Why I disagree with the pre-tribulation rapture

[markdrums]

Personally, I feel you're misenterpreting what 'generation' means here. You seemed to have the definition confined to as in during that time only. If one looks back into Matt ch 23, one can see how Jesus is defining 'generation' in Matt 24.


Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation



Notice very carefully verse 36. This generation that Jesus is talking about here and in Matt 24 doesn't simply fade into non existence 2000 yrs ago. This is the generation that will not pass unto all things in Matt 24 are fullfilled. There is no way everything in Matt 24 has been fullfilled. This generation of evil doers started as far back as Abel. The generation that Jesus is speaking of is the generation of evil doers that have killed all of God's chosen vessels since the beginning of time and who continue to do so up until the end of time. This is how I feel generation is being defined here, and not as a certain period of time, such as 70 yrs, or whatever a generation consists of.

Verse 33 pretty much describes what kind of generation they are. They're a generation of vipers. This generation would have to go farther back into the past, and farther into the future, than just during that time only. Basically we're seeing a lineage here of evil doers. IOW, a generation of them.

I think it would have been confusing to the people Jesus was speaking to if he meant a future generation, rather than THEIR OWN PERSONAL generation.

He explicitly used the pronoun YOU when talking to them. They would have understood this as such.

The apsotles also would have found it confusing if Jesus had a far-future generation in mind, after telling them dozens of times, YOU... & THIS generation.

Also to keep in consideration, the context in Matthew 23. Jesus is speaking TO the scribes & Pharisees, saying "Woe unto YOU...."

The things that Jesus said would take place in THEIR lifetime / genration WERE FULFILLED... just as he said they would be.

Yes, the same types of people have lived before their generation & still do to this day. But the prophecies were directed TO them & that's who Jesus was speaking directly to.

Everything from Mat 24:1 - 24:34 HAVE been fulfilled. If you notice, Jesus does change the perspective in verse 35; And in verse 36, he describes "the last day... & his second coming".... He makes a transition in context.....
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

This event, the "second coming", is still yet to be fulfilled.
That hasn't happend yet. I agree with that.

But not EVERYTHING in Matthew 23 & 24 is about the second coming & last day.

Know what I mean?

[divaD]

I think it would have been confusing to the people Jesus was speaking to if he meant a future generation, rather than THEIR OWN PERSONAL generation.

He explicitly used the pronoun YOU when talking to them. They would have understood this as such.

The apsotles also would have found it confusing if Jesus had a far-future generation in mind, after telling them dozens of times, YOU... & THIS generation.

Also to keep in consideration, the context in Matthew 23. Jesus is speaking TO the scribes & Pharisees, saying "Woe unto YOU...."

The things that Jesus said would take place in THEIR lifetime / genration WERE FULFILLED... just as he said they would be.

Yes, the same types of people have lived before their generation & still do to this day. But the prophecies were directed TO them & that's who Jesus was speaking directly to.

Everything from Mat 24:1 - 24:34 HAVE been fulfilled. If you notice, Jesus does change the perspective in verse 35; And in verse 36, he describes "the last day... & his second coming".... He makes a transition in context.....
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only.

This event, the "second coming", is still yet to be fulfilled.
That hasn't happend yet. I agree with that.

But not EVERYTHING in Matthew 23 & 24 is about the second coming & last day.

Know what I mean?

Hi markdrums. I've chatted with you before, and the truth is, I truly love chatting with you, whether we can agree with one another or not. You claim that everything in Matt 24 has been fullfilled up to verse 35, and at verse 35 Jesus switches perspective. So since He switched perspectives at that point, we should be able to claim that we found the beginning of another passage, with the context being put forth in verse 35. So, we should be able to read verse 35 onwards, and we should know what Jesuse is referring to, even without the preceeding verses in Matt 24.



Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 *And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


Let's take a look at verse 37 first. We just learned in this NEW passage that 'but as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.'

The interesting thing about this, it also talks about the coming of the Son of man in the preceeding verses, except that was from a different perspective, since Jesus supposedly changed perspectives at verse 35.



Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Honestly, I don't know how you can claim that Jesus changes perspective at verse 35, when the text clearly demonstrates that Jesus hasn't changed perspective at all.

[markdrums]

Hi markdrums. I've chatted with you before, and the truth is, I truly love chatting with you, whether we can agree with one another or not. You claim that everything in Matt 24 has been fullfilled up to verse 35, and at verse 35 Jesus switches perspective. So since He switched perspectives at that point, we should be able to claim that we found the beginning of another passage, with the context being put forth in verse 35. So, we should be able to read verse 35 onwards, and we should know what Jesuse is referring to, even without the preceeding verses in Matt 24.



Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 *And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


Let's take a look at verse 37 first. We just learned in this NEW passage that 'but as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.'

The interesting thing about this, it also talks about the coming of the Son of man in the preceeding verses, except that was from a different perspective, since Jesus supposedly changed perspectives at verse 35.



Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Honestly, I don't know how you can claim that Jesus changes perspective at verse 35, when the text clearly demonstrates that Jesus hasn't changed perspective at all.

Hey divaD!
I'm one of those people who believe that iron sharpens iron! So I'm ALWAYS willing to talk about different views & perspectives!


Anyway, I DO see your point in Mat 24:27. My best explanation on that would be this:
Jesus mentions in several instances that "they will see the Son of Man, coming in clouds having great power & glory."

The context here is different than "returning / second coming".
If we refer back to the OLD TESTAMENT, & read the passages that use this same phrase, "coming on clouds"... we learn that it's a Judgment metaphor. The people who convicted Jesus, & ordered his crucifixion were told by Jesus himself that THEY would "see the Son of Man coming on clouds.... "
Those who heard this, understood immediately what Jesus meant. They knew he was speaking of impending Judgment on them, & Jesus' vindication as the TRUE KING.

Check one of the online Bibles & search the word "cloud" or "clouds". See how it's used & what the context is referring to. You'll find it deals with Judgment.

(It should also bring up a mental image of the first time that clouds were ever seen..... Right before the FLOOD.)

So, in essence, The "Coming of the Son of Man" in Matthew 24:27 is also speaking of Judgment upon Jerusalem, & the destruction of the temple.

Which is why I would say that everything in Mat. 24:1-34 have been fulfilled.

[Marc B]

First things first: what led me to start this thread.

Exegesis the interpretation of a text by drawing ideas out of it.

Eisegesis the interpretation of a text by reading into it one's own ideas.

I would like for someone to explain me how this is not eisegesis. Nothing in the text of

After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in
heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet
said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."

depicts the followers of Christ as being raptured. All that we see here is John, an individual being taken to heaven to be given the Revelation itself. The only way a person could interpret this as the rapture of the church is if they read the idea into the text, which is eisegesis, and a bad method of interpreting the Bible. Meaning, the reader is taking a pre-existing idea that they have and pushing it into the text that they're reading. They are not drawing the idea out of it.

For many years (re: my first 17) I believed in the pre-tribulational rapture. Around this time I decided to devote my life for discerning the truth about Biblical matters, with eschatology being a prime focus. After a few years of my research and devotions, I've come to believe that the Bible depicts a post-tribulation rapture. Now, this is not to say that I believe people who believe in the pre-trib. rapture to be without truth... I'm simply saying that when I finally got to doing research for myself, I decided that a different view was a better fit to the Bible - I say this with the intent of conveying the idea that perhaps things aren't always what we first think they are. With that said, I will present the reasons for why I disagree with a pre-tribulation rapture and why I agree with a post-tribulation rapture.

(Note: Because Matthew 24 is an eschatological prophecy about the "end of the age", and is used as a timeline for end-times events, I will necessarily correlate Christian persecution with the tribulation.)

Christ's chronology
Christ made a number of statements regarding His coming and the events that would take place before it, both through direct speech, through prophecies, and through parables.

Matthew 10
In this chapter, Jesus prophecies that His followers would be persecuted and that they would be hated. He directly says that they would "not finish going through the cities of Israel" before the Coming. He does not say that His followers would be whisked away for protection, but warns them of persecution. Jesus makes absolutely no mention of a pre-persecution rapture.

