And of course, Politics.

[oscarkipling]

okay I know that this is an extremely divisive and broad question,but still if you feel like getting into it then I'd appreciate it. What should a Christian's sociopolitical stance look like? What in your opinion, should a God fearing nation look like? What sorts of policies (trade, defense social, programs and the like) should a Christian nation have? Most importantly I'd like to see the scripture that informs your politics and explanations of your conclusions.

[ServantofTruth]

I'm not quite sure how this question is meant to help you find and submit to Jesus Christ, but i'll reply anyway.

My politics would combine Romans chapter 13 with how Jesus himself lived while on earth and the apostles/ disciples. It would include the whole of scripture - not just the obvious verses that speak directly to the issue (or seem to).

Like my faith generally, it would include love for all people and love for all christians - including listening to how they see God's Word through the Holy Spirit in them.

It would include admitting i am not perfect and i am sometimes wrong. Puting others before myself, even if it hurts me to do so.

I guess i'd quickly find myself sharing the sermon on the mount, Matthew chapters 5-7 for how to live.

If i began listing scriptures, i'd start with the ones above - but the list would honestly not end until every book, chapter and verse was included.

I think you may be surprised, how this topic developes. Faith and politics can come together - but only if politics is a very poor second place. Love SofTy.

[Scruffy Kid]

There are many many aspects, of course, to the political and social ethics the bible teaches.

One -- just one -- of those aspects is helping the poor and needy, including society making mandatory and institutional provision for those in need.

I can't really get into your whole topic for the next few days, at least, because of other work and family obligations.

However, I refer you to the thread Christianity and the social gospel, and by way of introduction note three posts, out of quite a few, from that thread in which I develop the biblical case in detail, giving over 100 scriptures. The three posts simply introduce you to the thread, the biblical case, and my posts on it.

Happy reading!

God's commands concerning our response to those in need: NT

The The Tanach (Old Testament) also places a high value upon helping the poor -- just as (we have seen) the NT does. ...

Isaiah begins by proclaiming God's judgment upon Judah because they fail to care for those in need; and tells them -- there and through the book up through chapter 58 -- that what they need to do to return to God is (as one of the most important steps, not the whole) to care for those in need, and treat them as if they were kin, and supply their needs. ...

7. The Torah (The Books of Moses, the Penteteuch)

Right response to the poor is discussed mainly in Leviticus and Deuteronomy -- especially Lev. 25 and Deut 15. Both are quite emphatic, proscribe detailed duties of helping the poor, as well as laying down general principles.

The point is not that the detailed regulations are to be an exact model for legislation today, but rather that these teachings clearly indicate the importance God puts upon institutional provisions for the poor, as well as individual acts of charity. Also, they indicate that these things are not put out as a matter of options to consider, or nice extras, but as commands which are part of God's essential plans.

Care -- material provision -- for those in need is central to living a righteous life, according to the bible, and is a central part of obeying God and walking with him. Thus the statutes and injunctions of the books of Moses were the foundation for the teaching about the poor that is made in the NT and in the prophets and wisdom literature (Psalms, etc.) as discussed above.

General Principles.
The idea developed throughout the law of Moses is that the whole community, and each of those within it, is to take care of the poor. He command, in general, that "if there is a poor man of one of your brothers inside your gates in your land which the Lord your God gives you, you shall not harden your heart, nor shut your hand from your poor brother" (Deut. 15:7).

The language is worth noting: "you shall not harden your heart". "Hardening your heart" is, in OT and NT, is language used of those who turn away from God. God delivered the Israelites from bondage in Egypt with a mighty hand, despite Pharoah's hard heart. Thus this command connects our "loving your neighbor" (Lev. 19:18) who may be poor with our openness to God and His purposes and his word to us. Again it emphasizes that the land is God's -- that our prosperity and material blessings are God's gift and not simply the result of our own exertions -- and that therefore its fruits are to be used in care for all people, and not just ourselves.

The underlying thought here thus deeply prepares for the proclamation of the prophets, of Christ, and of the NT writers.

