Why I disagree with the pre-tribulation rapture

[Dragonfighter1]

Referring back to the original post, this is also why I disagree with the pre-trib view, (as well as the mainstream concept of "the rapture")

John, when writing to the seven churches, implies that the "Tribulation" had already begun.
Rev. 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

He doesn't lead us to believe that the "tribulation" would be a "far future" event. He tells his readers that he is also in the tribulation with them.

Tribulation and "The Great Tribulation" are two entirely different things. Its from the Greek "qliyei thlipsis" Meaning difficulty.

You could say it this way: We all have difficulties daily but a time is coming known as "the Great Difficulty"

[markdrums]

Tribulation and "The Great Tribulation" are two entirely different things. Its from the Greek "qliyei thlipsis" Meaning difficulty.

You could say it this way: We all have difficulties daily but a time is coming known as "the Great Difficulty"

Actually it's never described as "THE Great Tribulation"..... Only as "great tribulation"...

It's not a specific, singular, "major catastrophic event".....
Also, to note; in Mat. 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
You do realize that Jesus is using hyperbole here... right? Otherwise, he would be in direct contradiction with God's promise after the flood; which was the catastrophic event of all catastrophic events.

Jesus was emphasizing the point that things would soon be incredibly difficult for his followers.... worse than THEY PERSONALLY had ever experienced, or ever would again.

[Dragonfighter1]

Actually it's never described as "THE Great Tribulation"..... Only as "great tribulation"...

It's not a specific, singular, "major catastrophic event".....
Also, to note; in Mat. 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
You do realize that Jesus is using hyperbole here... right? Otherwise, he would be in direct contradiction with God's promise after the flood; which was the catastrophic event of all catastrophic events.

Jesus was emphasizing the point that things would soon be incredibly difficult for his followers.... worse than THEY PERSONALLY had ever experienced, or ever would again.

Your point is well made. The definite article is absent. Good catch.

However Trib and Great trib are two different things in these contexts, right?

[Diggindeeper]

You are welcome.

Don't be pre-trib just for the sake of getting along with those around you. I appreciate the fact that you are challenging them. If they can't give you sufficient reason to believe their position from the Scriptures, then IMO you are under no obligation to accept what they say just on the basis of them saying it. Examine it for yourself.

Here's a couple of passages that are foundational to the pre-trib position as I hold it:

Quote:
Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

In these verses you have Jesus clearly stating that His Ministry while on this earth, as well as that of His disciples, was focused on Israel. Yet how many times have I seen people from various end times' camps take statements that Jesus made to Israel and apply them to the Church! Most often when I have challenged this, the answer I get is that they also apply to the Church. But the Church didn't exist when Jesus made these statements. And again, Jesus was talking first to Israel.

My point in all this is that if you seriously desire to know the Truth about the end times, you have to apply things in the Gospels properly. And according to Jesus, that means His statements were directed to Israel. Getting back to what I told you about the resurrections, Jesus was teaching two separate resurrections to Israel here:

One of life, one of judgment. When Paul mentioned the order of resurrections in 1 Cor 15, he only taught one to the Church, and said it was the next in the order, the resurrection of dead Church saints when the one time gathering/changing of the Church takes place...in the air. Neither of the resurrections in Revelation 20 or any other one in that book mentions a changing of live saints which occurs with it (them).

I already gave you residual proof that the saints in Rev 20:6 can't be Church saints. But now you know the foundation I laid that proof on.

IBWatching, to me, this is a prime example of why we should NOT pull out ONE verse and form a doctrinal statement about it. First of all, we know from reading all scripture that Jesus was not sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel. He was sent that ALL might be saved. Here is the verse you selected, included in context of exactly what happened:

Matthew 15:21-
21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Jesus spoke by his actions here. He DID hear the woman who was not of the lost sheep of Israel, and he did respond, just as he always does, not only to the lost sheep of Israel, but to whosoever!

I offer that this one verse you quoted is useless to the pre-trib proof.

[quiet dove]

It doesn't mean that at all. It simply means that if a post tribber remains watchful and faithful, when the Lord returns He won't be coming upon him/her as a thief. Why? Because they have been watchful, remained faithful and haven't gone apostate like so many others will do. Notice what Jesus said in Revelation 3:1-6. This passage, in an indirect manner, is also referring to apostacy, since this would be the opposite result of those heeding these warnings.

