from the foundation of the world

[divaD]

I feel I found something rather interesting tonight, well at least for me, it was like a light bulb went off in my head. I'd be interested to hear what others might think. Before we decide it's nothing, which it may very well be, please give it some serious consideration, because I feel that it makes these Scriptures actually make more sense now. Perhaps you will see what I mean, perhaps not, and then perhaps you already understand. Doing a phrase search of "from the foundation of the world", these are the various verses that come up.


Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.



What did I notice tonight? Actually what I noticed was, 3 simple English terms. And these would be "from", "since", and "before".

Let's look at the word "before" first. This is used in John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, and 1 Peter 1:20.
This seems to imply before the foundation of the world existed, which I agree, that's exactly what it means.

Now these other verses don't use the same word "before", they use "from" and "since". We then should be able to deduce that these other verses are not speaking of before the foundation of the world existed but since it has existed, otherwise "before" would have been used in all these other verses as well.

Now look at Hebrews 9:26. This is the only verse that uses the English word "since", but if you look in the Greek, you will find that "from" in the other verses are the same as the word "since" is in Hebrews 9:26.

If you haven't figured at what I'm getting at by now, it's pretty simple. All the verses that contain"from", change that rendering to "this" and see if it doesn't make these verses make more sense. For example.


Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain since the foundation of the world.

Doesn't that make more sense? The Lamb wasn't slain before the foundation of the world existed. The Lamb has been slain since the foundation of the world. IOW, after
the foundation of the world existed. And that's exactly when He was slain.

If you still don't get it, look at this verse.


Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Let's be real here. This verse doesn't make much sense like this, if we define "from" as in before, like some do with Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8. But if we render it like this, then we can see how it makes sense, and why would should render the other verses in the same manner.


Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed since the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Now we can clearly see that it's talking about the blood of every prophet that has been shed since the foundation of the world has existed.

Now here's my point, and it's related to the meaning of Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8. Does this really mean that names were written or not written in the book of life before the foundation of the world existed? If so, then why wasn't the English rendered word "before" used here, which is an entirely different Greek word than the Greek word used for "from"? So the question is, do names get written in the book of life before the foundation of the world ever existed, or do they get written in the book of life since the foundation of the world has existed, as in an ongoing thing? It appears to me it's the latter, but I'm not going on record as claiming it is so, but it sure appears to be so.

With the above in mind, let's look at Revelation 17:8. What is this really saying?

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life "since" the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

It seems simple enough to me. Since the world has began, none of these people have ever been written in the book of life. Why? Because they either have never accepted Christ, or perhaps even, they may believe that they have accepted Christ, but many of these may be those that Christ says to them that He never knew them.

[divaD]

Apparently since no one is commenting one way or the other, perhaps no one sees my point. So let me try it from this perspective, concerning ourselves with the names written in the book of life. Were these names written before the foundation of the world existed, or have they been written after the foundation of the world has existed? What I'm basically getting at, do we get written and or blotted out of in realtime, or did all of this occur before the foundation of the world had ever existed? I'm pretty certain that those that hold to the doctrine of predestination believe it to be the latter. The truth is, this has been how I've always basically seen it as well. Now I'm not so certain.


But after looking at this a little closer "from" doesn't seem to be problem afterall. How "foundation" is defined, this is where the problem with the correct interp seems to lay. In order to come to the correct def, we need to define it according to context. So once again, let's look at Revelation 13:8.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


foundation---katabolE

1) a throwing or laying down

a) the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb

b) of the seed of plants and animals

2) a founding (laying down a foundation)

According to context, the only def that really seems to fit is #1 a throwing or laying down, as in disruptive, Down-Casting. So let's see how this might fit.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the disruption of the world.



world-------kosmos

1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the
heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and
therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures,
etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God
and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19



Perhaps #6 fits best here?

[keck553]

I think the choice is ours.

[My heart's Desire]

Not sure what to think but is an interesting word study. I LIKE word studies! Have to have a closer look when I get time.

[RogerW]

I feel I found something rather interesting tonight, well at least for me, it was like a light bulb went off in my head. I'd be interested to hear what others might think. Before we decide it's nothing, which it may very well be, please give it some serious consideration, because I feel that it makes these Scriptures actually make more sense now. Perhaps you will see what I mean, perhaps not, and then perhaps you already understand. Doing a phrase search of "from the foundation of the world", these are the various verses that come up.