The portion of the argument just quoted, which contains the heading "7. Torah" indicates that this was one point out of 7 in my discussion of the theme in the OT (Tanach). There's about 10 pages or more of close Scriptural argument which were martialled in my arguments on this point. The thread contains important reflections by Cheech and others, as well as some really odd contributions by some ex-members of the board.

The discussion below about the central message of the gospel is -- though it may not at first seem so -- very much a part of that discussion. It is trying to indicate how the core theological themes of Creation, salvation, and Christ's death and resurrection are tied in to the social ethics of care for those in need. These are not disparate parts of the Biblical teaching, but integrally connected.

The aim and goal of our lives, the purpose for which God created us, is that we should be joined with Him in a life shared with him, and this is the life of love.

Thus Peter writes that God's "power has given us all things unto life and godliness through knowledge of him who has called us to glory and virtue; and through this are given to us his exceedingly great and precious promises, that" we "might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through excessive desires." It's because of that that Peter urges us to "diligently add virtue to faith", add knowledge to virtue, moderation, patience, and godliness to knowledge, culminating in brotherly kindness (philadelphia) and love (agape). These things make us abound, and be fruitful in the knowledge of Jesus Christ; but those who lack them are "blind." They make our calling and election sure. (II Pet. 1:3-10)

Similarly John emphasizes that our heritage of living as God's children comes from what Christ has done for us, and has as its end being like Jesus. "See what love the Father has shown us that we should be called the children of God. ... we know that when he (Christ) appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is! Everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself because he (Christ) is pure." (I John 3:1-3) This leads into a passage in which practical instruction in self-purification and living as Christ lives leads to an exhortation to love one another ("he who does not love his brother abides in death", 3:14) and to work that love out in deeds of practical compassion ("if someone has this world's goods but shuts up his compassion" toward those who lack them, "how does God's love abide in him." 3:17) Because our aim -- God's aim for us -- is that we be part of Christ's body, and be made like Him, we are urged, as "little children" to "love not in speech and word, but in deed and truth." (3:18) All this is part of John's invitation to his readers to "have fellowship with us, and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His son Jesus Christ." 1:3 This is grounded in God's eternal nature ("God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God and God abides in him," 4:16) and in what Christ has done for us ("This is love, not that we loved God but that He loved us, and gave his son to be the propitiation for our sins." 4:10; and "We love because he first loved us", 4:19) Nevertheless, this has to find fruit in our compassion toward those whom we actually meet: "he who doesn't love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen, and we have this command from him that he who loves God must love his brother also." (4:20-21)

Paul (I Cor. 13:2) tells us "though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing."

These counsels, commands, and spiritual understandings -- repeated in various ways by James, Paul, Luke, Mark, and other Biblical writers, in NT and OT, are based on the praxis of the early church, as recounted in Acts, and on Jesus' own life. Jesus is the very image of the Father's own person (II Cor 4:4, Col. 2:15, Heb. 1:3, John 14:9, etc.), and we are made to be conformed to his image (Rom. 8:29, I John 3:2, etc.)

Jesus is repeatedly shown as healing those in need, and helping those who are poor, and comforting the sorrowful. When Jesus heals, in the gospels, we are told over and over again that he "had compassion" -- literally he was "moved in his guts" (Matt. 9:36, 14:14, 15:32, 20:34, Mark 1:41, 6:34, 8:2, Luke 7:12, etc.) This expression (σπλαγχνίζομαι, splagchnizomai, to be moved in the guts) is used repeatedly both of Jesus healing those in physical need, and of his having compassion on people's spiritual needs. It cannot be seriously maintained that Jesus healed people only to demonstrate his power, or promote the gospel, because the motive ascribed in the gospel texts is that of "gut-wrenching" compassion -- which accords with many other parts of Jesus' teaching and action. Jesus weeps for Lazarus, and for Jerusalem, and describes God's love for us as like a Father's love for his children.

And of course Jesus centrally, and repeatedly, tells us to love: to love everyone -- family, friends, strangers, enemies, foreigners, sinners, those in need and so on. (We love because He first loved us!) He tells us to love in costly ways, sacrificially, taking risks, giving up what is our own to do so.