Another thought comes to mind here, and that's how pre-tribbers are contradicting themselves. All of us should agree that it's not a good thing for the Lord to come upon us like a thief in the night. So what do you actually think occurs in a pre-trib rapture? The Lord would be coming upon you as a thief in the night, since no one would have a clue when it supposedly occurs. How does one remain watchful for a pre-trib rapture? This whole idea contradicts everything written in Scripture concerning the return of the Lord.

Pre trib is not contradicting itself, the Lord coming as a thief in the night is not a surprise to the pre tribber, but to the world who realizes that a good number of folks apparently just got stolen from the earth by something. A thief in the night refers to the effect on the non believer, not the pre tribber who is watching. So the whole idea is not contradicting scripture when an accurate description of the idea is put forth.

[markdrums]

Your point is well made. The definite article is absent. Good catch.

However Trib and Great trib are two different things in these contexts, right?

I'd say to some extent, Yes. There's a difference.... Tribulation in general is definetly an everyday thing for all of us... even today.

GREAT Tribulation, as described in Matthew & Revelation, was something Jesus' disciples & followers in the first century, would go through. It would be tribulation, with "the heat cranked up"... (that's the best I can think of at the moment.. LOL!)

It was the persecution of Christians under the reign of Ceasar, that was "just around the corner". They had never faced anything to that extent before.... and wouldn't again afterwards.

The Roman Empire was BRUTAL! Especially under NERO, and later, Titus. Christians were hung on stakes, & covered in tar & lit on fire alive... to light the path for Caesar & his men. Things like that were the most intense "tribulation" they had ever experienced.

So, to sum it up... yeah, there's a difference in general, between the two. But "Great Tribulation" described the viscious, brutal, intense troubles of the early believers..... which is who John was writing to, & Jesus was speaking to....

Make sense?

[Dragonfighter1]

WHo are the lost sheep?

I posted this question in another thread and got only a few responses.

Is it Jews who are looking, or not looking. Is it Jews who are in the temple doing the sacrifices sincerely and correctly. It seems Jesus spent a lot of time trying to convince the pharasees even. So just who are the lost sheep?

[Diggindeeper]

Dragonfighter - The Holy Spirit will be removed before the coming of the antichrist (rapture). So if you're a christian, at that point you will already be gone.

Sometime after the H.S. leaves and the antichrist is revealed, He will come back once people begin to become saved again.

Uh...where in the Bible do I find this?
(Sometime after the H.S. leaves and the antichrist is revealed, He will come back once people begin to become saved again.)

[Dragonfighter1]

I'd say to some extent, Yes. There's a difference.... Tribulation in general is definetly an everyday thing for all of us... even today.

GREAT Tribulation, as described in Matthew & Revelation, was something Jesus' disciples & followers in the first century, would go through. It would be tribulation, with "the heat cranked up"... (that's the best I can think of at the moment.. LOL!)

It was the persecution of Christians under the reign of Ceasar, that was "just around the corner". They had never faced anything to that extent before.... and wouldn't again afterwards.

The Roman Empire was BRUTAL! Especially under NERO, and later, Titus. Christians were hung on stakes, & covered in tar & lit on fire alive... to light the path for Caesar & his men. Things like that were the most intense "tribulation" they had ever experienced.

So, to sum it up... yeah, there's a difference in general, between the two. But "Great Tribulation" described the viscious, brutal, intense troubles of the early believers..... which is who John was writing to, & Jesus was speaking to....

Make sense?

I regret to admit... you have shaken a few of my foundations.....I must study this. Your point seems cogent...which makes it all the more difficult for me!

[divaD]

I'd say to some extent, Yes. There's a difference.... Tribulation in general is definetly an everyday thing for all of us... even today.

GREAT Tribulation, as described in Matthew & Revelation, was something Jesus' disciples & followers in the first century, would go through. It would be tribulation, with "the heat cranked up"... (that's the best I can think of at the moment.. LOL!)

It was the persecution of Christians under the reign of Ceasar, that was "just around the corner". They had never faced anything to that extent before.... and wouldn't again afterwards.

The Roman Empire was BRUTAL! Especially under NERO, and later, Titus. Christians were hung on stakes, & covered in tar & lit on fire alive... to light the path for Caesar & his men. Things like that were the most intense "tribulation" they had ever experienced.