Matthew 13
In this chapter, Jesus tells two similar parables. In one, He describes how a farmer was growing wheat in a field, and the farmer's enemy caused weeds to also grow in the field. Instead of cutting out the weeds right away, the farmer lets them both grow together until the harvest. In the second parable, Jesus describes how fisherman caught "all kinds of fish", but waited until the net was full to take it to shore to sift through. When they made it to shore, they threw out the bad fish, and kept the good ones. Now, the similarities between the two is obvious. So when Jesus provided an explanation for the first parable, it is necessarily the same explanation for the second parable.

Here is Jesus' summary of the parable in proper terms: "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom [of heaven]. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are the angels."

So...

Farmer = Son of Man (Christ)
Good seeds/wheat = sons of the kingdom (righteous)
Bad seeds/weeds = sons of the evil one (wicked)
Enemy = the devil (Satan)

Now let's go and read part of the actual parable:

"Let both [the wheat and the weeds] grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn."

According to the parable, the weeds are the first ones to be taken away. "Let both grow together until the harvest." Meaning "let the good and bad remain in the world until the end of the age." Christ was directly stating that His followers would remain in the world until the Coming, and that when the Coming finally Came, it would be the evil-doers who were cast out first. No pre-tribulation rapture is depicted. The only thing resembling what we would call the rapture is shown as happening after all of the evil-doers have been taken out of the world, if not at the same time, but most certainly it is not shown as happening before.

Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21
Christ's chronology in the Olivet Discourse is perhaps the clearest of all of His prophecies. He states that things will happen in this order:

1. False christs, wars and rumors of wars
2. Nations against nations, kingdoms against kingdoms
3. Famines, earthquakes, pestilences
4. Then persecution of the followers of Christ
5. Apostasy, betrayal, false prophets
6. The gospel preached to all
7. Then the end will come
8. Armies siege Jerusalem, in relation to the "abomination that causes desolation"
9. The destruction of the city of Jerusalem/the temple
10. At that time will be false prophets and false christs to deceive "even the elect"
11. After the distresses will be the darkening of the sun and the moon, and the falling of the stars
12. At that time will the Son of Man come and send out His angels

First, note that Christ said the persecution of His followers would be after the arrival of false christs, after the wars and rumors of wars, after the nations against nations and kingdoms against kingdoms, and after the famines and earthquakes and pestilences. Look at the first six seals of the Revelation: they're the very same things described in Christ's prophecies here. The quote from the start of this post says that the church is raptured before Christ (as the Lamb) even shows up to open the seals, yet when we compare the seals to the first group of events of Christ's prophecies and see that they're the same things, one should noticed that in the Discourse Christ had not once mentioned a rapture as taking place before the persecution of His followers.

Christ then says that after the persecution "the end will come". He speaks of the destruction of Judea, Jerusalem, and the temple. He says that at the same time of those events that there would be false prophets and false christs going around, deceiving "even the elect". Again, there is no mention of a rapture up to this point. The final event of Christ's Olivet Discourse is the Coming of the Son of Man, and the sending out of His angels to gather the elect. According to Matthew 13, the gathering of the elect takes place after the wicked are removed from the world. In essence, the last event of Christ's prophecies in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21) is what we would identify as the rapture. It is not one of the first events, but rather one of the last.

The only events Christ depicts as following the "rapture" is the throne judgment, found in Matthew 25, which He states will happen at the time of the Coming.



Christ consistently taught that the event which we call the rapture would take place at the end of the eschatological timeline, not at the beginning. Whenever He mentioned any sort of event that resembled what we call "the rapture", He directly stated or placed it at the end of events, and that the righteous would either be taken out of the world at the same time of or after the wicked, never before.

Paul's chronology
Paul only gives one solid statement on when the rapture would occur.

1 Corinthians 15:52 ... in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

At the last trumpet. This in itself can be interpreted multiple ways, but let's continue on to see if the Bible tells us when exactly the "last trumpet" would be.

John's chronology
John's Revelation, of course, gives us the seven trumpets. Let's jump ahead to the last one.

Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever."

Okay... So the last trumpet to be sounded off in the Revelation is the one to announce Christ's victory over the world and that His eternal reign has begun. Now, some would claim "this happens in the middle of events" simply by the fact that it's in chapter 11 of 22. Let's continue reading in chapter 11 then...

Revelation 11:18 "The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great—and for destroying those who destroy the earth."

Notice what I highlighted in blue. Immediately after the last trumpet has sounded, it is declared that Christ has won, and the elders claims that "the time has come for judging the dead". Well, in all of the Revelation, at what time does this event happen? Revelation 20:11-15. It is the last of the events to happen (prior to the new creation), and yet Revelation 11:18 says that the time for Revelation 20:11-15 "has come". Meaning, what we see in Revelation 20:11-15 takes place right after what we see in Revelation 11.

Summary
So let's take all of the above together:

According to Christ, His followers would be persecuted, they would remain in the world with the wicked, and when the "end of the age" took place and the Son of Man came, the "rapture" would take place, but only at the same time as or after the wicked had been removed from the world. Christ says that when the Son of Man comes with His angels He will sit on the throne and judge the wicked and the righteous, i.e. the throne judgment.

According to Paul, the "rapture" is the event that would take place when the last trumpet sounded.

According to the Revelation, the last trumpet is sounded at the moment Christ has claimed victory and is (chronologically) followed immediately by the throne judgment.

Taking these all in tandem shows the "rapture" as being the last of events, with only the throne judgment and the new creation as taking place after it. This is how I came to believe that the rapture is "post-tribulational".

I agree with everything you said. I'm also a post tribber. One question though, how do you reconcile Rev 11:18 with Rev 20:4-5? On one hand the dead are judged immediately after the second advent and on the other not until the 1000 years are up. Could it be that 11:18 simply refers to part of His plan and 20:4-5 describe the actual timeline of this event? Since the Bible doesn't contradict itself except when we read things into it, I think this would be a reasonable conclusion since this would reconcile the 2 verses.

[Dragonfighter1]

I agree with everything you said. I'm also a post tribber. One question though, how do you reconcile Rev 11:18 with Rev 20:4-5? On one hand the dead are judged immediately after the second advent and on the other not until the 1000 years are up. Could it be that 11:18 simply refers to part of His plan and 20:4-5 describe the actual timeline of this event? Since the Bible doesn't contradict itself except when we read things into it, I think this would be a reasonable conclusion since this would reconcile the 2 verses.

Excellent question.... I am waiting for his rather erudite answer as He certainly has a way of explaining things that helps the average reader.... I think I'll have to report him to Apothenein Kerdos... he might like to know that there is at least one other cogent writer he can discourse with.

Kudos to you both for these posts!

[yoSAMite]

I still have to wonder, has anyone even taken the time to check the last part of this verse in the Greek?

2 Thessalonians 2:7 until he be taken out of the way

taken----ginomai
verb - Root Word (Etymology)
a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb
Vines
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen
a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage
a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished
a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made

out---ek
Part of Speech
preposition - Root Word (Etymology)

a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative

Vines
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) out of, from, by, away from

way--mesos
Part of Speech
adjective - Root Word (Etymology)
from G3326

Vines
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) middle
2) the midst
3) in the midst of, amongst

I still want to know how anyone can claim that anyone is being taken out of the way? That's not what the Greek is saying.

Ask yourself these questions, then see if the text answers them?

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Know what that withholdeth? The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. As that the day of Christ is at hand.

Who might be revealed in his time? That man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

only he who now letteth.

Restrains what? The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. As that the day of Christ is at hand.

until he be taken out of the way.

Until who arises, comes on stage out of the midst? The son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This answers the entire passage.

You'll have to excuse me, but I'm having a bit of trouble with you're interpretation here. Would you please tell me what you think it says.

I think 2 Thes 2:3-7 says that the man of sin cannot be revealed until the apostasy and the indwelt Holy Spirit is removed.

[divaD]

You'll have to excuse me, but I'm having a bit of trouble with you're interpretation here. Would you please tell me what you think it says.