Matthew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

1 Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.



What did I notice tonight? Actually what I noticed was, 3 simple English terms. And these would be "from", "since", and "before".

Let's look at the word "before" first. This is used in John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, and 1 Peter 1:20.
This seems to imply before the foundation of the world existed, which I agree, that's exactly what it means.

Now these other verses don't use the same word "before", they use "from" and "since". We then should be able to deduce that these other verses are not speaking of before the foundation of the world existed but since it has existed, otherwise "before" would have been used in all these other verses as well.

Now look at Hebrews 9:26. This is the only verse that uses the English word "since", but if you look in the Greek, you will find that "from" in the other verses are the same as the word "since" is in Hebrews 9:26.

If you haven't figured at what I'm getting at by now, it's pretty simple. All the verses that contain"from", change that rendering to "this" and see if it doesn't make these verses make more sense. For example.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain since the foundation of the world.

Doesn't that make more sense? The Lamb wasn't slain before the foundation of the world existed. The Lamb has been slain since the foundation of the world. IOW, after
the foundation of the world existed. And that's exactly when He was slain.

If you still don't get it, look at this verse.

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Let's be real here. This verse doesn't make much sense like this, if we define "from" as in before, like some do with Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8. But if we render it like this, then we can see how it makes sense, and why would should render the other verses in the same manner.

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed since the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Now we can clearly see that it's talking about the blood of every prophet that has been shed since the foundation of the world has existed.

Now here's my point, and it's related to the meaning of Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8. Does this really mean that names were written or not written in the book of life before the foundation of the world existed? If so, then why wasn't the English rendered word "before" used here, which is an entirely different Greek word than the Greek word used for "from"? So the question is, do names get written in the book of life before the foundation of the world ever existed, or do they get written in the book of life since the foundation of the world has existed, as in an ongoing thing? It appears to me it's the latter, but I'm not going on record as claiming it is so, but it sure appears to be so.

With the above in mind, let's look at Revelation 17:8. What is this really saying?

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life "since" the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

It seems simple enough to me. Since the world has began, none of these people have ever been written in the book of life. Why? Because they either have never accepted Christ, or perhaps even, they may believe that they have accepted Christ, but many of these may be those that Christ says to them that He never knew them.

Greetings Diva,

"From" or "since" are not the only words we must reconcile in our understanding of when names are written. You must also reconcile "foundation", which is the same rendering in every verse you quote. What does that mean?

Foundation - katabole a deposition, i.e. founding; figuratively, conception:--conceive, foundation.

It's not whether we say the names were written "since" or "from", what does Scripture say?

Re 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation [founding or conception] of the world.

Re 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation [founding or conception] of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

So while it may not be exact to say names were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world, it is absolutely accurate to say names were written in the book of life at the founding or conception of the world.

Rev 13:8 isn't really clear because it can be argued that it was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and not the names written. But the same argument cannot be made regarding Rev 17:8. It helps to look at other translations when it seems we have a poor translation. Here is how Rev 17:8 is translated in the Concordant Version.

The wild beast which you perceived was, and is not, and is about to be ascending out of the abyss and to be going away into destruction. And those dwelling on the earth, whose names are not written on the scroll of life from the disruption of the world, will be marveling, observing the wild beast, seeing that it was, and is not, and will be present.

Darby Translation - Re 17:8 The beast which thou sawest was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go into destruction: and they who dwell on the earth, whose names are not written from the founding of the world in the book of life, shall wonder, seeing the beast, that it was, and is not, and shall be present.

One more thing to consider is how the verse is structured. "Names were not written" or "names are not written" speak in past tense. We can't re-write this to say, "whose names are being written."

Many Blessings,
RW

[The Preacher]

Mat 13:35 from= apo


NT:575
apo (apo'); a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):


(X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.


John 17:24 before = pro

NT:4253
pro (pro); a primary preposition; "fore", i.e. in front of, prior (figuratively, superior) to:


above, ago, before, or ever. In comparison it retains the same significations.

Heb 9:26

since = apo (same as mat 13:35)

1 Peter 1;26 is interesting since it clearly uses "pro" in describing Christ as being preordained BEFORE the foundation of the world.

