Poll shows support for torture among Southern evangelicals

[tango]

God was and is all knowing. He did not need to extract information from the enemy. He already knew the information. He had no need to use torture to extract vital intelligence. If your "common sense" says do not torture one man to save the lives of 500,000 innocent men, women, and children; then I would argue as to whether that was truly common sense.

So taking the previous example of the device hidden in Manhatten. Let's also assume you can be 100% sure that you've got the man who knows where it's hidden (practically speaking even that's unlikely, but for now we'll assume you've managed it).

So you torture your man to reveal where it is. What's to say he's going to give you the right information anyway? Say he directs the ground crews to Grand Central so you start the search there. After a couple of hours the device in the Empire State Building wipes out the whole of Manhatten. If he's gone to the trouble of getting such a device into place at all he's not going to roll over and say precisely where it is at first, he's most likely more than willing (and possibly actively desiring) to die for the cause in the process.

How exactly has torture helped you here?

[Reynolds357]

So taking the previous example of the device hidden in Manhatten. Let's also assume you can be 100% sure that you've got the man who knows where it's hidden (practically speaking even that's unlikely, but for now we'll assume you've managed it).

So you torture your man to reveal where it is. What's to say he's going to give you the right information anyway? Say he directs the ground crews to Grand Central so you start the search there. After a couple of hours the device in the Empire State Building wipes out the whole of Manhatten. If he's gone to the trouble of getting such a device into place at all he's not going to roll over and say precisely where it is at first, he's most likely more than willing (and possibly actively desiring) to die for the cause in the process.

How exactly has torture helped you here?

This example proves that you do not understand the fundamentals of torture. The consequences for misinformation are to be so extreme that the person does not dare give wrong information. However, in the example you cited, you merely send one team to the location that was givne to you by the suspect. You do not cease your other areas of investigation and rely solely on the information provided you by this one person. However, this person is now an extra avenue of information.

Did water boarding work? Yes, it did. We obtained much useful information using this tactic. Was it torture? That is debatable. However, the ones who oppose the use of torture do say that water boarding is torture. Waterboarding has given us vast amounts of RELIABLE information. Waterboarding is a kinder version of a torture used in Central America for 50+ years now. It is highly effective. The dosage of pain and fear can be applied slowly and in a controlled manner. The person is quite aware of the low level of pain and fear that they are experiencing in the early interrogation. They are also very much aware that this agony can be increased a thousand fold if they dare give wrong information. What is so beneficial about this tactic is that it can be used to inflict massive pain for extremely long periods of time with no real danger of killing the person. The person from a military in Central America who informed me of this technique says it is 100% effective to date. He said there is not one person it has failed to break.

I think the I.D.F. has a much better success rate of obtaining information during their "interrogations" than we do. You might call what they do "torture." The liberal Democrats would call it torture anyway.

[Reynolds357]

That is exactly why I said in an earlier post about God handing the enemy over to us. If we were to utilize prophets today and fight and kill only those we're directed to... no need to torture.

500,000 people isn't even a blip on God's radar... when He returns He'll be slaughtering billions. So for us to justify torture to "save" 500,000... why? To make "us" feel better? Let's do 1 thing wrong to make a big right and the wrong won't matter?

The 500,000 people are our 500,000 people. There lies the difference. In my opinion, the agonizing death of one terrorist is justified to save the lives of 500,000 innocent people. The massive slaughter that will happen during our Savior's return is of the people waging war agains His chosen people. Islamic terrorists are waging war against the Jew, His chosen people. If Jesus will make the blood flow to the horses bridle to protect His chosen people(kill hundreds of millions), then surely we can torture one or two if need be to save the lives of the innocent and indirectly protect Israel, His chosen people.

[IPet2_9]

Islamic terrorists are waging war against the Jew, His chosen people.

Nopers. Christians are God's chosen people.

I Peter 2:9 But YOU are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.[/quote]


It's interesting how support for torture stems from a belief that Jews are God's chosen people, though. Neither belief has any Scriptural support, but it's interesting.

