Why I disagree with the pre-tribulation rapture

[Marc B]

For those of us who believe in the pre-trib rapture, our argument would be that this verse says nothing of Jesus returning to earth. It says we will meet Jesus in the clouds and be with Him forever. No more no less.

True enough, that's why you have to look at other Bible passages to clarify where we are to dwell with Him after the meeting in the air. Reading single verses and basing an entire doctrine on it is very dangerous because it allows human interpretation to creep in instead of letting scripture interpret itself through other verses and chapters that elaborate and back up the "meeting in the air" in this case. Since we know the saints will rule on earth with Him 1000 years according to Revelation it's a simple matter of 2+2=4. Thessalonians says we will meet Him in the air at the second advent and Revelation says we will rule with Him on earth 1000 years after. 2+2=4.

[quiet dove]

Are they being 'taken' and if so, to where? Is that what Paul is describing? He say's we'll 'meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Why does being with the Lord forever have to mean 'going to heaven.' Paul nowhere mentions heaven

I didn't mention anything about where wer are taken, it simply says to forever be with the Lord

This is a red herring, to some extent. We're specifically dealing with Paul's words in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 because it's the primary passage used to defend the pre-trib view.

Saying it is a red herring does not answer my question, the two are either the same event or they are not.

However, let's look at a portion of 1 Corinthians 15:

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. (NIV)

Paul says that we'll be changed in the twinkling of an eye, not removed from earth in the twinkling of an eye. "We," in verse 51 & 52,refers to the living and the dead. Paul is emphasizing the unity of all believers in Christ, both dead and living. Both groups will receive their bodily glorification at the same time. Paul is using this chapter to say, 'Don't worry, both you and your dead loved ones will receive your reward together, so don't think you'll never see them again." In the context of the whole Chapter, Paul is correcting the notion that there would be no final resurrection at the end of the age, a doctrine that was upsetting the Corinthian Church, whose members were worried that they'd never again see their loved ones who died in Christ.

So the dead are raised, we are changed and do what? This event happens in the twinkling of an eye and at the sound of a trumpet. Did the angels gather all people, Jesus separate the sheep from the goats, then this happens. And are Corinthians and Thess not the same since Corinthians does not mention meeting Him in the clouds?

And then how does all that harmonize with Rev 20:11. Corinthians and Thessalonians speaks of only those in Christ. Not to mention Rev 19 having the saints coming with Christ at His Second Advent.

[yoSAMite]

True enough, that's why you have to look at other Bible passages to clarify where we are to dwell with Him after the meeting in the air. Reading single verses and basing an entire doctrine on it is very dangerous because it allows human interpretation to creep in instead of letting scripture interpret itself through other verses and chapters that elaborate and back up the "meeting in the air" in this case. Since we know the saints will rule on earth with Him 1000 years according to Revelation it's a simple matter of 2+2=4. Thessalonians says we will meet Him in the air at the second advent and Revelation says we will rule with Him on earth 1000 years after. 2+2=4.

I think Scripture says we'll come back with Him at the second advent riding on white horses, Rev 19:14.

Now that I think of it, I see the post trib rapture this way. You suffer the great tribulation period (God's wrath?), at the end of that time you get transformed into the Spiritual body, dressed in a white robe on the way up to meet Jesus, jump on a white horse, stop at McDonalds for the wedding supper on the way down and watch Jesus do his thing and then reign with Him for 1000 years if you believe in a post second coming millenium.

Marc, please excuse what may seem like a wise guy answer, but it really does sum up what I understand of the post trib view.

[quiet dove]

True enough, that's why you have to look at other Bible passages to clarify where we are to dwell with Him after the meeting in the air. Reading single verses and basing an entire doctrine on it is very dangerous because it allows human interpretation to creep in instead of letting scripture interpret itself through other verses and chapters that elaborate and back up the "meeting in the air" in this case. Since we know the saints will rule on earth with Him 1000 years according to Revelation it's a simple matter of 2+2=4. Thessalonians says we will meet Him in the air at the second advent and Revelation says we will rule with Him on earth 1000 years after. 2+2=4.

Forgive me for jumping in, but it is far from one verse. It is the harmony of many and the harmony of what those many teach. One verse stuff is what others say, but one verse is far from determining pre trib for pre tribbers.

[scourge39]

[QUOTE=quiet dove;1831320]I didn't mention anything about where we are taken, it simply says to forever be with the Lord [quote]

Exactly! It doesn't mention being taken from the earth, but the Greek word apantesis, translated 'meet' in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 specifically refers to an official welcome of a dignitary by his subjects after having returned. The word is found in Matthew 25:1, 25:6; as well as Acts 28:15. Both of it's uses in Matthew 25 are clearly referring to Christ's physical, permanent Second Coming at the end of the age, not to a secret, supersonic rapture:

Matthew 25:1-13:

1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

7"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

9" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'

12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'

13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

There's nothing in this parable suggesting anything other than a single, visible and final return of Christ.

Saying it is a red herring does not answer my question, the two are either the same event or they are not.