So, to sum it up... yeah, there's a difference in general, between the two. But "Great Tribulation" described the viscious, brutal, intense troubles of the early believers..... which is who John was writing to, & Jesus was speaking to....

Make sense?

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


markdrums, what does Matthew 24:3 mean to you, esp the part I have in bold letters? Doesn't this establish the context in which Jesus starts speaking in? How many ends of the world are there? And if the world already ended some 2000 yrs ago, where's Jesus? Why isn't He already here reigning forever and ever on this planet?

[wesand24]

Don't buy into the "great tribulation" occured in the first century stuff!!
Anyone can die for their faith such as in the first century, but it will be at a certain time when they die for their faith when a star falls from the sky, the sea and rivers turn to blood, 1/3 of mankind is killed, war is rampant on the earth, water is turned to poison, men are scorched with heat, sun and moon will not give light, etc. etc. The first century martyrs experienced none of this. And passages in Matt. 24 and all throughout revelation describe tribulation (judgment) as if it is not written as though believers would be the only ones experiencing it, in fact it is judgment for sin, the unrepentant, and wicked of the world. It is what is called the "day of the LORD".
There was a word of the LORD that came to Joel that would have immediate impact for Judah and future impact for Judah and the entire world. The theme of the book is the “Day of the LORD”. It is a reference to God's righteous judgment upon His people and those who are opposed to Him. The specific term, “Day of the LORD” is mentioned five times in Joel, but references to that period are referred to other times by the prophet.
The day of the LORD is not just a time of doom, but of great celebration for the people of God, and those who repent during “the day of the LORD” itself. “The LORD will answer and say to His people, Behold, I will send you grain and new wine and oil, and you will be satisfied by them; I will no longer make you a reproach among the nations.” God will open the minds of Israel, and they will know their Messiah. In that day God “will pour out His Spirit,” a fulfillment yet to be completed. There shall be deliverance in Jerusalem among the remnant whom the LORD calls. Zechariah 12:10 says, “I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication;” For the called of God this time will be a time of great intimacy with the Lord.
The “day of the LORD” is not unique to the prophecy of Joel. The term is mentioned nineteen explicit times in the Old Testament. It is also referred to in Obadiah, Amos, Isaiah, Zephaniah, Ezekiel, Zechariah, and Malachi. There are also four explicit mentions of the term in the New Testament in Acts, I Thessalonians, II Thessalonians, and II Peter.
The time of the “day of the LORD” apparently has a time frame spanning from the rapture of the church(or beginning of the tribulation, depending upon your belief) until the final judgment of Satan at the end of the millennium, though one should not be dogmatic about this. Nevertheless, judgment will fall preceding the millennium and at the end of the millennium. The tribulation period will fall before the millennium and after the millennium Satan will be taken from the bottomless pit and thrown into the lake of fire.
Six times it is referred to as the “day of doom” and four times the “day of vengeance”. The New Testament calls it a day of “wrath,” day of “visitation,” and the “great day of God Almighty.” This time for the unrepentant and unbelieving will be a time of terrifying judgments from God for the overwhelming sinfulness of the world.
When Paul says, “the Lord so comes as a thief in the night” he is not referring to the rapture of the church, but to Christ coming in judgment. Jesus says to watch, and we are always to watch for him in every way. Watch and see where He is working, watch for Him to move in your life, watch for His coming for His church, watch for opportunities for Him to use you, watch and listen for His voice, watch over one another, watch unto prayer, watch and repent, watch for His judgments, and continue to watch in all things. Christ says to the church in Sardis that, “if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.”

[markdrums]

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


markdrums, what does Matthew 24:3 mean to you, esp the part I have in bold letters? Doesn't this establish the context in which Jesus starts speaking in? How many ends of the world are there? And if the world already ended some 2000 yrs ago, where's Jesus? Why isn't He already here reigning forever and ever on this planet?

Good question.

Here's what I think needs to be pointed out.
Mat 21:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The CONTEXTof Matthew 24 is about the temple & the coming destruction... and the end of the AGE (Of temple sacrifices)
Jesus gave them specific information about what THEY PERSONALLY would see... THEIR generation. These were the "signs" that the destruction of the temple, & end of the sacrificial age were just around the corner.

Jesus then proceeds to tell them THEY will hear of wars & rumors of wars. THEY would see the abomination of desolation, THEY would be delivered up, & killed & hated for Jesus' name.

