And of course, Politics.

[oscarkipling]

Part of the problem Oscar is that you are basing your idea of the "Christian model of the world" on the opinions of a few Christians, and not on God and what He says about it. Even with the Bible, different Christians will have different concepts of what our political stance should be, just because we're human.

According to the Bible, the world system as it is now is irreparable. It is going to be done away with, and something new is coming to take its place. So in truth it doesn't matter that each Christian has a different political stance from every other Christian. Each of us will act according to our own convictions, which convictions are shaped by a variety of factors including how long we've been a believer, how well we know Scripture, how we interpret it, our own background and current circumstances, and a whole host of other things.

But this really does go back to the issue of judgment. The world is going to be judged, and so will each individual person including you. I see that you are exploring a lot of different ideas but ultimately you will need to deal with that fact, one way or the other.

Yes Tanya you may be right, I might have to ultimately deal with judgment, but at this point I don't believe that...and part of the reason is the multiple interpretations...its truly baffling to me.

[mcgyver]

Hey McGuyver

Well, the only thing I can really say is that I don't believe that God exists. I don't believe what Christianity says about God or heaven or salvation or spirits or creation. I will admit that there are things in Christianity that I feel are mighty fine guidelines that can make life a whole lot better. So, while it is often insightful, I just don't feel that the Christian model of the world has persistently divine characteristics, It doesn't feel different enough from other ideologies for me to say "At last! The other half of the medallion!!". I don't feel that Christians are so different from other believers that their Christian beliefs insist undeniable truth. There are so many alternate explanations that are equally intriguing and insightful and equally awkward. when I take it all in (or as much as I have taken in) The Christian model doesn’t appear to describe reality with such accuracy that I am compelled to believe it...there are even parts that require such acrobatics to to fit into what I suspect (dare I say know) about the world that it leaves a bitter taste in my brains. When I think of all the fervent believers that were sure that they were following God even hearing his direct inducements; those who by today’s standards would surely burn in hell, it makes me question the veracity of the notion of spiritual understanding/personal relationship with God. The constant justification that people purposely wanted to be evil winds up feeling like a cop out and the utter absence of tangible action by God since the olden days only makes it harder to comprehend. There are also principles such as the "Peace of Christ" that truly fails to distinguish itself from its pedestrian foil. I have not found a single concept that transcends common human intellect (which I feel is extremely formidable) and psychology. The fact that I’ve asked God many times to reveal himself to me and has as of yet been left wanting is something that I can only interpret as apathy or absence....So, what’s keeping me out here and you in there? Incentive.



hahah thats hilarious how I started out with "all I can say is" like I was gonna write that one sentence....i'm such a windbag.

Just wanted to drop a quick note and tell you "Thanks" for your honest answer! No windbag about it!

[mcgyver]

I saw that you stated that you did not believe that God exists.

Just to clarify, are you an atheist in the classic sense of the word (God does not exist...period); or are you more agnostic (maybe God exists or God does exist...but He just doesn't have anything to do with us now) in your thinking?

[Gulah Papyrus]

When I think of all the fervent believers that were sure that they were following God even hearing his direct inducements; those who by today’s standards would surely burn in hell, it makes me question the veracity of the notion of spiritual understanding/personal relationship with God. The constant justification that people purposely wanted to be evil winds up feeling like a cop out and the utter absence of tangible action by God since the olden days only makes it harder to comprehend.

Hello Oscar, good to see you still hanging around.

Can you give a few examples of these 'fervent believers' and their actions?

[oscarkipling]

I saw that you stated that you did not believe that God exists.

Just to clarify, are you an atheist in the classic sense of the word (God does not exist...period); or are you more agnostic (maybe God exists or God does exist...but He just doesn't have anything to do with us now) in your thinking?

Well you know, its not that I know whether or not God exists, I just don't believe that he does. I imagine I've oscillated through all of those ideas at one time or another, but none of them keep me for too long. I'd say the most constant is my inconstancy.

[oscarkipling]

Hello Oscar, good to see you still hanging around.

Can you give a few examples of these 'fervent believers' and their actions?

vuddup Gulah...yep i'm still hangin around

lets see though, the atrocities during the crusades are one of the fist things that I think of. the persecution Jewish people throughout history by Christians. the Inquisitions and witch trials. The Irish protestant v catholic terrors. American slave owners...the Phelpies...idk stuff like that...I know that they weren't "real" Christians, but they thought/think they were/are.

[markinro]

okay I know that this is an extremely divisive and broad question,but still if you feel like getting into it then I'd appreciate it. What should a Christian's sociopolitical stance look like? What in your opinion, should a God fearing nation look like? What sorts of policies (trade, defense social, programs and the like) should a Christian nation have? Most importantly I'd like to see the scripture that informs your politics and explanations of your conclusions.

I'd like to bounce this back.

What should a Christian's sociopolitical stance look like?
What in your opinion, should a God fearing nation look like?
What sorts of policies (trade, defense social, programs and the like) should a Christian nation have?
Most importantly I'd like to see the scripture that informs your politics and explanations of your conclusions.

(i.e. what response are you willing to accept ?)

[oscarkipling]

I'd like to bounce this back.

What should a Christian's sociopolitical stance look like?
What in your opinion, should a God fearing nation look like?
What sorts of policies (trade, defense social, programs and the like) should a Christian nation have?
Most importantly I'd like to see the scripture that informs your politics and explanations of your conclusions.

(i.e. what response are you willing to accept ?)

