Why I disagree with the pre-tribulation rapture

[Diggindeeper]

Mine too, divaD. Mine too! I had been taught pretrib since childhood, but it was the scriptures and only the scriptures that convinced me.

[quiet dove]

Well to be quite honest, I'm not that familiar with what an amil believes, so if I'm one of them I probably wouldn't realize it. But I can say for certain that I'm post-trib, even tho the majority of my life I had always been pre-trib. What changed my mind? Reading Scripture, then realizing that a pre-trib rapture was not taught in the Bible afterall. I came to this conclusion on my own. No one influenced me to change my mind. The Scriptures themselves influenced my decision to change my view.

I appreciate your answer, and as much of a surprise as it may be, in reading scripture I find pre trib much supported, and have not been pursuade by the arguments to change my mind.

[John146]

So the dead are raised, we are changed and do what? This event happens in the twinkling of an eye and at the sound of a trumpet. Did the angels gather all people, Jesus separate the sheep from the goats, then this happens. And are Corinthians and Thess not the same since Corinthians does not mention meeting Him in the clouds?

And then how does all that harmonize with Rev 20:11. Corinthians and Thessalonians speaks of only those in Christ.

But 1 Thessalonians does not only speak of those in Christ.

Paul is not finished with his teaching about the coming of the Lord in 1 Thess 4:18. He continues:

1 Thess 5
1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

This goes along with what he says in 2 Thessalonians.

2 Thess 1
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Paul also taught that the coming of the Lord and our being gathered to Him happens at the same time here:

2 Thess 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Paul taught in these passages that the coming of Christ, the gathering of believers in Christ and the destruction of those who are not in Christ all occur on the same day.

Not to mention Rev 19 having the saints coming with Christ at His Second Advent.

Is that not the same as what is taught here:

1 Thess 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

[John146]

Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.



Revelation 14:14-19
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.


Luke 17:26-30
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Jesus said, "As in the days of Noah and Lot..."
as soon as the remnant that belonged to God was taken, then immediately--the rest (those left behind!) were all destroyed!

I see a strong similarity between the Parable of the wheat and the tares, and what John saw in Rev. chapter 14.

Notice that Jesus knew not, till the angel came out of the temple and ANNOUNCED to him that the harvest of the earth is ripe. (I recall him saying that even the angels of heaven "know not the day nor the hour." But when they do learn that time is up...they dash out and tell him.)

Notice also who gathers the good harvest! WOW!

Why is so difficult to see that the "good" and the "bad" are gathered at the same time...in the only second coming of Christ Jesus? They are gathered from the four winds of the earth, the four corners of the earth...at the same event--the harvest.

Good post. All the dead are resurrected and all people, saved and lost, are gathered at the same time at the end of the age, which is when Christ will return.

[John146]

Well to be quite honest, I'm not that familiar with what an amil believes, so if I'm one of them I probably wouldn't realize it.

Amils believe that Christ will destroy all unbelievers when He returns and that all believers will be changed and put on immortality at that time. This does not leave any mortals to populate an earthly millennial kingdom following Christ's return. You can be both amil and post-trib.

[Richard H]

Originally Posted by Diggindeeper
Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way...

Good post. All the dead are resurrected and all people, saved and lost, are gathered at the same time at the end of the age, which is when Christ will return.

Hi John146,
Certainly Jesus comes back only once, but when?

End of the age meaning the end of the millennium?
Or this age when Satan is still bothering us?

I agree that God will raise up the rest of the dead for judgment after the 1000 yrs (Rev 20:5,12,13), but what about the tribulation martyrs? (Rev 20:6)

I thought Jesus calls us up to meet Him (before the bowls) and then He lands at the end of the bowls to win the battle of Armageddon.
Then He actually reigns on this earth as King for 1000years. (Rev 20:6)


So... are you A-Mil, or did I miss somethin'?

Richard

Added: Yeah! I missed your last post.

[John146]

Hi John146,
Certainly Jesus comes back only once, but when?

End of the age meaning the end of the millennium?
Or this age when Satan is still bothering us?