He said THEIR generation would not pass until these things be fulfilled.... which DID occur when Titus destroyed the temple in 70 AD.

That's the actual context of Matthew 24.


Hope that helps.

[IBWatching]

Good question.

Here's what I think needs to be pointed out.
Mat 21:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The CONTEXTof Matthew 24 is about the temple & the coming destruction... and the end of the AGE (Of temple sacrifices)
Jesus gave them specific information about what THEY PERSONALLY would see... THEIR generation. These were the "signs" that the destruction of the temple, & end of the sacrificial age were just around the corner.

Jesus then proceeds to tell them THEY will hear of wars & rumors of wars. THEY would see the abomination of desolation, THEY would be delivered up, & killed & hated for Jesus' name.

He said THEIR generation would not pass until these things be fulfilled.... which DID occur when Titus destroyed the temple in 70 AD.

That's the actual context of Matthew 24.


Hope that helps.

Matthew 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory...34 "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

In context, that "generation" would also see the Coming of Jesus Christ. That did not happen in 70AD.

[markdrums]

I regret to admit... you have shaken a few of my foundations.....I must study this. Your point seems cogent...which makes it all the more difficult for me!

Believe me! I completely understand what you're saying!!
I had soooo many questions about what I grew up being taught, that just didn't quite fit together.....

I had to make myself look at everything with a fresh, unbiased approach & study PERSONALLY.... & accept the fact that I might end up with a different understanding than my childhood foundations were built on.
Mainly because I wanted to know what the Bible REALLY says, instead of relying on my pastor to "tell me".

Yeah, I had to change my views on a few things.
However; the ESSENTIAL Christian doctrine was the same. I at least had THAT in place thankfully! Understanding who GOD is, & his nature. Knowing Who Jesus is, & WHY he came to be my substitue sacrifice....

But the main thing I changed my outlook on is the eschatological view.
It didn't make sense to "Literally" take some parts of scripture, & ignore the "LITERAL" meanings of words like SOON, AT HAND, and NEAR.

But my advice would be this; pray for wisdom, understanding, & guidance about the Word. Then read it. Read it as if it's the first time you've seen it. Don't let previous opinions / beliefs interfere.

Just keep on reading!
The thing is, our eschatological views don't dictate whether we're saved or not. (Which is a good thing! LOL!) But, improper interpretation can cause us to miss a lot of other points in the Bible.
So, yes, it can go beyond our "end times" views if we misinterpret scripture.

All in all, I have to admit I've gotten so much more out of the Bible than I ever did. It's become that book that just amazes me every time I read it!!! I always heard people talk about it as being incredible. But couldn't quite understand what they really meant.

NOW, I know it's more than just stories of "old people" on a big boat, or in a garden, or with long hair & super strength, & being eaten by a whale & so on.... I really "get it" now.

I understand the "types & shadows" of people & events, that paralelled future, ultimate fulfilments through Jesus.

WOW!

Anyway, feel free to message me anytime! I don't know everything.... but I'll help you out with whatever I can. LOL!


God Bless you my friend!!

-Mark

[divaD]

Jesus gave them specific information about what THEY PERSONALLY would see... THEIR generation. These were the
"signs" that the destruction of the temple, & end of the sacrificial age were just around the corner.

Personally, I feel you're misenterpreting what 'generation' means here. You seemed to have the definition confined to as in during that time only. If one looks back into Matt ch 23, one can see how Jesus is defining 'generation' in Matt 24.


Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation



Notice very carefully verse 36. This generation that Jesus is talking about here and in Matt 24 doesn't simply fade into non existence 2000 yrs ago. This is the generation that will not pass unto all things in Matt 24 are fullfilled. There is no way everything in Matt 24 has been fullfilled. This generation of evil doers started as far back as Abel. The generation that Jesus is speaking of is the generation of evil doers that have killed all of God's chosen vessels since the beginning of time and who continue to do so up until the end of time. This is how I feel generation is being defined here, and not as a certain period of time, such as 70 yrs, or whatever a generation consists of.

Verse 33 pretty much describes what kind of generation they are. They're a generation of vipers. This generation would have to go farther back into the past, and farther into the future, than just during that time only. Basically we're seeing a lineage here of evil doers. IOW, a generation of them.