Oh, they're definitely describing the same event.

So the dead are raised, we are changed and do what? This event happens in the twinkling of an eye and at the sound of a trumpet. Did the angels gather all people, Jesus separate the sheep from the goats, then this happens. And are Corinthians and Thess not the same since Corinthians does not mention meeting Him in the clouds?

All of those events will happen at the same time.

And then how does all that harmonize with Rev 20:11. Corinthians and Thessalonians speaks of only those in Christ. Not to mention Rev 19 having the saints coming with Christ at His Second Advent.

In Corinthians and Thessalonians speaks only of those in Christ because that's who he's concerned with. His readers aren't worried about the destiny of the unrighteous.

Revelation 19:11-21 simply describes the Second Coming and final judgment using different imagery than that of Revelation 20:11-15. It compares Christ's to that of a conquering Warrior King, which highlights the royal coronation language used by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 quite nicely. Revelation is written in the form of a Greek play with multiple acts and repeated themes. It uses different imagery to describe the same event, not necessarily two different events.

Revelation 20:11-15 describe the same resurrection as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, only this description includes the resurrection and judgment of the wicked because Revelation discusses the universal/global effects of God's control over history and its final culmination.

Revelation's literary genre is crucial to understanding its interpretation. It's apocalyptic literature, whose primary feature involves using symbolic language as a means to describe literal events and their significance. Those wanting to interpret the imagery used by John in Revelation are completely ignoring its literary genre. It's not historical narrative like the Gospels or Acts. It's difficult to say exactly how much of Revelation will indeed see future fulfillment, other than the final resurrection and Second Coming. Apocalyptic prophecies can have multiple fulfillments, and there's no way of knowing which aspects of it will recur and how. While I believe in a final Antichrist, I don't believe that there will be an image set up to worship during his reign. All of the symbols employed in Revelation are taken right out of the OT. Revelation 13 takes the imagery of Nebuchadnezzar's statue from Daniel 3 simply to describe any ruler or governmental system that demands allegiance from the Church and persecutes it for not complying. The mark refers to the Roman seal placed on official royal decrees. Nero was persecuting the Church when John wrote Revelation and the 'mark' certainly conjures up images of his oppression of the Church in the minds of John's readers. I'm not sold on a mandatory 'computer chip' one day being the 'mark' either. I studied under Greg Beale, the NT scholar who has written the most comprehensive Revelation commentary in print, and even he isn't overly dogmatic, since interpretation of Revelation seems to be vastly different from one generation to the next . Most Christians are completely oblivious to the myriad of interpretrations of Revelation that have been put forth throughout Church history. Looking at all of it is humbling. It's pretty naive for anyone to say 'I know exactly what this symbol represents' or how many of them will have 'future' fulfillment. Dogmatically saying that Chapters 4 through 19 is 'all futurist' completely ignores that John's immediate audience are the seven Churches in Asia Minor who were being persecuted and needed encouragement to persevere. Why write to encourage suffering Christians who aren't going to see any of what's being described in their lifetime? As a former Dispensationalist, I'm familiar with the Revelation commentaries by John MacArthur, Robert L. Thomas, and John F. Walvoord. All of them, at least from my reading, seem to operate off of the unwritten assumption that even John's readers had no idea what he wrote to them, which is really silly. That's just an attempt to force the total fulfillment of Revelation off into the 'distant' rather than the 'near' future. Some of it had to be fulfilled during the lives of those to whom John wrote, or else the entire book would've had no relevance for them. Demanding distant futurism of all of its fulfillment is as nonsensical as telling polio sufferers in the 1800's not to lose heart because Jonas Salk would invent a vaccine for their condition in 1955, long after their deaths. I can just hear John now: Well, you're not gonna see one bit of my visions fulfilled during your lifetime, or even make heads or tails out of them, but here they are for your encouragement.

[divaD]

First tell us how the angels sent to the four corners of the earth to gather the elect is the same as the dead and living in Christ being taken, together, to meet Him in the clouds, at the sound of a trumpet. Or how the gathering from the four corners of the earth is the same as being changed in the twinkling of an eye, also, at the sound of a trumpet and including the dead and living in Christ?

This is a very good and fair question. I don't believe the text says anything about the 4 corners of the earth. Are you sure it doesn't state the 4 winds instead? Unless I'm reading you wrong, you are referring to Matt 24:31 right?


Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Take notice of the four winds here. Now read Ezekiel 37:9, and notice what happens with the four winds here. Read all of Ezekiel 37, and you will see that this is the same scene as Matthew 24:31, and it's the same scene as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17




Ezekiel 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

[quiet dove]

This is a very good and fair question. I don't believe the text says anything about the 4 corners of the earth. Are you sure it doesn't state the 4 winds instead? Unless I'm reading you wrong, you are referring to Matt 24:31 right?


Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Take notice of the four winds here. Now read Ezekiel 37:9, and notice what happens with the four winds here. Read all of Ezekiel 37, and you will see that this is the same scene as Matthew 24:31, and it's the same scene as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17




Ezekiel 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

Yea, four winds, from all over the earth, but the same thing. I did word it wrong. But that still does not answer the question I originally ask.