[tango]

This example proves that you do not understand the fundamentals of torture. The consequences for misinformation are to be so extreme that the person does not dare give wrong information. However, in the example you cited, you merely send one team to the location that was givne to you by the suspect. You do not cease your other areas of investigation and rely solely on the information provided you by this one person. However, this person is now an extra avenue of information.

So our man takes the precaution of a cyanide pill before planting his device? If someone is willing to die for their cause they probably expect it to hurt along the way, and if someone has gone to the trouble of planning the destruction of an entire city they would probably also go to the trouble of implementing their own Plan B in case they were captured.

You're also assuming you have the luxury of lots of time. If you had that kind of time you could send in teams with Geiger counters. Not only that but given the threat of multiple attacks you can't even be sure you've taken your suspect somewhere safe to torture him in the first place.

[Fenris]

Nopers. Christians are God's chosen people.

The point here is the sanctity of all human life.

[tango]

The point here is the sanctity of all human life.

Except for the guy being tortured, presumably

[IPet2_9]

Except for the guy being tortured, presumably

At first glance, it does. But really, it's the whole people-group not being respected. That's why I pointed out that R's belief in torture stems from his belief in Jews as God's chosen people ... vs. the "Islamic terrorists". It shows an underlying lack of sanctity for human life, in the case of Muslims. That's a good way to send us all into WW3. This is not to single out R at all; this is a prevailing attitude among many American conservatives.

[Fenris]

Except for the guy being tortured, presumably

#1 He isn't being killed
#2 He is trying to kill others

To say the comfort of a murderer takes precedence over the lives of his victims is in my opinion inverted morality.

[Fenris]

At first glance, it does. But really, it's the whole people-group not being respected.

No, it isn't. I don't care if the terrorist is Muslim or Christian or Jewish or atheist.

[tango]

#1 He isn't being killed
#2 He is trying to kill others

To say the comfort of a murderer takes precedence over the lives of his victims is in my opinion inverted morality.

Don't forget we're talking about a suspect, and also their future psychological well-being. Or does a lifetime of PTSD not count if we mistakenly thought someone was actually someone else?

[Fenris]

Don't forget we're talking about a suspect

As I've said many times, I would expect a pretty high level of proof. Not just someone who's a suspect.

[Reynolds357]

Nopers. Christians are God's chosen people.

I Peter 2:9 But YOU are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

It's interesting how support for torture stems from a belief that Jews are God's chosen people, though. Neither belief has any Scriptural support, but it's interesting.[/quote]

NOPERS. Read the Book of Revelation. God's redemption plan for His Chosen people begins. He raises witnesses from the 12 tribes of Israel to preach to His people the message of Salvation. God extended His covenant to the Church, but the church NEVER REPLACED THE JEWISH people. Replacement theology as John Hagee so eloquently put it is a "doctrine of devils."

[Reynolds357]

So our man takes the precaution of a cyanide pill before planting his device? If someone is willing to die for their cause they probably expect it to hurt along the way, and if someone has gone to the trouble of planning the destruction of an entire city they would probably also go to the trouble of implementing their own Plan B in case they were captured.

You're also assuming you have the luxury of lots of time. If you had that kind of time you could send in teams with Geiger counters. Not only that but given the threat of multiple attacks you can't even be sure you've taken your suspect somewhere safe to torture him in the first place.

I am assuming we do not have much time at all. That is the reason quick detection is vital. Assuming the person does commit suicide, then they are dead. Assuming they do not, then they are a valuable intelligence tool.

[tango]

I am assuming we do not have much time at all. That is the reason quick detection is vital. Assuming the person does commit suicide, then they are dead. Assuming they do not, then they are a valuable intelligence tool.

If you don't have much time your man can afford to play for time, knowing that if he sends the search team on a wild goose chase the device will detonate before they find it.

Someone wanting to wipe out an entire city is probably willing to deal with pain before death, if it means taking down the city as part of the deal. Also if you're talking about an organised enemy there are probably many devices in many cities, with no one individual knowing about more than one of them.