Both. What did Jesus teach in the parable of the wheat and tares or parable of the fishing net? That there would be two separate gatherings of believers, one of which included only believers and the other of which included unbelievers? No, He did not teach that at all. He taught that all people, saved and lost, will be gathered at the same time for judgment (Matt 13:24-50, Matt 25:31-46, John 5:28-29).

I agree that God will raise up the rest of the dead for judgment after the 1000 yrs (Rev 20:5,12,13), but what about the tribulation martyrs? (Rev 20:6)

I thought Jesus calls us up to meet Him (before the bowls) and then He lands at the end of the bowls to win the battle of Armageddon.
Then He actually reigns on this earth as King for 1000years. (Rev 20:6)


So... are you A-Mil, or did I miss somethin'?

I am an amillennialist, so I obviously don't agree with the scenario you've laid out there.

[divaD]

Amils believe that Christ will destroy all unbelievers when He returns and that all believers will be changed and put on immortality at that time. This does not leave any mortals to populate an earthly millennial kingdom following Christ's return. You can be both amil and post-trib.

In order for me to even determine if I might have a little amil in me, what does an amil do with the thousand years that satan is bound? What transpires during that thousand years other than satan being bound?

[Richard H]

Both. What did Jesus teach in the parable of the wheat and tares or parable of the fishing net? That there would be two separate gatherings of believers, one of which included only believers and the other of which included unbelievers? No, He did not teach that at all. He taught that all people, saved and lost, will be gathered at the same time for judgment (Matt 13:24-50, Matt 25:31-46, John 5:28-29).

I am an amillennialist, so I obviously don't agree with the scenario you've laid out there.

Hi 'John',
Actually, accept for (1Thes 4:16) which may not be specifying only some - and the verses describing the second resurrection - as you're familiar with...
Revelation 20 seems to indicate that only the martrys (and the apostles - the thrones) are raised during the first resurrection.
The rest of the dead - including all the pre-trib Christians - are raised after the thousand years.
It's not a widely held belief, though.

Tell me, please...
What do you think of Revelation 20?
Is it inaccurate?

Richard

[divaD]

Hi 'John',
Actually, accept for (1Thes 4:16) which may not be specifying only some - and the verses describing the second resurrection - as you're familiar with...
Revelation 20 seems to indicate that only the martrys (and the apostles - the thrones) are raised during the first resurrection.
The rest of the dead - including all the pre-trib Christians - are raised after the thousand years.
It's not a widely held belief, though.

Tell me, please...
What do you think of Revelation 20?
Is it inaccurate?




Richard

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

If the first resurrection refers to those that are blessed and holy, and if those dead believers before the trib aren't raised until after the thousand years expires, the final resurrection, does this then mean that these particular believers are not blessed and holy, since this description is only given to those of the first resurrection?

[Richard H]

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

If the first resurrection refers to those that are blessed and holy, and if those dead believers before the trib aren't raised until after the thousand years expires, the final resurrection, does this then mean that these particular believers are not blessed and holy, since this description is only given to those of the first resurrection?

Hi DivaD, J
I would NOT assume the “rest of the Christians” to be less loved. Certainly ALL are holy and righteous through one blood, so there is no difference in my book.

I think it implies a special blessing.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'"
"Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."
To me it speaks of God’s 7th Millennium – a rest from the wiles of Satan – a Sabbath.
And the blessing of being able see and perhaps even to participate in Christ’s reign.

The clincher for me is: it is the Second Resurrection, when the Book of Life is opened.

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

The saints martyred by the antichrist are sure to have their names in the book, since they were obedient even unto death.
It is a special time.
A showdown – a throw-down, between God and Satan – sealing Satan’s guilt and deserved punishment.

Note: I am not A-Mil, since I think Jesus will actually reign on this earth for 1000 years, as promised.
If it is coming soon, I really don’t want to lose my head, but 3-4 minutes is much shorter than eternity.
I really don’t want to be some kind of (lower) “king”, but I would like to see His kingdom.

Richard

[divaD]

The clincher for me is: it is the Second Resurrection, when the Book of Life is opened.

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and
another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were
written in the books, according to their deeds.

