True Israel or Natural Israel?

[wpm]

I appreciate your point of view and your supporting verses, but in keeping true to the context, Jesus would actually be a branch here (Rom. 1:3; 9:5). Selah. The trees signify human ancestry, not spiritual.

I think you need to re-read Romans 11:17. Jew and Gentiles today are now united in gaining nourishment from the root - Christ. It says, "thou (the Gentiles), being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them (natural Israelis), and with them (natural Israelis) partakest of the root and fatness (Christ) of the olive tree"

Jew and Gentile actually joinly partake of the root today - Christ.

Revelation 5:5 confirms: "the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David"

[wpm]

Possession of the land is an unconditional, non-contingent covenant with Abraham. It has nothing at all to do with Abraham's faith, since Abraham wouldn't be alive to see it. It has nothing at all to do with the faithfulness of Israel or her people, since the covenant was made before their time. The land promise is perpetual and can not be rescinded.

No. I disagree.

Moses warned the children of Israel in Deuteronomy 11:16-17, “Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them; And then the LORD's wrath be kindled against you, and he shut up the heaven, that there be no rain, and that the land yield not her fruit; and lest ye perish quickly from off the good land which the LORD giveth you.”

Deuteronomy 28:9 says, and then warns, "The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways. And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the LORD; and they shall be afraid of thee. And the LORD shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers to give thee. But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me. The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land"

Deuteronomy 28:63 continues, “And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it. And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest"


In Deuteronomy 29:24-28, Moses predicted how the land would be taken off Israel in judgement if they rebelled against the precepts of God. He also explained how others would perceive such a drastic development. Obedience and possession of the land was therefore synonymous. Moses warns, “all nations shall say, Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this land? what meaneth the heat of this great anger? Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt: For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them: And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book: And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.”

However, he then solemnly prophesies against them, saying, “Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.When ye have transgressed the covenant of the lord your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the lord be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you”(Joshua 23:15-16).

Here, in similar language to Moses, Joshua links ‘obedience to God’ with ‘retention of the land’ and solemnly prophesies the loss of the land.

After Solomon had finished building the Temple, a few verses later, in verses 17-20, the Lord warned him about the consequence of disobedience. It is interesting to note that the retention of the land was again inextricably linked to the obedience of the people: “if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, and do according to all that I have commanded thee, and shalt observe my statutes and my judgments; Then will I stablish the throne of thy kingdom, according as I have covenanted with David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man to be ruler in Israel.Butif ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them; then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations.”

This they did and therefore paid the consequences.

Rather than walk in God’s covenant and remain in that land of promise the children of Israel disobeyed God with their sin.

Jeremiah 32:21-23 says that God“hast brought forth thy people Israel out of the land of Egypt with signs, and with wonders, and with a strong hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with great terror; and hast given them this land, which thou didst swear to their fathers to give them, a land flowing with milk and honey; and they came in, and possessed it; but they obeyed not thy voice, neither walked in thy law; they have done nothing of all that thou commandedst them to do: therefore thou hast caused all this evil to come upon them.”

Verse 26 records, “they were disobedient, and rebelled against thee, and cast thy law behind their backs, and slew thy prophets which testified against them to turn them to thee, and they wrought great provocations. Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.”

Ezekiel 13:9 says, “mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord GOD.”

Amos 7:17 says, “Therefore thus saith the LORD; Thy wife shall be an harlot in the city, and thy sons and thy daughters shall fall by the sword, and thy land shall be divided by line; and thou shalt die in a polluted land: and Israel shall surely go into captivity forth of his land.”

Everlasting means without end. Israel have been without their Promised Land for a long time. They are about to lose even more. Why? They have been in rebellion against God since the cross.

[BroRog]

No. I disagree.

Paul, the scriptures you cited speak about living in the land, not possession of the land. God's punishment was exile, first for 70 years, and then for 1878 years. Israel is back in the land now awaiting the last of her people to return. Then God will pour out his spirit on them.

[wpm]

Paul, the scriptures you cited speak about living in the land, not possession of the land. God's punishment was exile, first for 70 years, and then for 1878 years. Israel is back in the land now awaiting the last of her people to return. Then God will pour out his spirit on them.

What was the condition for possessing the land?

[BroRog]

What was the condition for possessing the land?

There is no condition for possession. There is only a condition on living in the land, which is obedience to the covenant.

And since the promise has no contingency, God will meet the condition himself as he pours out his spirit on them. Once he does this, they will meet the conditions of living in peace and prosperity.

God's hesed will lead to Israel's shalom.

[Mograce2U]

My point, of course, was that the covenant God made with Abraham in chapter 15 was unconditional and not contingent on anything at all, which is the significance of the drama of God passing alone between the cuttings or the entire episode is pointless.

But, of course, the drama was not pointless. God required Abraham to trust him beyond his lifetime. Before the terms of the covenant could be realized and actualized in history, Abraham would be dead and buried. Possession of the land is an unconditional, non-contingent covenant with Abraham. It has nothing at all to do with Abraham's faith, since Abraham wouldn't be alive to see it. It has nothing at all to do with the faithfulness of Israel or her people, since the covenant was made before their time. The land promise is perpetual and can not be rescinded.

And that perpetuity is especially significant in that Jesus is the One who received the promise. The everlasting promise to Abraham culminates in his Seed who lives forever being its recipient.

