), and "by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles" (1 Cor 12:13).

Whether we are Jews or Gentiles, we who trust Jesus have one common faith. As Paul put it "There is one body and one Spirit -- just as you were called -- one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all" (Eph. 4:4-6).

There should be no division in the body on ethnic grounds - none.

Just for the record Paul, Third Hero wasn't arguing against the Amil Doctrine. He was arguing against your personal beliefs. Notice his or her opening statement,

This is what I believe you believe, wpm.

If we are going to be good exegetes of the Bible, we should also strive to be good exegetes of each other.

[ShirleyFord]

We have been grafted into the only Israel that matters - spiritual Israel (the elect). We are the Israel of God today. This choice body is not limited to natural Israelis that have come to faith – it is open to all the household of faith (irrespective of birthdate, nationality or colour). We Gentiles that were once hopelessly “without Christ” (or separated from Christ), are now graciously found “in Christ Jesus” through the Cross (Ephesians 2:13). We were “aliens” or estranged “from the citizenship of Israel”(Ephesians 2:12) but now are “no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God” (Ephesians 2:19). We were “strangers from the covenants of the promise” (Ephesians 2:12), but are now “fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel” (Ephesians 3:6). We were blind “having no hope,” but now we belong to “one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope” (Ephesians 4:4).

Amen Paul!

What an encouraging post and Scriptures. Thanks.

Shirley

[IPet2_9]

Scripture really doesn't leave much room for debate on the matter.

I Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Col 3:11 Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. 12 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

[BroRog]

Scripture really doesn't leave much room for debate on the matter.

Scripture doesn't leave much room, but picking verses out of context does.

[IPet2_9]

Oh no no. That's why I picked two completely separate Scriptures, by two different authors. When it point-blank says, "You are God's chosen people", not once but twice, it just doesn't get any clearer than that. Go ahead, read the context. I'll help--here's more of Col. 3:

Col. 3:9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. 12 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

It point-blank says that a) there is no Jew in God's chosen people, and b) those who are born again are God's chosen people.

[Mograce2U]

Just for the record Paul, Third Hero wasn't arguing against the Amil Doctrine. He was arguing against your personal beliefs. Notice his or her opening statement,

This is what I believe you believe, wpm.

If we are going to be good exegetes of the Bible, we should also strive to be good exegetes of each other.

Just for the record:

If this is true of all amils, then you all have serious problems

seems to indicate Amils or their doctrine is who he seems to be indicting.

[BroRog]

Oh no no. That's why I picked two completely separate Scriptures, by two different authors. When it point-blank says, "You are God's chosen people", not once but twice, it just doesn't get any clearer than that. Go ahead, read the context. I'll help--here's more of Col. 3:

Col. 3:9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. 12 Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

It point-blank says that a) there is no Jew in God's chosen people, and b) those who are born again are God's chosen people.

First, 1Peter is written to the Diaspora, as I explained before. Thus, when he says, "you are a chosen people" he takes it as a given, not as if he is telling them something new.

Second, your translation of Col. 3:9 causes Paul to speak a contradiction. To say there is no Greek or Jew in Christ is to contradict the concept of a chosen people. His readers can not be both "a chosen people" and "not a chosen people" at the same time.

Both the NASB, the KJV, and the NET Bible translators rendered Colosians 3:12 in terms of being "the elect of God" not "God's chosen people." The distinction between the two concepts is large and significant.

Paul's point in Colosians 3:12 is to say that individually, each believer is one of God's elect because "putting on the new self" is a renewal in which there is neither Greek nor Jew. This individual, personal renewal is the same for each of us.

The phrase "chosen people" does not speak to the status of individuals but speaks to the disposition of "a people", which, in Biblical usage, indicates members of a family line. The term certainly has this meaning in Deuteronomy 7

For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

In this context he says of Jacob's family,

7 The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. 8 But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Notice that he defines the people by their common experience of being redeemed from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. It would be a total blunder for me if I did not recognize the people as the sons and daughters of Jacob who came out of Egypt at the mighty hand of God. In this we understand that God chose an entire family line to keep his oath to their forefathers, an oath that he did not make to my family line.