However there are schools of thought that disagree with the way "katobole en o cosmos" is translated. They actually believed that this statement refers to the destruction of the preadamic world(we get our world catastrophe from the greek word 'katabole" which is rendered as "foundation" in most translations.) They use the preadamic theory as an explanation for the age of the earth. It is somewhat justified by the actual meanings of the hebrew words in the genesis account in gen 1.


However, I think there is a better way to deal with predestination. When you look a the verses dealing with predestination you see that it's not the individual that is predestined but what will take place in the individual.

Lets look at Romans 8:29
Rom 8:29

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

We see there very clearly that those who are foreknown are not predestined to be saved but predestined to go through events to conform them to Christ's image. In short, everybody has the same chance to make a free choice. Oh, sure God does choose individuals. After all Jesus said I chose you 12 and yet one of you is a devil. That shows that being chosen doesn't always guarantee a ticket to heaven. Ask Judas.

[BroRog]

I get it Diva. It's like saying the world has been spinning since the foundation of the world. It's something that began at the beginning and continues even now. Is that it?

[9Marksfan]

I think the choice is ours.

How does that tie in with Eph 1:4, which teaches that the choice was God's? BEFORE the foundation of the world.

[The Preacher]

What it actually says us that we were chosen in him before the foundation of the world That we might be blameless before him in love. This choice only shows God's decision to justify all that accept him by making them holy and blameless by his love. This verse actaully show how awesome forgiveness is and the depth to which it is given but it has been misunderstood to mean that God has chosen one person over another.

[9Marksfan]

However there are schools of thought that disagree with the way "katobole en o cosmos" is translated. They actually believed that this statement refers to the destruction of the preadamic world(we get our world catastrophe from the greek word 'katabole" which is rendered as "foundation" in most translations.)

This is incorrect - katastrophe IS a Greek word that means "overthrow" or literally "down (kata) turn (strophe)" - actually in effect we have made that literal meaning a synonym for catastrophe in our own language eg "some are calling the recent DOWNTURN in the markets a CATASTROPHE" - the word "bole" in katabole is a gentler word, from which we get "bowl" - like the sower sowing seed. Katabole is always used positively, katastrophe negatively - the words are really opposites. When a female is inseminated (one meaning of katabole), it is creative - an overthrow is always destructive. If John had meant the Fall in Rev 13:8 and 17:8, then he would have used katastrophe, not katabole.

They use the preadamic theory as an explanation for the age of the earth. It is somewhat justified by the actual meanings of the hebrew words in the genesis account in gen 1.

Ah yes, the notorious homage to the old Earth and millions of years of evolution idea known as the "gap theory"....

However, I think there is a better way to deal with predestination. When you look a the verses dealing with predestination you see that it's not the individual that is predestined but what will take place in the individual.

Lets look at Romans 8:29
Rom 8:29

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Actually it's both. See below.

We see there very clearly that those who are foreknown are not predestined to be saved but predestined to go through events to conform them to Christ's image. In short, everybody has the same chance to make a free choice.

But are we really free? How free is a prisoner to get out of jail? Are we not imprisoned by sin and Satan?

Oh, sure God does choose individuals. After all Jesus said I chose you 12 and yet one of you is a devil. That shows that being chosen doesn't always guarantee a ticket to heaven. Ask Judas.

But they were chosen for the office of apostle - choice to a spiritual office doesn't guarantee salvation - THAT was His point.

As far as being chosen to be saved, we were:-

But we are bound to give thanks always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation.... 2 Thess 2:13a NKJV

[The Preacher]

- the word "bole" in katabole is a gentler word, from which we get "bowl" - like the sower sowing seed. Katabole is always used positively, katastrophe negatively - the words are really opposites. When a female is inseminated (one meaning of katabole), it is creative - an overthrow is always destructive. If John had meant the Fall in Rev 13:8 and 17:8, then he would have used katastrophe, not katabole.

foundation: Greek word #2602 katabole (kat-ab-ol-ay'); from #2598 (see below); a deposition, i.e. founding; figuratively, conception: KJV-- conceive, foundation.

Greek word #2598 kataballo (kat-ab-al'-lo); from #2596 (see below) and #906 (see below); to throw down: KJV-- cast down, lay.

This word kataballo is used individually only twice in the Bible:

Every occurrence of kataballo Greek word #2598 in the Bible (KJV):

2 Cor 4:9
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down [kataballo], but not destroyed (KJV)

Heb 6:1
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying [kataballo] again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God (KJV)

Greek word #906 ballo (bal'-lo); a primary verb; to throw (in various applications, more or less violent or intense): KJV-- arise, cast (out), X dung, lay, lie, pour, put (up), send, strike, throw (down), thrust. Compare 4496.