[BroRog]

And that perpetuity is especially significant in that Jesus is the One who received the promise. The everlasting promise to Abraham culminates in his Seed who lives forever being its recipient.

Last I heard, Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father, not living in Palestine.

[Nihil Obstat]

They are either conditional or unconditional, they can't be both at the same time. One is the antithesis of the other.

Nothing to say concerning this right now - I'm swamped. But I needed to make time to ask your forgiveness for continually relating to you wrongly. I sinned against you by transposing onto you a motive you didn't have and then questioning you for it, as well as attempting to create in the minds of others a doubt concerning your teachability. With all sincerity, please forgive me. I was the one acting with deceptive motives, and by my impatience was the one who was rejecting the Lord who has hope to teach me patience. All sin is a break down of relationship, and that's what I agreed with by my remarks against you earlier. I recognize my having missed the mark of covenantal relationship with you, and so repent once more. Bless you!

[wpm]

There is no condition for possession. There is only a condition on living in the land, which is obedience to the covenant.

And since the promise has no contingency, God will meet the condition himself as he pours out his spirit on them. Once he does this, they will meet the conditions of living in peace and prosperity.

God's hesed will lead to Israel's shalom.

Israel resides in Palestine in rebellion against God. They still reject Christ. Nothing has changed in 2,000 yrs. Anyway, they only reside in a small and getting smaller bit of earth in the Middle East.

Jesus said, in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

Jesus said, in John 10:1, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.”

[wpm]

Nothing to say concerning this right now - I'm swamped. But I needed to make time to ask your forgiveness for continually relating to you wrongly. I sinned against you by transposing onto you a motive you didn't have and then questioning you for it, as well as attempting to create in the minds of others a doubt concerning your teachability. With all sincerity, please forgive me. I was the one acting with deceptive motives, and by my impatience was the one who was rejecting the Lord who has hope to teach me patience. All sin is a break down of relationship, and that's what I agreed with by my remarks against you earlier. I recognize my having missed the mark of covenantal relationship with you, and so repent once more. Bless you!

We are brethren and need to be gracious with each other. I accept your comments and trust that we can both engage in a fruitful manner for His glory. Thanks.

[BroRog]

Israel resides in Palestine in rebellion against God. They still reject Christ. Nothing has changed in 2,000 yrs. Anyway, they only reside in a small and getting smaller bit of earth in the Middle East.

Jesus said, in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

Jesus said, in John 10:1, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.”

The facts speak for themselves. Israel is in the land now. And all I can do is follow my Lord who did not judge by what he sees, but according to righteousness. If my God says that he will bring the bones together and put flesh on them and then fill them with the spirit, I must not judge based on what I see now, which are bones with flesh attached to them. If my God says that he will give them his spirit, then I will wait to see his miracle.

[Nihil Obstat]

Col 3:11-12 isn't referring to Gentile Christians--it very specifically refers to just "Christians". 'There is no Jew or Gentile in Christ...therefore as God's chosen people...'. As far as I'm concerned, Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians don't exist. No such thing.

I know that this is from the first page, but because you said this less than a week ago, I thought I'd point this out to you afresh: You quoted Col. 3:11-12 to say that there is no distinction between the Circumcised and the Uncircumcised, and this is true, but the passage is speaking about justification which is by faith alone, something which no one here is disputing. This is not to say, however, that distinctions are done away with. You had read Colossians three eleven, but you did not read four eleven, when Paul made a distinction between his fellow Jews (4:7-11) and his fellow Gentile brethren (4:12-14), calling his faithful brethren according to the flesh his "fellow workers for the kingdom of God who are of the circumcision" - does this help you to see what Paul meant when he said that there is 'no distinction' previously in the chapter?

[wpm]

I know that this is from the first page, but because you said this less than a week ago, I thought I'd point this out to you afresh: You quoted Col. 3:11-12 to say that there is no distinction between the Circumcised and the Uncircumcised, and this is true, but the passage is speaking about justification which is by faith alone, something which no one here is disputing. This is not to say, however, that distinctions are done away with. You had read Colossians three eleven, but you did not read four eleven, when Paul made a distinction between his fellow Jews (4:7-11) and his fellow Gentile brethren (4:12-14), calling his faithful brethren according to the flesh his "fellow workers for the kingdom of God who are of the circumcision" - does this help you to see what Paul meant when he said that there is 'no distinction' previously in the chapter?

But their Jewishness means nothing spiritually today. Paul was only mentioning this to show the reality of two different natural people. There is a difference between Nigerians and Irish in the natural, but in Christ there is no difference. Nationality carries to favours today. There is indeed neither Jew nor Greek.

[BroRog]

But their Jewishness means nothing spiritually today. Paul was only mentioning this to show to different natural people. There is a difference between Nigerians and Irish in the natural, but in Christ there is no difference. Nationality carries to favours today. There is indeed neither Jew nor Greek.

Who said anything about favors Paul?

[David Taylor]

The facts speak for themselves. Israel is in the land now. And all I can do is follow my Lord who did not judge by what he sees, but according to righteousness. If my God says that he will bring the bones together and put flesh on them and then fill them with the spirit, I must not judge based on what I see now, which are bones with flesh attached to them. If my God says that he will give them his spirit, then I will wait to see his miracle.

And your same God who gave Ezekiel the words to write, fulfilled them in the beginning of the book of Acts 2000 years ago for all the House of Israel. He gave them His Spirit, and they went out unto all nations and changed the world.