I would not be a good Bible student if I failed to understand the distinction between being an "elect child of God", which is a choice to save people one individual at a time, and being a "chosen people" a choice to covenant with an entire family line.

In my opinion, many of wpm's arguments fail to maintain that distinction.

[Mograce2U]

First, 1Peter is written to the Diaspora, as I explained before. Thus, when he says, "you are a chosen people" he takes it as a given, not as if he is telling them something new.

Second, your translation of Col. 3:9 causes Paul to speak a contradiction. To say there is no Greek or Jew in Christ is to contradict the concept of a chosen people. His readers can not be both "a chosen people" and "not a chosen people" at the same time.

Both the NASB, the KJV, and the NET Bible translators rendered Colosians 3:12 in terms of being "the elect of God" not "God's chosen people." The distinction between the two concepts is large and significant.

Paul's point in Colosians 3:12 is to say that individually, each believer is one of God's elect because "putting on the new self" is a renewal in which there is neither Greek nor Jew. This individual, personal renewal is the same for each of us.

The phrase "chosen people" does not speak to the status of individuals but speaks to the disposition of "a people", which, in Biblical usage, indicates members of a family line. The term certainly has this meaning in Deuteronomy 7

For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

In this context he says of Jacob's family,

7 The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. 8 But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Notice that he defines the people by their common experience of being redeemed from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. It would be a total blunder for me if I did not recognize the people as the sons and daughters of Jacob who came out of Egypt at the mighty hand of God. In this we understand that God chose an entire family line to keep his oath to their forefathers, an oath that he did not make to my family line.

I would not be a good Bible student if I failed to understand the distinction between being an "elect child of God", which is a choice to save people one individual at a time, and being a "chosen people" a choice to covenant with an entire family line.

In my opinion, many of wpm's arguments fail to maintain that distinction.

Yet the distinction which the NT makes is that this has all changed with the coming of Messiah. The called, chosen AND faithful are those in Christ - and no one else.

[BroRog]

Just for the record:
seems to indicate Amils or their doctrine is who he seems to be indicting.

Notice that Third Hero's statement about the Amil position was conditional and hypothetical.

The conditional can go either way. The statement, "If this is true of all amils, then you all have serious problems" implies that if it is untrue, then you all don't have problems. (or at least you don't have the problems in question.)

I don't mean to belabor this point, but I think Third Hero is right to avoid the assumption that wpm speaks for the entire Amil school of thought. I certainly wouldn't make that assumption and I think it would be unfair for anybody to assume it. The question we might ask is, Does wpm lead us to believe that he speaks for the entire Amil school of thought? Or does he make it clear that he is giving us his own best analysis of the text at hand, making it clear that he speaks for himself?

[BroRog]

Yet the distinction which the NT makes is that this has all changed with the coming of Messiah. The called, chosen AND faithful are those in Christ - and no one else.

The thing is, I don't agree that this distinction is lost in the New Testament. And since 1Pet2_9 is willing to examine the scriptures with me, I am willing to dialogue too. I believe that a fair examination of the scriptures will reveal that the distinction is not lost.

For instance, in Romans 4, the Apostle Paul argues that justification has always been by grace through faith, citing Abraham as his case example. In his treatise on National Israel, he cites God's word to Moses that God will "have mercy on whom he will have mercy", indicating God's will to save individuals on a case-by-case basis. And so, we know that this distinction had always been there even before the New Testament revelation was given. God has both a chosen family line with which he has developed an interpersonal relationship he describes as matrimonial, and he chooses individuals for salvation on a case-by-case basis. Both of these are true at the same time, and both are seen in the Bible from the beginning.

[third hero]

First of all, you build a strawman and then aim at him. You totally misrepresent the Amil understanding that God loves all nations equally today. We oppose the elevation of Israel above all other nations because it is unbiblical. You create a wall of distinction between the two, Christ came to demolish such (Eph 2). There are only 2 peoples in this world - saved and lost.