And he does so because only thus can we be at one with him, partakers in his work, joined with him in spirit, right in heart, close to God. God has called us to be holy, for He is holy; to be a kingdom of priests to God, to have and to live with the mind of Christ. And so He has called us to love, as He also loves. Also it's only fitting, as we ourselves are hopeless debtors, made alive only by His grace (and, of course, created by Him as well, and made to be in his image and likeness.)

So it's a central part of his incredibly great and kind love and mercy to each of us that he wants us to participate in the life of self-giving love that is the very heart of His own life and goodness and fullness of being.

That, IMO, is what this thread is all about.

Blessings on you!
Scruff

[oscarkipling]

There are many many aspects, of course, to the political and social ethics the bible teaches.

One -- just one -- of those aspects is helping the poor and needy, including society making mandatory and institutional provision for those in need.

I can't really get into your whole topic for the next few days, at least, because of other work and family obligations.

However, I refer you to the thread Christianity and the social gospel, and by way of introduction note three posts, out of quite a few, from that thread in which I develop the biblical case in detail, giving over 100 scriptures. The three posts simply introduce you to the thread, the biblical case, and my posts on it.

Happy reading!
The portion of the argument just quoted, which contains the heading "7. Torah" indicates that this was one point out of 7 in my discussion of the theme in the OT (Tanach). There's about 10 pages or more of close Scriptural argument which were martialled in my arguments on this point. The thread contains important reflections by Cheech and others, as well as some really odd contributions by some ex-members of the board.

The discussion below about the central message of the gospel is -- though it may not at first seem so -- very much a part of that discussion. It is trying to indicate how the core theological themes of Creation, salvation, and Christ's death and resurrection are tied in to the social ethics of care for those in need. These are not disparate parts of the Biblical teaching, but integrally connected.

Blessings on you!
Scruff

awesome, this is exactly what i wanted! thanks

[oscarkipling]

I'm not quite sure how this question is meant to help you find and submit to Jesus Christ, but i'll reply anyway.

My politics would combine Romans chapter 13 with how Jesus himself lived while on earth and the apostles/ disciples. It would include the whole of scripture - not just the obvious verses that speak directly to the issue (or seem to).

Like my faith generally, it would include love for all people and love for all christians - including listening to how they see God's Word through the Holy Spirit in them.

It would include admitting i am not perfect and i am sometimes wrong. Puting others before myself, even if it hurts me to do so.

I guess i'd quickly find myself sharing the sermon on the mount, Matthew chapters 5-7 for how to live.

If i began listing scriptures, i'd start with the ones above - but the list would honestly not end until every book, chapter and verse was included.

I think you may be surprised, how this topic developes. Faith and politics can come together - but only if politics is a very poor second place. Love SofTy.

I like surprises, I say go ahead and start developing the picture until you get tired.

also...I'm not sure how this could help me find Jesus either, but you know...at least we're talking about the bible.

[markinro]

okay I know that this is an extremely divisive and broad question,but still if you feel like getting into it then I'd appreciate it. What should a Christian's sociopolitical stance look like? What in your opinion, should a God fearing nation look like? What sorts of policies (trade, defense social, programs and the like) should a Christian nation have? Most importantly I'd like to see the scripture that informs your politics and explanations of your conclusions.

Matt 22

16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.
17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

[oscarkipling]

Matt 22

16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.
17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

While I appreciate your reply, I'd appreciate it more if you could explain how this informs your political views...what do these verses tell you about God's will when it comes to politics? what sociopolitical opinions have you formed based on this scripture?

[markinro]

Jesus had this gift (among MANY) of saying very little but speaking VOLUMES. In essence, speaking in the general sense

Love each other as you love yourselves

In Matt 22, Jesus is saying "Man will make no law that goes against God's will"

As far as my political views, I would agree with the above statement

[ServantofTruth]

I actually feel developing what i have said so far would waste my time and yours. I have little interest in political parties, or the politics of satan's world. It bores me to be honest.

My role is to bring non believers to Jesus Christ and help new christians with their walk.

