Poll shows support for torture among Southern evangelicals

[NHL Fever]

A good investigator should be able to tell the difference between an acquaintance and a co-conspirator.

In the war on terror, torture may be the means to determine that.

[tt1106]

From an idealogical standpoint: I can't imagine God telling his people that torture is fine as long as there is an imminent threat to the nation. I can't imagine winning converts by submitting them to torture.
In the end if it's God's will that we die in a terror attack, then nothing we can do can stop it. As a Christian, I cannot condone torture. I will praise God for his will in my life even if that means my death. If it means the death of many, then so be it, I will exalt the Lord and ask for guidance on what he wants me to learn from this tragedy.
I don't want to sound esoteric or disingenuous, but didn't Jesus say, If a man steals your shirt, will you not give him your tunic too?
I remember reading the story of Brother Yun in a Chinese prison. And the prisoners were laughing hysterically every time the guard would beat them. They were laughing because they had just heard about "turning the other cheek". The guard came to them and stopped beating them, telling them, You Christians are crazy!
I want a Faith like that!

[Fenris]

In the war on terror, torture may be the means to determine that.

Um, that's outside the guidelines of what the US government will do.

[Fenris]

From an idealogical standpoint: I can't imagine God telling his people that torture is fine as long as there is an imminent threat to the nation. I can't imagine winning converts by submitting them to torture.

It's not about winning converts. It's about saving lives.

In the end if it's God's will that we die in a terror attack, then nothing we can do can stop it.

So we shouldn't have smashed the Nazis?

As a Christian, I cannot condone torture. I will praise God for his will in my life even if that means my death. If it means the death of many, then so be it, I will exalt the Lord and ask for guidance on what he wants me to learn from this tragedy.

Maybe the Lord wants you to do what you have to in order to save human lives.

I don't want to sound esoteric or disingenuous, but didn't Jesus say, If a man steals your shirt, will you not give him your tunic too?

That lesson was to you as an individual, not to society as a whole. Or maybe you think criminals should roam free too?

I remember reading the story of Brother Yun in a Chinese prison. And the prisoners were laughing hysterically every time the guard would beat them. They were laughing because they had just heard about "turning the other cheek". The guard came to them and stopped beating them, telling them, You Christians are crazy!
I want a Faith like that!

Easy to say when you aren't the one being beaten.

[tt1106]

It's not about winning converts. It's about saving lives.

I'm aware. I still think it's called converting if you come from another religion and since the entire dialog was about terrorism, which is usually or has been discussed as being islamic fundamentalist, converts seemed appropriate although I get that salvation would be what they are winning.

So we shouldn't have smashed the Nazis?

Did we do that with torture? If so, then maybe not.

Maybe the Lord wants you to do what you have to in order to save human lives.

I can't imagine the Lord condoning something like torture for any human purpose or consideration.

That lesson was to you as an individual, not to society as a whole. Or maybe you think criminals should roam free too?

I think the lesson was to each individual Christian. Although I recognize that much of the world is not Christian. The Lord believes in Justice too, but I wonder how much you'd support torture if it was our troops in the American Army getting tortured by Iraqi's to gain information on our next attack.

Easy to say when you aren't the one being beaten.

I've had those moments in my life. I trust the Lord that when push comes to shove, the his strength will carry me through.
I pray every day for more persecution, to wake up those that have taken God for granted. So maybe I'll get the chance to find out.
Blessing Brother Fenris, Thank You for the response.

[Fenris]

I'm aware. I still think it's called converting if you come from another religion and since the entire dialog was about terrorism, which is usually or has been discussed as being islamic fundamentalist, converts seemed appropriate although I get that salvation would be what they are winning.

Uh, I don't get it.

Did we do that with torture? If so, then maybe not.

We did what we had to do to win. That included executing spies and bombing cities.

I can't imagine the Lord condoning something like torture for any human purpose or consideration.

The Lord specifically commanded us not to stand by our brother's blood. That means if you have to opportunity to save a human life, and you don't, then you have sinned.

I think the lesson was to each individual Christian. Although I recognize that much of the world is not Christian.

I don't understand.

The Lord believes in Justice too, but I wonder how much you'd support torture if it was our troops in the American Army getting tortured by Iraqi's to gain information on our next attack.

Uh, they did torture and behead out troops.

I've had those moments in my life. I trust the Lord that when push comes to shove, the his strength will carry me through.

Fair enough.

I pray every day for more persecution, to wake up those that have taken God for granted. So maybe I'll get the chance to find out.

Uh, what?

Blessing Brother Fenris, Thank You for the response.

The pleasure was all mine.

[tango]

No system is perfect. People die while having surgery too. Should we stop all operations because occasionally they go bad?

Of course not, people undergo surgery knowing the risks. When we leave our home to catch a train most of us expect to get to our destination without being shot dead by anti-terror police.

[Fenris]

When we leave our home to catch a train most of us expect to get to our destination without being shot dead by anti-terror police.

And if you don't associate with terrorists, you won't have any problems.

[tango]

Did you actually read any of my posts above? The whole point of what I have been saying is that anti-terror police shot dead a man who was NOTHING to do with terrorists, who have NEVER associated with terrorists, simply because they made a mistake. The man they shot happened to live in the same apartment block as a suspected terrorist. Last time I checked that didn't count as a crime, nor did it count as "associating" with them.

[Fenris]

Did you actually read any of my posts above? The whole point of what I have been saying is that anti-terror police shot dead a man who was NOTHING to do with terrorists, who have NEVER associated with terrorists, simply because they made a mistake.

Police to occasionally shoot people by accident. In the case you mention, no charges were filed against the police. It's one of the costs we sometimes pay for having a safe society.

[tango]

Police to occasionally shoot people by accident. In the case you mention, no charges were filed against the police. It's one of the costs we sometimes pay for having a safe society.

Safe? It wasn't very safe for Mr de Menezes. So you're happy to write off an innocent man being shot dead in front of dozens of innocent people as "just one of those things".

I'll revert to my original assertion, I hope that you and your family are never the ones shot dead by mistake, or tortured for the information they can never give because the police got it wrong.

[pinky]

I remember back when Pat Robertson said we should assassinate the Venezuelan president, Christians were then starting to say maybe we should. We could avoid another Iraq war and save money. I was absolutely floored that we have come this far.

I hear what you are saying about being floored. I felt the same way after the attacks on Lebanon.

Sadly, it appears that there are so many worldy, carnal, violent, occultic, materialistic things that 'Christians' advocate today that I too am floored........................... and full of grief.


It seems to me that advocating torture really underscores the idea of 'falling away' from Christ.................. Christian love waxing cold..............and those who say "Lord, Lord", but don't really know Him.

I asked for Scriptural support then, too. I never got any. Anyway, I just noticed the striking parallel.

Call me a pessimist but.......I expect this request to be completely ignored and for those who are pro-torture to continue giving human, fear based logic for the duration of this thread.




May the Lord be merciful and give cause for reflection on His Word. May His Words resonate through our thoughts and our souls.


Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.











Pro 10:11 The mouth of a righteous man is a well of life: but violence covereth the mouth of the wicked.













Pro 28:17 A man that doeth violence to the blood of any person shall flee to the pit; let no man stay him.












Luk 3:14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.









Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

[pinky]

Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

[Fenris]

Safe? It wasn't very safe for Mr de Menezes. So you're happy to write off an innocent man being shot dead in front of dozens of innocent people as "just one of those things".

So what's your solution? take guns away from the police?

[pinky]

So what's your solution?

Jesus.............and HIS ways.