What I have in bold letters is exactly what I am talking about wpm. I do not believe that YOUR view is the view of the Amil crowd. I believe that it is YOURS and yours alone. This is exactly what I was saying about you. You call what you have written, what I have said about you, a straw man, and then go on to prove exactly what I was saying in the first place. You DO eliminate Israel from the equation, and in my opinion, that includes those of Israel that are saved. This is what I oppose.

I am what you call a Judeo-Christian. I am not a Jew, nor do I want to be one. I believe in the union of the religion between the OT Judaism, (not the Pharisaic version that most unbelieving Jews cling to now), and Christianity, which is the New Testament. It is my belief that God had went to Israel first to give them the key to Salvation. The original 11 did exactly that, a they received the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. They represent TRUE ISRAEL, the union between those of the flesh and those of the Spirit, such as Paul and Peter represented. I believe, as Paul clearly writes in Romans 11, that Israel is splintered, due to sin. Those who claim to be Israel of the flesh, being descendents of Jacob, are both found in believing and non-believing circles. They are still all Jews, however. The Believers are the TRUE ISRAEL while the non-believers are the "Israel of the flesh". Ethnic Israel is not done away with just because there are non-believing Jews in the midst of them. Instead, they are now split in half, with one side belonging to Lord Jesus, and the other to Satan.

The mistake you make, wpm, is that you insist that God has thrown all of Israel away due to the disobedience of the Hiarchy there, and that simply is not the case. Those who do not believe are no longer Jews in the eyes of God, and this point I actually share with you. However, it seems to me as though you seem to think that a believing Jew has to give up his Jewishness in order to be a Christian. That simply is not true.

Take circumcision, for instance. The ritual of circumcision is the confirmation of the land covenant that God made with Abraham and his descendents. As you can clearly see, God is still honoring that covenant, because even though the majority of religious Jews in Israel are serving Satan, God has still chosen to allow them to go back to the place He promised Abraham. This has never had anything to do with Salvation, and Paul points that out repeatedly in his epistles. The Judaizers felt that in order to be saved, (this would include Gentiles), that all had to bow to the ritual of the land covenant, which was circumcision. This would definitely be nothing less than an abomination. Something other than faith in Lord Jesus as key to salvation? Paul, and rightly so, resisted all of that, and vehemently rejected it, as all of the disciples eventually agreed. Being circumcised ritually does not cause a person to lose their salvation, unless they believe that their salvation is based on the Mosaic laws, which would only bring to them condemnation.

Let me reiterate my original point. God did not do away with Israel, as you claim, wpm. Israel, the children of Jacob that believe that Lord Jesus is their Messiah, are True Israel. We, the Gentiles, once we believe, we are grafted into TRUE Israel, but we of ourselves do not represent Israel. They do. We represent those Gentiles who have been grafted into the promise, and adopted into the Kingdom of Heaven. We are under no oblligation to honor any of the rituals that the Jews had to, because we are not them. They, ethnic believing Jews are Jews. This is the point that Paul made in Romans 11.

One other thing. God does not see those who are of the seed of Jacob that do not believe as being Jews, because a TRUE JEW believes in Lord Jesus. Therefore, when Paul states that "all Israel shall be saved", he knows that all of the Israelites that he is talking about will end up becoming Christians, retaining their Jewishness while serving Lord Jesus.

Paul also recognized that there is scripture that prophesies that all of the remnant of Israel will mourn and be bitter over their and their forefather's sin that caused the separation in the first place, the piercing and rejection of Lord Jesus as their Savior. Each of them, according to Zechariah 12, when Jerusalem is attacked by the nations of the world, each Israelite will mourn for their mistake, and that mourning, that repenting of their sins communally, will be what will save all of Israel. Those who lived without belief in Lord Jesus will die, and they will suffer the fate of the sinner. But to those who believe, they, even if it is an entire nation, will be saved, whether you want to believe that God can do this or not.