If you read the gospels and act, or try to, like Jesus and the disciples you won't go far wrong. Which party you put a cross against in an election, doesn't interest me.

In satan's world we will never have perfect governments because they are made up of imperfect people. Christians will vote for many parties and candidates for many reasons - as long as their concience is clear and they are trying their best to follow Jesus Christ, it's all we can ask in this body/ life.

What you need to do is stop thinking as satan's world has made you think, about countries, and governments, and possessions and start seeing all people as God's children all the same, whereever they are born, whatever colour, whatever sex, whatever background.

One thing is important in your life/ today right now. Are you going to come to the foot of the cross of Jesus Christ and confess your sins?

Because when Jesus Christ returns, it won't matter who is in government. How important we are or not. How rich or poor. How educated or not. I'll share just a few verses with you. Please be kind enough to read them - Revelation chapter 20: verses 11-15.

The only Christian government will be the rule of Jesus Christ in eternity. SofTy.

[oscarkipling]

I actually feel developing what i have said so far would waste my time and yours. I have little interest in political parties, or the politics of satan's world. It bores me to be honest.

My role is to bring non believers to Jesus Christ and help new christians with their walk.

If you read the gospels and act, or try to, like Jesus and the disciples you won't go far wrong. Which party you put a cross against in an election, doesn't interest me.

In satan's world we will never have perfect governments because they are made up of imperfect people. Christians will vote for many parties and candidates for many reasons - as long as their concience is clear and they are trying their best to follow Jesus Christ, it's all we can ask in this body/ life.

What you need to do is stop thinking as satan's world has made you think, about countries, and governments, and possessions and start seeing all people as God's children all the same, whereever they are born, whatever colour, whatever sex, whatever background.

One thing is important in your life/ today right now. Are you going to come to the foot of the cross of Jesus Christ and confess your sins?

Because when Jesus Christ returns, it won't matter who is in government. How important we are or not. How rich or poor. How educated or not. I'll share just a few verses with you. Please be kind enough to read them - Revelation chapter 20: verses 11-15.

The only Christian government will be the rule of Jesus Christ in eternity. SofTy.

you know, I was going to say something mean, but I guess the holy spirits came over me, so thanks for you reply.

[mcgyver]

Hey Oscarkipling!

I really haven't "talked" to you very much...just one time if I remember...but I read your posts regularly.

You ask some good questions, and I enjoy reading both the questions and the answers to them.

Seems to me that you're kinda "sticking your toe in to test the waters" as it were, and I've got to ask...

What is it that prevents you from becoming a Christian?

I don't mean that sarcastically or in a challenging manner...I'm just curious to know

[oscarkipling]

Hey Oscarkipling!

I really haven't "talked" to you very much...just one time if I remember...but I read your posts regularly.

You ask some good questions, and I enjoy reading both the questions and the answers to them.

Seems to me that you're kinda "sticking your toe in to test the waters" as it were, and I've got to ask...

What is it that prevents you from becoming a Christian?

I don't mean that sarcastically or in a challenging manner...I'm just curious to know

Hey McGuyver

Well, the only thing I can really say is that I don't believe that God exists. I don't believe what Christianity says about God or heaven or salvation or spirits or creation. I will admit that there are things in Christianity that I feel are mighty fine guidelines that can make life a whole lot better. So, while it is often insightful, I just don't feel that the Christian model of the world has persistently divine characteristics, It doesn't feel different enough from other ideologies for me to say "At last! The other half of the medallion!!". I don't feel that Christians are so different from other believers that their Christian beliefs insist undeniable truth. There are so many alternate explanations that are equally intriguing and insightful and equally awkward. when I take it all in (or as much as I have taken in) The Christian model doesn’t appear to describe reality with such accuracy that I am compelled to believe it...there are even parts that require such acrobatics to to fit into what I suspect (dare I say know) about the world that it leaves a bitter taste in my brains. When I think of all the fervent believers that were sure that they were following God even hearing his direct inducements; those who by today’s standards would surely burn in hell, it makes me question the veracity of the notion of spiritual understanding/personal relationship with God. The constant justification that people purposely wanted to be evil winds up feeling like a cop out and the utter absence of tangible action by God since the olden days only makes it harder to comprehend. There are also principles such as the "Peace of Christ" that truly fails to distinguish itself from its pedestrian foil. I have not found a single concept that transcends common human intellect (which I feel is extremely formidable) and psychology. The fact that I’ve asked God many times to reveal himself to me and has as of yet been left wanting is something that I can only interpret as apathy or absence....So, what’s keeping me out here and you in there? Incentive.



hahah thats hilarious how I started out with "all I can say is" like I was gonna write that one sentence....i'm such a windbag.

