Not Just Ten commandments!!!!!

[drew]

If Jesus breaks Torah, by His own definition (He's God) He's a sinner and His blood doesn't cover your sins. My LORD is withour sin. Period.

But then how do you make sense of what Paul says in Ephesians 2 about abolishing the Law? Consider the following argument:

1. Paul says the Law is abolished in Ephesians 2;

2. Now while we may disagree over exactly what this means, it certainly must mean that there is at least some rule "X" that has been abolished. Let's say that rule is "Thou shalt not do A".

3. Let's say that X is abolished at time = t1.

4. Fred does A at some time after t1.

5. Fred has not sinned, since he did A after the time that X was abolished.

Now lets transpose this back into Jesus situation. Let's suppose that, for example, the "working on the Sabbath" law was abolished before Jesus did the thing in the wheat fields. Jesus is indeed breaking this aw, but is not sinning since this law has already been abolished.

You seem to be arguing that if Jesus breaks the Torah, He must be committing sin. But this cannot be true in respect to those elements of the Torah that have already been abolished at the time Jesus performs the "law-breaking" action.

So there really in no problem in asserting that Jesus breaks a particular rule of Torah, if a case can be made that the rule in question has already been abolished when Jesus "breaks" it.

[Ethnikos]

Given my disagreement with Alaska's position, you might be surprised that I will disagree with what you write here.

I will take a position on this that I suspect everyone will reject - Jesus intentionally breaks the Sabbath Law to signal God's intention to abolish Torah. So I am claiming that Jesus is indeed "violating" God's Law here. But, lest ye cry blasphemy, I am with Paul here. Paul clearly states in Ephesians 2 that there is at least a sense in which the Torah has indeed been abolished. And who did that? God, obviously, did that.

I will claim that Jesus did other things that "broke" Torah: He associated with corpses, etc. I also will claim that when Jesus overthrew the stalls of the people in the temple, He was symbolically enacting the destruction of the temple.

And we know why He did this. He did this to symbollicaly presage the real temple that would be the dwelling place of God - the human body as filled with the Holy Spirit.

I realize that some will be taken aback by this line of thinking - I am indeed claiming that Jesus "breaks" Torah at several point. But, if we believe that He is God, and if we take Paul seriously, we have to acknowledge that the Torah - at least in some sense - has been abolished. And so if God has abolished Torah, it makes sense that Jesus would enact this in His earthly ministry.

Let's take a look at what you present as evidence to Jesus destroying the Torah:

13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
17AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

Paul is talking about people who were being restrained from becoming Christians because they were not circumcised. He is saying that the thing that is separating us from Christ, being gentiles, has been broken down.
Let's look at the wording and see if we can understand what they mean. He says there is a law inside the ordinances, that was calling for a separation and an exclusion.
Now let's look at the context. Paul speaks of something done with human hands and that is the actual act of performing the ritual. He speaks, then, of an act that is performed by a divine act and that was the putting to death of the flesh and that is sin brought about by the activity of following lustful impulses.
So we do not see the whole Law being done away with but a particular law that is part of the Jewish ordinances, meaning the ritualistic part of the Torah.
To say that Jesus on purpose broke the Law is blasphemy, of the highest order.

[keck553]

But then how do you make sense of what Paul says in Ephesians 2 about abolishing the Law? Consider the following argument:

1. Paul says the Law is abolished in Ephesians 2;

2. Now while we may disagree over exactly what this means, it certainly must mean that there is at least some rule "X" that has been abolished. Let's say that rule is "Thou shalt not do A".

3. Let's say that X is abolished at time = t1.

4. Fred does A at some time after t1.

5. Fred has not sinned, since he did A after the time that X was abolished.

Now lets transpose this back into Jesus situation. Let's suppose that, for example, the "working on the Sabbath" law was abolished before Jesus did the thing in the wheat fields. Jesus is indeed breaking this aw, but is not sinning since this law has already been abolished.

You seem to be arguing that if Jesus breaks the Torah, He must be committing sin. But this cannot be true in respect to those elements of the Torah that have already been abolished at the time Jesus performs the "law-breaking" action.

So there really in no problem in asserting that Jesus breaks a particular rule of Torah, if a case can be made that the rule in question has already been abolished when Jesus "breaks" it.

Your argument holds no water, because, frankly,

Mat 5:18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Look up. Look down.

We have a choice. Reason with the serpent or listen to God.

[Firstfruits]

Your argument holds no water, because, frankly,

Mat 5:18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Look up. Look down.

We have a choice. Reason with the serpent or listen to God.

With the understanding that God has said that the New covnenant is not according to the previous one how does that apply to what you have said.

Both the first and the second have been in our hearts, so what therefore has changed?

Firstfruits

[keck553]

We've changed.

[Firstfruits]

So your argument is that before Y'shua God was special only on Sabbath?