[Diggindeeper]

Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.



Revelation 14:14-19
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.


Luke 17:26-30
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Jesus said, "As in the days of Noah and Lot..."
as soon as the remnant that belonged to God was taken, then immediately--the rest (those left behind!) were all destroyed!

I see a strong similarity between the Parable of the wheat and the tares, and what John saw in Rev. chapter 14.

Notice that Jesus knew not, till the angel came out of the temple and ANNOUNCED to him that the harvest of the earth is ripe. (I recall him saying that even the angels of heaven "know not the day nor the hour." But when they do learn that time is up...they dash out and tell him.)

Notice also who gathers the good harvest! WOW!

Why is so difficult to see that the "good" and the "bad" are gathered at the same time...in the only second coming of Christ Jesus? They are gathered from the four winds of the earth, the four corners of the earth...at the same event--the harvest.

[divaD]

Yea, four winds, from all over the earth, but the same thing. I did word it wrong. But that still does not answer the question I originally ask.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Let's see if Matthew 24 is describing the same exact events.



Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This would be the resurrection before the rapture.




Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

This would be the rapture of those remaining after the trib, and after the resurrection.



Notice in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord


Now notice in Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



Notice in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:



Now notice in Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other



This is undeniable. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 takes place exactly how Matthew 24 does, and in the same exact order. And since we know from Matthew 24 that this occurs after the trib, then this means that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 occurs after the trib also.

[quiet dove]

This is undeniable. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 takes place exactly how Matthew 24 does, and in the same exact order. And since we know from Matthew 24 that this occurs after the trib, then this means that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 occurs after the trib also.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

So do the angels gather all the elect, that would be after the wicked (one in the field) are taken away, and the dead in Christ rise and the angels gather the elect and all are taken in the clouds together, and this is all at Jesus Second Advent, the same Second Advend that the saints are seen in Rev as coming with Christ?

And just because Matt happens after the trib does not mean Thess does.

Are you post trib or amil, just asking because it saves on communication confusion.

[wesand24]

Matthew 24:36-44 :
These verses have nothing to do with the rapture as someone stated earlier, but if you look at the context this passage is referring to being taken in judgement. It even gives a comparison of the people in the flood, "..and did not know until the flood came and took them all away." The Son of Man's coming will be similar to those days: "Two women will be grinding at the mill, one will be taken and the other left. People will be marrying and given in marriage, just thinking everything is OK. But for you things are different! YOU "watch therefore."

Now, back to the topic. I am not sttled on how i stand as to when the rapture will occurr (pre, post). I definitely believe God has the ability to keep one from His wrath even though one might be going through it. Example: Noah and his family went through the wrath of God while safe on an ark. Meshach, Shadrach, and Abed-nego went through the firy furnace, but remained as if nothing happend. Daniel in the Lions den. I am sure there are more in Scripture, but I don't know them.

[divaD]

Matthew 24:36-44 :
These verses have nothing to do with the rapture as someone stated earlier, but if you look at the context this passage is
referring to being taken in judgement.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


Just out of pure curiosity, whom do you think these 2 verses are referring to? Surely this couldn't be talking of dead people waiting for a resurrection. And surely the ungodly wouldn't be looking for the the return of the Lord. These people have to be alive when the Lord returns, and looking for His return. These have to be believers that Jesus cautions to stay fully aware and not to get side tracked, etc. This is what these 2 verses are implying. Take a closer look at Matthew 24 as a whole. Perhaps you're not looking at it close enough?

[wesand24]

Have you looked at the comparison that Jesus gives just before in the same passage, the ungodly were taken in the flood not the faithful. Yes, "watch therefore" , but you will not be overtaken like them. God's wrath gets them. This is clearly not a reference to the catching away of believers in I Thessalonians. Jesus makes that clear by giving the comparison of the unrepentant that were "taken" in Noah's day.

[wesand24]

There are about eight different meaning for watch in the Greek. The way we watch now is entirely different then the way saints will be watching at the end of the tribulation when this passage is speaking about. These last few passages in the Olivet Discourse are speaking of attitudes that people will have about Christ Coming. People will be unconcerned, practicing mundane things not taking heed to all the warnings that came about the past few years (all the signs that Christ spoke of in the same chapter.
Look at Matthew 24:48: That evil servant says in his heart, "My Master is delaying his coming" - "the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
As for those in Christ "But you, brethren, are not in darkness so that this Day should overtake you as a thief... Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. ..For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." I Thessalonians 5:4,6,9

[divaD]

Are you post trib or amil, just asking because it saves on communication confusion.

Well to be quite honest, I'm not that familiar with what an amil believes, so if I'm one of them I probably wouldn't realize it. But I can say for certain that I'm post-trib, even tho the majority of my life I had always been pre-trib. What changed my mind? Reading Scripture, then realizing that a pre-trib rapture was not taught in the Bible afterall. I came to this conclusion on my own. No one influenced me to change my mind. The Scriptures themselves influenced my decision to change my view.