God will save all of Israel, and there will not be needed another covenant to do so. God has already prophesied in the Bible that they will be saved, and the scenario in which will cause them to be saved. (Zechariah 12 and Revelation 11-12). And even if you do not like the fact that God still has a soft spot for Israel, the truth can not be denied.

No one has to be Jewish in order to be saved, but at the same time, God has not done away with Israel. This is what I believe you need to understand, because this is the truth. There will be no "new covenant" that will cause the Jews to be saved in any other way than what we had to do. They, the remnant of Israel that will escape the slaughterhouse in Jerusalem at the advent of the Beast, will receive the Holy Spirit, upon their mourning, confessions, and repentence of their sins, just like the rest of us. They shall not be saved after Christ comes, but before the Second coming, and they shall be saved.

And to your last point, there is no dividing line. God will save all of Israel, because God wil do as He has done since before Creation, and that is honor every single one of His promises. If a Jew follows the dietary laws, thast is not going to save him, or condemn him. Those laws are so that they remain distinct among the nations, as it was written in the Torah in the first place. None of their laws can give out salvation, nor are any of them required for salvation, or to maintain it. Jesus compressed all of the laws of Moses into two commands: Love God with all our heart, strength and might, and love each other as ourselves. Nothing else is necessary to fulfil the law, as Jesus has taught all of us.

However, even as He has taught us that, He has not folded up Ethnic Israel and thrown them away. No, they still have a place in Him, the believers do, and not the unbelievers. I have customs that ensure that people understand where I come from. They are not required for salvation, but these customs make me unique, as to show my culture, which Paul did as well. He, like me, know that these rituals are nothing more than rituals, and that does not separate us from being believers. Israelites have the right to be circumcised, eat kosher foods, and follow their old customs, and still be saved, as long as they realize that their customs hold NO weight when it comes to salvation.

[third hero]

TH, #26
Could it be that the promises of God are only yea and amen in Christ? Or could it be that unless they turn from their unbelief, that God will NOT graft them back in again? Nobody hates Israel just because they see the true condition they are in in their unbelief - without hope in the world, because the promises & inheritance belong to Jesus.

This was once said of the Gentiles before faith came:

(Eph 2:12 KJV) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

It is now the condition of all who are still residing in their unbelief.

I am sorry that I did not respond fast enough, becuase my last post clears that up. Mograce, it is my opinion that the AMIL crowd actually believes that Israel will one day be saved, and it is also my opinon that you all believe as I do, that the only way for all of Ethnic Israel to be saved is to repent of their sin, like we did, and acknowledge Lord Jesus as THEIR Messiah.

It is my opinion that most of you believe that there are teachings out there that say that Israel shall be saved, but they infer that another covenant is what God will do. I think that that portion is found mostly in the pre-trib/dispensational teachings. I, like you, oppose that. And I am certain that many TRUE JEWS do too, because they, like me, have seen in scripture the exact scenario when all of the remnant of Israel will be saved.

So, I understand where wpm is coming from, and if he could only learn what actually happened to Israel, he would have a clearer understanding of what I am talking about, and thus will become a wiser teacher of the Word. I am not saying that he is not wise, but I am saying that, like I have done in this forum in my threads to everyone in here, including the amils, have received correction when the evidence is presented and undeniable. I believe that this made me wiser, and thus in this case, with Israel in particular, I know that I am right, because of Romans 11. I know that when wpm understands it, he will become wiser, and understand that we are not elevating Israel at all, but rather, we are recognizing Israel's role in God's plan. That's all.

[third hero]

It point-blank says that a) there is no Jew in God's chosen people, and b) those who are born again are God's chosen people.

And here's where I say that you are wrong. There are Jews in God's chosen people. There are Egyptians in God's chosen people. There are Venezuelans in God's chosen people. There are people of all races, ethnicities, backgrounds, and creed in God's chosen people, and that is because they all have done the same thing, and that is that

tHEY HAVE ALL BEEN BORN AGAIN, BOTH JEW AND GENTILE.