Wether it is the Sabbath or not we do not worship, praise, give him thanks any less than any other day, if those that choose to worship God with others will God accept is less if it is not done on the Sabbath?

I cannot tell wrther or not someone that worships on the Sabbath thinks that God is only to be worshiped on the Sabbath because of Gods law that he gave to Israel, but I have no problem whenever I worship God, and whatever day of the week or every day, it does not matter,. If it matters, then we are saying it is wrong to do otherwise.

Firstfruits

[Firstfruits]

We've changed.

God said it was the covenant that was different, so why then do you say we have changed?

Firstfruits

[keck553]

Wether it is the Sabbath or not we do not worship, praise, give him thanks any less than any other day, if those that choose to worship God with others will God accept is less if it is not done on the Sabbath?

I cannot tell wrther or not someone that worships on the Sabbath thinks that God is only to be worshiped on the Sabbath because of Gods law that he gave to Israel, but I have no problem whenever I worship God, and whatever day of the week or every day, it does not matter,. If it matters, then we are saying it is wrong to do otherwise.

Firstfruits

Your reasoning is flawed. No one here said Shabbat is the ONLY day for the worship of God. You're inserting false dictums.

Why depend on man's reasoning instead of God's truth? Which is more profitable?

[keck553]

God said it was the covenant that was different, so why then do you say we have changed?

Firstfruits

I don't see the word 'different' in the Scriptures. Please point it out.

[Firstfruits]

Your reasoning is flawed. No one here said Shabbat is the ONLY day for the worship of God. You're inserting false dictums.

Why depend on man's reasoning instead of God's truth? Which is more profitable?

I hear what you are saying, however all I am saying is that I have no problem worshiping God whatever day it is and it does not have to be the Sabbath. I know what God has commanded in the Law of Moses and I know that If we were under it then Paul would not have said this;

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Firstfruits

[Firstfruits]

I don't see the word 'different' in the Scriptures. Please point it out.

God said that the first covenant was not according to the second, does that mean it is the same or that it changed?

Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Firstfruits

[Emanate]

Wether it is the Sabbath or not we do not worship, praise, give him thanks any less than any other day, if those that choose to worship God with others will God accept is less if it is not done on the Sabbath?

I cannot tell wrther or not someone that worships on the Sabbath thinks that God is only to be worshiped on the Sabbath because of Gods law that he gave to Israel, but I have no problem whenever I worship God, and whatever day of the week or every day, it does not matter,. If it matters, then we are saying it is wrong to do otherwise.

Firstfruits

What do you mean by worship? I cannot find a connection between Sabbath and worship in the scriptures.

[Firstfruits]

What do you mean by worship? I cannot find a connection between Sabbath and worship in the scriptures.

If you have been working all week, at the end of the week do you not look forwards to your rest and are yuou not thankful to God for your rest, do you not go to fellowship with others and worship and praise God for all he has done for you, that is worship.

Firstfruits

[Ethnikos]

Wether it is the Sabbath or not we do not worship, praise, give him thanks any less than any other day, if those that choose to worship God with others will God accept is less if it is not done on the Sabbath?

I cannot tell wrther or not someone that worships on the Sabbath thinks that God is only to be worshiped on the Sabbath because of Gods law that he gave to Israel, but I have no problem whenever I worship God, and whatever day of the week or every day, it does not matter,. If it matters, then we are saying it is wrong to do otherwise.

Firstfruits

I said before, on this forum that I went to the local Temple for three years. There was a service on Friday night and one Saturday morning. They were different and let me try to explain it. The thing in the morning was a minion. If this was in a city and had a big Jewish community, it would be a daily occurrence but in a small town, it happens on the Sabbath because that is when they can have a minion. A minion is a term to describe a number of people gathered together to hear the Torah reading and the blessings given to God that are congregational, if you can understand that.
On Friday, the service is something else in that it is a reenactment of something that would happen in the home, to usher in the Sabbath. The Rabbi said that in reality, it should be done at home. A woman would get up and light a candle. The law says not to kindle a fire on the Sabbath, so the woman of the house would light a candle right before sundown and that fire would be the only fire used until the sun went down the next day. They would start fires for whatever use, off that one flame.
If you go back to the manna miracle in the wilderness, you see that the people were to not go out, but to stay home on the Seventh day.
So, as far as I am concerned, people can stay home on the seventh day and go to church on the first day. I have done that and would do it now if I was so inclined. If you want to commemorate Christ rising from the dead on Sunday morning, do whatever you feel is right. I do not think it is my job to tell people what to do.

[drew]

Your argument holds no water, because, frankly,

Mat 5:18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Look up. Look down.

We have a choice. Reason with the serpent or listen to God.

Well now that you YELL your position, it makes a lot more sense.

Please show me the respect that I am showing to you and do not suggest that I am colluding with Satan.