I think 2 Thes 2:3-7 says that the man of sin cannot be revealed until the apostasy and the indwelt Holy Spirit is removed.

"until he be taken out of the way."


It's pretty simple actually. I'm simply reading what the text is saying. I've already shown that the English rendered words 'taken' and 'way' do not support the Greek words used in this verse. No one is being taken out of the way, but someone will become to be out of the midst. This would have to be the son of perdition.

In verse 1 and 2 we learned that the day of Christ was not at hand. Why? Because some things have to happen first. There would come a falling away first, and that man of sin be would be revealed, the son of perdition, before Christ can return. Verse 6 tells us that the revealing of the son of perdition is restraining the coming of Christ.

Verse 7 tells us that the mystery of iniquity doth already work, and that it won't be fully revealed, because the revealing of the son of perdition is restraining the coming of the Lord(it is the coming of the Lord that reveals the son of perdition, but the son of perdition can't be revealed until he first arises out of the midst and fullfills verse 4) After this occurs, then can verse 8 start to be fullfilled..the coming of Christ to destroy that Wicked.


You say that the Holy Spirit is being taken out of the way. Where do you see that in this text? There's no mention of the Holy Spirit anywhere in the text. And besides, like I've already pointed out, 'taken' doesn't match up to the Greek. Do a word search on the English rendered word 'taken'. It is usually the Greek word 'lambano' that is used, which many times means the same thing as taken, but when 'taken' was used in this passage in 2 Thessalonians 2, the Greek word for it is 'ginomai' and not 'lambano'.

Do a search on Strong's G1096 and notice how that word is rendered throughout the NT. It appears to never mean taken, as in how we define taken in the English language.

[divaD]

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing [b]himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


I'd like to add this to previous thoughts. Take notice of what I highlighted in bold within this passage. This passage
pretty much contains two actors so to speak. And that would be Christ, and the son of perdition.

In verse 1 it's plainly obvious that the highlighted in bold belongs to Christ.

In verse 4 it's plainly obvious that the highlighted in bold belongs to the son of perdition.

Now we come to verse 6 and the pronouns highlighted in bold. Whom do these belong to? They have to belong to the son of perdition, because we learned in verse 3 who was supposed to be revealed..and that would be the son of perdition.

Now we come to verse 7 and the pronouns highlighted in bold. Whom do these belong to? They have to also belong to the son of perdition, because in verse 6 we learned that it was the revealing of the son of perdition that was restraining the coming of Christ. So how can the son of perdition be revealed? He must first arise out of the midst(remember iniquity was already at work and that the son of perdition hasn't become fully realized as of yet), then fullfill verse 4. Once he does that, then he will be revealed at Christ's coming, which would be verse 8.

And finally verse 8. It's once again plainly obvious that the pronouns in verse 8 belong to Christ.

[Dani H]

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[b]8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

In verse 1 it's plainly obvious that the highlighted in bold belongs to Christ.

In verse 4 it's plainly obvious that the highlighted in bold belongs to the son of perdition.

Now we come to verse 6 and the pronouns highlighted in bold. Whom do these belong to? They have to belong to the son of perdition, because we learned in verse 3 who was supposed to be revealed..and that would be the son of perdition.

Now we come to verse 7 and the pronouns highlighted in bold. Whom do these belong to? They have to also belong to the son of perdition, because in verse 6 we learned that it was the revealing of the son of perdition that was restraining the coming of Christ. So how can the son of perdition be revealed? He must first arise out of the midst(remember iniquity was already at work and that the son of perdition hasn't become fully realized as of yet), then fullfill verse 4. Once he does that, then he will be revealed at Christ's coming, which would be verse 8.

And finally verse 8. It's once again plainly obvious that the pronouns in verse 8 belong to Christ.

I'm following you, and I agree.

My questions, then:

1. Who exactly is the man of sin/son of perdition? A flesh-and-blood person? Or something else entirely?
2. How exactly is that ... son ... entity ... restraining Christ from returning?
3. How is the son of perdition then taken out of the way?
4. Who is the "wicked" who is going to be revealed, and then destroyed?