Greek word #2596 kata (kat-ah'); a primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case [genitive case, dative case or accusative case] with which it is joined): KJV-- about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, [charita-] bly, concerning, + covered, [daily-], down, every, (+far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from ... to, godly, in (-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of), ... by, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-) on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+your) X own, + particularly, so, through (-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-) to (-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where (-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution, or intensity.

Hopefully you can see by the in-depth definition of the word translated to "foundation" regarding our study that the word means the overthrow, the destruction of that first earth age and the beginning of the second (our current one). Very little is written in the Bible about that destruction of the first earth age. A couple places that do, are {2nd Pet 3:4-7, and , Jer 4:23-27}. I hope that helps you to understand why there is a division in the middle of {Gen 1:2} across two separate earth ages.

Below, the first earth age is in blue and the second earth age in red:, divided by || for the color blind:

Gen 1:1-2
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. || And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (KJV)

Below is every occurrence of the word katabole (foundation):

Every occurrence of katabole, Greek word #2602 in the Bible (KJV):

Matt 13:35
35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. (KJV)

Matt 25:34
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (KJV)

Luke 11:50
50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; (KJV)

John 17:24
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (KJV)

Eph 1:4
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (KJV)

Heb 4:3
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. (KJV)

Heb 9:26
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (KJV)

Heb 11:11 (THIS ONE IS INTERESTING!)
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. (KJV)

1 Pet 1:20
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, (KJV)

Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (KJV)

Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (KJV)

Below is Appendix #146 from the The Companion Bible that explains this Katabole of the first earth age:


Foundation of the World
This Is Appendix 146 From The Companion Bible.

To arrive at the true meaning of this expression, we must note that there are two words translated "foundation" in the New Testament: (1) themelios, and (2) katabole.

The Noun, themelios, occurs in Luke 6:48-49, 14:29, Acts 16:26, Romans 15:20, 1Corinthians 3:l0-12, Ephesians 2:20, 1Timothy 6:19, 2Timothy 2:19, Hebrews 6:1, 11:10, Revelation 21:14,19. It is never used of the world (kosmos) or the earth (ge). The corresponding Verb (themelioo) occurs in Matthew 7:25, Luke 6:48, Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 1:10 and 1Peter 5:10. The verb is only once used of the earth (ge). Hebrews 1:10.

A comparison of all these passages will show that these are proper and regular terms for the English words "to found", and "foundation".

The Noun, katabole, occurs in Matthew 13:35, 25:34, Luke 11:50, John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, Hebrews 4:3, 9:26 , 11:11, 1Peter 1:20, Revelation 13:8, 17:8 and the corresponding Verb (kataballo) occurs in 2Corinthians 4:9, Hebrews 6:1 and Revelation 12:10.

A comparison of all these passages (especially 2Corinthians 4:9 and Revelation 12:10) will show that kataballo and katabole are not the proper terms for founding and foundation, but the correct meaning is casting down, or overthrow.

Consistency, therefore, calls for the same translation in Hebrews 6:1, where, instead of "not laying again", the rendering should be "not casting down". That is to say, the foundation already laid, of repentance, etc., was not to be cast down or overthrown, but was to be left and progress made unto the perfection.

Accordingly, the Noun katabole, derived from, and cognate with the Verb, ought to be translated "disruption", or "ruin".

The remarkable thing is that in all occurrences (except Hebrews 11:11) the word is connected with "the world" (Greek kosmos. Appendix 129.1), and therefore the expression should be rendered "the disruption (or ruin) of the world", clearly referring to the condition indicated in Genesis 1:2, and described in 2Peter 3:5-6. For the earth was not created tohu (Isaiah 45:18) but became so, as stated in the Hebrew of Genesis 1:2 and confirmed by 2Peter 3:6, where "the world that then was by the word of God" (Genesis 1:1) perished and "the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word" were created (Genesis 2:4), and are "kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment" (2Peter 3:7) which shall usher in the "new heavens and the new earth" of 2Peter 3:13.

"The disruption of the world" is an event forming a great dividing line in the dispensations of the ages. In Genesis 1:1 we have the founding of the world (Hebrews 1:10 = themelioo), but in Genesis 1:2 we have its overthrow.