Hi Richard. I guess this all depends on perspective. Perhaps the book of life is a record book of sorts that only contain names but nothing else, and the reason it is here is because it shows that those present are not written within it.

Notice what it states first, even before it mentions the book of life.


And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened

Notice, it says books, as in more than one type, then it mentions the book of life as in a particular type, then it goes on to mention that these were judged from the things written in the books. What books? The first set of books that were opened, whatever books these may be. So do you at least see how this can be about perspective? Not that my perspective is correct and yours isn't.

Note: I am not A-Mil, since I think Jesus will actually reign on this earth for 1000 years, as promised.
If it is coming soon, I really don’t want to lose my head, but 3-4 minutes is much shorter than eternity.
I really don’t want to be some kind of (lower) “king”, but I would like to see His kingdom.

I hear you here. We also have to keep in mind that not every believer will die during this time. Not everyone will beheaded. I have always wondered how some could survive but others couldn't, especially when we're told that no one will be able to buy or sell, except those that have the mark of the beast?

[Richard H]

Hi Richard. I guess this all depends on perspective. Perhaps the book of life is a record book of sorts that only contain names but nothing else, and the reason it is here is because it shows that those present are not written within it.

Notice what it states first, even before it mentions the book of life.


And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened

Notice, it says books, as in more than one type, then it mentions the book of life as in a particular type, then it goes on to mention that these were judged from the things written in the books. What books? The first set of books that were opened, whatever books these may be. So do you at least see how this can be about perspective? Not that my perspective is correct and yours isn't.

Hi Diva,
I noticed the other books. The way I see it – is all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
Then the book of life is opened and those not “covered” by the blood, will discover exactly where they messed up – by not trusting in Jesus.

We will say: as the saying goes: “There, but for the grace of God, go I.”

I’m not cast in this view and I really wouldn’t have brought it up, because it does not matter to us.
We will all (now of this time) have a common resurrection and we know that we are righteous because of the Lamb.

I was wondering about this A-Mill perspective, though. It just seems so clear that there will be a 1000 years.

I hear you here. We also have to keep in mind that not every believer will die during this time. Not everyone will beheaded. I have always wondered how some could survive but others couldn't, especially when we're told that no one will be able to buy or sell, except those that have the mark of the beast?

Yes. Some will survive and they shall not even taste the first death - but be changed into a resurrected state.

God will provide for our needs and our destinations.
He has hidden manna, and the water of life.
He has created all things by His Word and His breath gives eternal life.
He has created every molecule in all the galaxies in this infinite universe.

He will provide, but we had better give our faith some exercise, because that is how we will survive.

IF we are getting close enough to witness Daniel’s 70th week, I want to be inwardly prepared as best I can - either way.
When I first came to grips with the possibility, it was depressing to say the least, but I’m determined to trust wherever He leads or places me.
The Lord will do with me as He sees fit.
For now, I am very happy. And I love God so much!

Richard

[crush]

Hi 'John',
Revelation 20 seems to indicate that only the martrys (and the apostles - the thrones) are raised during the first resurrection.
The rest of the dead - including all the pre-trib Christians - are raised after the thousand years.
It's not a widely held belief, though.

Hi Richard,

I've got a hunch that you are right about the apostles being resurrected, and they are the ones on the thrones to whom judgment is given in Rev 20:4. But I've really never found any strong evidence for this. I know Jesus made a private promise to the disciples that they would sit as judges over the 12 tribes.... is this why you believe they are involved in the first resurrection? Or do you have more information about this belief?

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

thx....

crush

[Richard H]

Hi Richard,

I've got a hunch that you are right about the apostles being resurrected, and they are the ones on the thrones to whom judgment is given in Rev 20:4. But I've really never found any strong evidence for this. I know Jesus made a private promise to the disciples that they would sit as judges over the 12 tribes.... is this why you believe they are involved in the first resurrection? Or do you have more information about this belief?

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

thx....

crush

Yup! That's the verse, Crush.
I got lazy or in a hurry or something, so I didn't put in the verse, but that's it.
Thanks for finding it.
Richard