Remembering that Jesus does nothing apart from His Church ... and that these are spiritual realities ...

[Forgiven Alaskan]

Why I believe the rapture is pre-trib but not bent on it being so:

The NT writers constantly are telling us to comfort each other with the reminder, but reminder of what? The Tribulation is the worst time on earth, I don't see that as very comforting.

Rev. 3:10

God's children do not experience his wrath. (eg. lot, noah, Enoch)

We are told to pray that we might be counted worthy to escape those times.

This is my first serious post in this thread. I welcome any and all other interpretations of these things.

[Marc B]

Yes do pray that you are accounted worthy to escape the tribulation. Not everyone will be a martyr but many will be. That says nothing about a "rapture". A word that isn't even biblical but is insisted upon as being such. The Bible says time and time again about the martyrdom of saints in the Olivet prophecy [Matt 24, Luke 21, Mark 13 read the entire chapters to fully understand] spoken by Jesus Christ himself yet the rapture folks prefer to believe the soothing things like escaping the earth before the bad times come by misinterpreting a few verses like Rev 3:10, or the "meeting the Lord in the air" verses which happens AFTER the tribulation when He returns to earth, to prop up a theory that has no foundation in scripture. The Olivet prophecy warns of false christs in secret places and not to believe those telling you you will see Him before the second advent over here or over there. How much plainer can it be said?

I can't stress this enough, go to your room and close the door like Jesus instructs us to in Matthew 6:5-14 and pray for understanding and read the 3 full chapters I pointed to. There should be no doubt about pretrib posttrib whatever after that.

[quiet dove]

Yes do pray that you are accounted worthy to escape the tribulation. Not everyone will be a martyr but many will be. That says nothing about a "rapture". A word that isn't even biblical but is insisted upon as being such. The Bible says time and time again about the martyrdom of saints in the Olivet prophecy [Matt 24, Luke 21, Mark 13 read the entire chapters to fully understand] spoken by Jesus Christ himself yet the rapture folks prefer to believe the soothing things like escaping the earth before the bad times come by misinterpreting a few verses like Rev 3:10, or the "meeting the Lord in the air" verses which happens AFTER the tribulation when He returns to earth, to prop up a theory that has no foundation in scripture. The Olivet prophecy warns of false christs in secret places and not to believe those telling you you will see Him before the second advent over here or over there. How much plainer can it be said?

I can't stress this enough, go to your room and close the door like Jesus instructs us to in Matthew 6:5-14 and pray for understanding and read the 3 full chapters I pointed to. There should be no doubt about pretrib posttrib whatever after that.

And where do the rapture people say we will see Jesus?

[bennie]

Why I believe the rapture is pre-trib but not bent on it being so:

The NT writers constantly are telling us to comfort each other with the reminder, but reminder of what? The Tribulation is the worst time on earth, I don't see that as very comforting.

Rev. 3:10

God's children do not experience his wrath. (eg. lot, noah, Enoch)

We are told to pray that we might be counted worthy to escape those times.

This is my first serious post in this thread. I welcome any and all other interpretations of these things.

hi FA

Gods people have and will endure His wrath.

Ezekiel14:21 "For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: How much worse will it be when I send against Jerusalem my four dreadful judgments—sword and famine and wild beasts and plague—to kill its men and their animals!

Revelation6:8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

In ancient Israel God looked after the richous(spelling??) He will do so again my friend. This time of severe testing that is coming will purify us all before Jesus comes in the clouds to get is and take us to his fathers house.

john14:1-2(insertions mine) 1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there(not on earth in other words) to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go (there)and prepare a place for you, I will come back (Here)and take you(there) to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going."

Trust God my friend

bennie

[Marc B]

And where do the rapture people say we will see Jesus?

In the air before the tribulation.

[quiet dove]

In the air before the tribulation.

Exactly, it is not taught, even by pre trib, that Jesus will walk the earth, and be here or be there, as you implied they teach.

The Olivet prophecy warns of false christs in secret places and not to believe those telling you you will see Him before the second advent over here or over there. How much plainer can it be said?