This is confirmed by a further remarkable fact, that the phrase, which occurs ten times, is associated with the Preposition apo = from (Appendix 104. iv) seven times, and with pro = before (Appendix 104. xiv) three times. The former refers to the kingdom, and is connected with the "counsels" of God; the latter refers to the Mystery (or Secret; See Appendix 193) and is connected with the "purpose" of God (see John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, 1Peter 1:20).

Ample New Testament testimony is thus given to the profoundly significant fact recorded in Genesis 1:2, that "the earth became tohu and bohu (i.e. waste end desolate); and darkness was on the face of the deep", before the creation of "the heavens and the earth which are now" (2Peter 3:7).

Actually it's both. See below.

I missed the "below" that showed your point. Can you repost that?

But they were chosen for the office of apostle - choice to a spiritual office doesn't guarantee salvation - THAT was His point.

As far as being chosen to be saved, we were:-

But we are bound to give thanks always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation.... 2 Thess

You make the classic error of all those who hold your position. That is you take a statement that was clearly applied in a plural sense( see "you" in the greek) and attempt to apply it to singular individuals.

[divaD]

I get it Diva. It's like saying the world has been spinning since the foundation of the world. It's something that began at the beginning and continues even now. Is that it?

LOL! Laughing at myself of course. I'm not sure what I'm trying to say anymore, after reading the other responses in this thread. All of them bring out some excellent points, in which I'm attempting to see how they may or may not apply to Rev 13 and 17. Even tho preacher also made some excellent points, I don't buy the idea of a prev earth age, as in gap. I don't believe that's taught anywhere in the Bible.

But now I see 3 possibilities since reviewing what RW wrote. 1. Names were written in the book of life before the world existed. 2. Names were written in the book of life when the world first existed. 3. Names were written in the book of life since the world has existed, and continues to be written as in on ongoing sense. Perhaps there's even more possibilities. I sure hope not, as this may prove hard enough to sort out as is.

[BroRog]

LOL! Laughing at myself of course. I'm not sure what I'm trying to say anymore, after reading the other responses in this thread. All of them bring out some excellent points, in which I'm attempting to see how they may or may not apply to Rev 13 and 17. Even tho preacher also made some excellent points, I don't buy the idea of a prev earth age, as in gap. I don't believe that's taught anywhere in the Bible.

But now I see 3 possibilities since reviewing what RW wrote. 1. Names were written in the book of life before the world existed. 2. Names were written in the book of life when the world first existed. 3. Names were written in the book of life since the world has existed, and continues to be written as in on ongoing sense. Perhaps there's even more possibilities. I sure hope not, as this may prove hard enough to sort out as is.

If the book of life documents who is alive at any one point, then to be born is to be written in the book of life. To die is to be erased from the book of life.

What is the book of life? Is that how it works?

[divaD]

One more thing to consider is how the verse is structured. "Names were not written" or "names are not written" speak in past
tense. We can't re-write this to say, "whose names are being written."

RW, you mentioned paying attention to sentence structure also. I agree, even tho I sometimes have a hard enough time understanding sentence stucture in the English language, let alone the Greek or Hebrew, in which I'm pretty much clueless there. I noticed that you seem to be suggesting, that since the text in Rev 13 and 17 states "are not written", "were not written", that this means as in the past only.


Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world


What I notice here is this, by trying to observe the sentence structure also. The text states "whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Notice the "are" here. It doesn't state "were" as in the past.

Now look at Revelation 17:8.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is


Here we see just the opposite. The text states "whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world". This time it states they were not written, instead of are not written. The reason for that being, if one looks at this verse, this is something that has already occured after the fact, the fact being Rev 13:8. Notice what it states here at the end of the verse. "when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is". Why does it state this? Because "behold" here seems to imply to discern. Why? Because we're told that this beast goes into perdition. The ones that worshipped now sees it for what it is, except now it's too late, because they were never written in the book of life, because they worshipped this beast instead of God.

[divaD]

If the book of life documents who is alive at any one point, then to be born is to be written in the book of life. To die is to be erased from the book of life.

What is the book of life? Is that how it works?

I was always under the impression that the book of life is referring to eternal everlasting life, and to be not written in it, means that one will end up in the lake of fire, which is the second death.