Well Mark, any answer you give is fine...its better for me personally if you actually engage in my little exercise of the imagination and answer the questions, but as you can see there are many splendored answers here, even ones to questions that I didn't ask. They all remain in this thread without any deleterious effect on the involved parties. So as you can see, you can basically reply in whatever fashion you see fit (in accordance with the rules and statutes of this forum), and I will have no choice but to accept said reply as your response...However if you are asking me what responses I will agree with, then I would have to admit that I'm unfamiliar with all of the possible responses that I might find agreeable, but we can both rest assured that all responses that I agree with will be promptly agreed upon in an agreeable manner...agreed?

[Sold Out]

okay I know that this is an extremely divisive and broad question,but still if you feel like getting into it then I'd appreciate it. What should a Christian's sociopolitical stance look like? What in your opinion, should a God fearing nation look like? What sorts of policies (trade, defense social, programs and the like) should a Christian nation have? Most importantly I'd like to see the scripture that informs your politics and explanations of your conclusions.

"Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance." Psalm 33:12

First of all you have to separate the responsibilities of the CHURCH and of the GOVERNMENT.

The CHURCH (born-again Christians) have a responsibility to first reach the lost for whom Christ died, then to look after orphans and widows & the poor, and to minister to those in various stages of need (physical or spiritual).

The GOVERNMENT has a responsiblity to establish and uphold laws and govern fairly. There are a plethora of things that can fall under this umbrella, such as national defense, trading, etc.

In my opinion (please take note of that), I believe that our leaders should be God-fearing men - who take into account the moral & civil laws of the bible when establishing laws. We currently see this in our own governmental system, all though some facets have been challenged and removed (abortion;gay marriage).

When America was founded, the idea was 'less government'. The colonists were escaping Britain where the government was oppressive. They wanted to establish a nation that did not want it's citizens to be under a burden of excessive governmental control, and to be self-sufficient.

Well America has flip-flopped that ideal. More people THAN EVER rely on the government for various types of support, which has allowed the government to have more control over it's citizens. This is not what America was intended to be.

[oscarkipling]

"Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance." Psalm 33:12

First of all you have to separate the responsibilities of the CHURCH and of the GOVERNMENT.

The CHURCH (born-again Christians) have a responsibility to first reach the lost for whom Christ died, then to look after orphans and widows & the poor, and to minister to those in various stages of need (physical or spiritual).

The GOVERNMENT has a responsiblity to establish and uphold laws and govern fairly. There are a plethora of things that can fall under this umbrella, such as national defense, trading, etc.

In my opinion (please take note of that), I believe that our leaders should be God-fearing men - who take into account the moral & civil laws of the bible when establishing laws. We currently see this in our own governmental system, all though some facets have been challenged and removed (abortion;gay marriage).

When America was founded, the idea was 'less government'. The colonists were escaping Britain where the government was oppressive. They wanted to establish a nation that did not want it's citizens to be under a burden of excessive governmental control, and to be self-sufficient.

Well America has flip-flopped that ideal. More people THAN EVER rely on the government for various types of support, which has allowed the government to have more control over it's citizens. This is not what America was intended to be.

Well, thank you for your reply SO.

[dan]

REV 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

REV 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear:
REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

REV 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
REV 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

JAS 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1TIM 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

1COR 10:28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:

ACTS 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
ACTS 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

[oscarkipling]

REV 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

REV 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear:
REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

REV 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
REV 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

JAS 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1TIM 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

1COR 10:28 But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof:

ACTS 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
ACTS 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

could you please explain how these verses relate to the topic of this thread?

[dan]

could you please explain how these verses relate to the topic of this thread?

In the first verse we have Jesus telling us how to treat the "Whore Of Babylon". As she is depicted murdering Christians, we should render unto her double.

Next we have common murderers and their punishment, which is brought from the Old Testament and reaffirmed.

These first two should be done as a nation.

The third one is a Prophecy, but does show what God will expect of His Saints.

Numbers four, five and six are personal responsibilities.

In my opinion, all of these are, or should be, a part of any Christian's social conscience and political agenda. Of course, I might be asserting Bible verses that are not popular.

[oscarkipling]

In the first verse we have Jesus telling us how to treat the "Whore Of Babylon". As she is depicted murdering Christians, we should render unto her double.

Next we have common murderers and their punishment, which is brought from the Old Testament and reaffirmed.

These first two should be done as a nation.

The third one is a Prophecy, but does show what God will expect of His Saints.

Numbers four, five and six are personal responsibilities.

In my opinion, all of these are, or should be, a part of any Christian's social conscience and political agenda. Of course, I might be asserting Bible verses that are not popular.

thank you very much

[ServantofTruth]

vuddup Gulah...yep i'm still hangin around

lets see though, the atrocities during the crusades are one of the fist things that I think of. the persecution Jewish people throughout history by Christians. the Inquisitions and witch trials. The Irish protestant v catholic terrors. American slave owners...the Phelpies...idk stuff like that...I know that they weren't "real" Christians, but they thought/think they were/are.

As a Christian i associate myself with Jesus Christ and his Word the bible. I can't answer for the actions of Christians in my town, country, continent or Worldwide at this time - and even less in history.

From what you know of Jesus Christ and the bible - do these things you mention sound Christian?

You must focus on accepting, or rejecting, the sacrifice on the cross of Jesus Christ. You are imperfect/ a sinner. He is the Way to God/ eternal life. Love SofTy.