[Tanya~]

Part of the problem Oscar is that you are basing your idea of the "Christian model of the world" on the opinions of a few Christians, and not on God and what He says about it. Even with the Bible, different Christians will have different concepts of what our political stance should be, just because we're human.

According to the Bible, the world system as it is now is irreparable. It is going to be done away with, and something new is coming to take its place. So in truth it doesn't matter that each Christian has a different political stance from every other Christian. Each of us will act according to our own convictions, which convictions are shaped by a variety of factors including how long we've been a believer, how well we know Scripture, how we interpret it, our own background and current circumstances, and a whole host of other things.

But this really does go back to the issue of judgment. The world is going to be judged, and so will each individual person including you. I see that you are exploring a lot of different ideas but ultimately you will need to deal with that fact, one way or the other.

[oscarkipling]

Part of the problem Oscar is that you are basing your idea of the "Christian model of the world" on the opinions of a few Christians, and not on God and what He says about it. Even with the Bible, different Christians will have different concepts of what our political stance should be, just because we're human.

According to the Bible, the world system as it is now is irreparable. It is going to be done away with, and something new is coming to take its place. So in truth it doesn't matter that each Christian has a different political stance from every other Christian. Each of us will act according to our own convictions, which convictions are shaped by a variety of factors including how long we've been a believer, how well we know Scripture, how we interpret it, our own background and current circumstances, and a whole host of other things.

But this really does go back to the issue of judgment. The world is going to be judged, and so will each individual person including you. I see that you are exploring a lot of different ideas but ultimately you will need to deal with that fact, one way or the other.

Yes Tanya you may be right, I might have to ultimately deal with judgment, but at this point I don't believe that...and part of the reason is the multiple interpretations...its truly baffling to me.

[mcgyver]

Hey McGuyver

Well, the only thing I can really say is that I don't believe that God exists. I don't believe what Christianity says about God or heaven or salvation or spirits or creation. I will admit that there are things in Christianity that I feel are mighty fine guidelines that can make life a whole lot better. So, while it is often insightful, I just don't feel that the Christian model of the world has persistently divine characteristics, It doesn't feel different enough from other ideologies for me to say "At last! The other half of the medallion!!". I don't feel that Christians are so different from other believers that their Christian beliefs insist undeniable truth. There are so many alternate explanations that are equally intriguing and insightful and equally awkward. when I take it all in (or as much as I have taken in) The Christian model doesn’t appear to describe reality with such accuracy that I am compelled to believe it...there are even parts that require such acrobatics to to fit into what I suspect (dare I say know) about the world that it leaves a bitter taste in my brains. When I think of all the fervent believers that were sure that they were following God even hearing his direct inducements; those who by today’s standards would surely burn in hell, it makes me question the veracity of the notion of spiritual understanding/personal relationship with God. The constant justification that people purposely wanted to be evil winds up feeling like a cop out and the utter absence of tangible action by God since the olden days only makes it harder to comprehend. There are also principles such as the "Peace of Christ" that truly fails to distinguish itself from its pedestrian foil. I have not found a single concept that transcends common human intellect (which I feel is extremely formidable) and psychology. The fact that I’ve asked God many times to reveal himself to me and has as of yet been left wanting is something that I can only interpret as apathy or absence....So, what’s keeping me out here and you in there? Incentive.



hahah thats hilarious how I started out with "all I can say is" like I was gonna write that one sentence....i'm such a windbag.

Just wanted to drop a quick note and tell you "Thanks" for your honest answer! No windbag about it!