Why I disagree with the pre-tribulation rapture

[Richard H]

Sorry. I thought it was a group discussion.

[crush]

Thank you Crush. I had noticed that.

My wacky theory about non-tribulation saints being resurrected after the 1000 years - because they were not specified in the first and the Book of Life being opened at the Judgment - would have only added to the confusion.

YW Richard. IMO this "wacky" theory (that I also share) doesn't add any confusion, it subtracts from the confusion greatly

and their are many reasons why the tribulation martyrs don't have to stand in judgement at the GWT judgment day...here's one LOL

Every one who's name isn't in the book of life worships the Beast when he appears - those who's names ARE written in the book of Life do not worship the beast, and are killed (or remain alive 'til the end of the trib)

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

it is a foregone conclusion that all who don't worship the Beast are written in the book of life - so opening the book to determine if the martyrs names are in the book isn't necessary

IOW worshiping/not-worshiping the beast is the same as opening the book of life, the same information is gained

[markedward]

In your OP, you started with a point about Revelation 4:1. Your statements made it clear that you feel most or all pre-tribbers view that as a rapture.

It was actually a specific statement made by a specific person in another thread. I read it in that thread and thought to myself "Even when I did believe in the pre-trib, I never read 4:1 as inferring or implying a rapture was taking place." This in turn made me decide, "Well, I think I would like to start a thread about why I don't believe in the pre-trib view anymore, and why I do believe in the post-trib view." So I created this thread to do just that, but I also still felt that I wanted to respond to that the original statement that had sparked my idea without derailing the thread I found it in. I was addressing a very specific idea to begin with (Revelation 4:1 is the rapture of the church ) and why I, regardless of being pre- or post-trib, think it's an example of bad hermeneutics. Then I shifted into my generic presentation of why I believe the post-trib and not the pre-trib.

I am one pre-tribber who doesn't.

Okay. But I don't think I was "making it clear" that I felt "most or all" people interpreted the verse that way. But, considering I've read numerous posts in the past few years on the forum and multiple books and online articles and such that make the same claim as that original quote from my OP, it is something that many people believe. It may not be "most" or "all," but it's still a large group. (As I previously stated, this was a specific user who stated this, not me attributing a statement to the pre-trib crowd as a whole. When I copied the statement into my OP, I removed the user's name so that it would not appear as if I was picking on them.)

That's another thing we have to be careful of...foisting our overall perceptions of those "talking points" on everyone in that other camp. It doesn't always work.

I don't think I did. I apologize if that's how it came out, but it certainly was not my intent.

[IBWatching]

Sorry. I thought it was a group discussion.

I am not offended. No apology necessary.

[IBWatching]

...I don't think I did. I apologize if that's how it came out, but it certainly was not my intent.

I realize it wasn't intentional and I wasn't offended. I need to tell everyone that one of my best friends on the entire internet is a post-tribber. We get along fine because of some of what I mentioned in my earlier post. We seem to be able to talk to each other better via questions. He is also a member of this board, although he hasn't posted here much.

If we (notice I included myself) can learn through asking questions, the threads will last longer, we'll learn to get along and our Witness as brothers and sisters will be what it should be.

Carry on.

[IBWatching]

...But, considering I've read numerous posts in the past few years on the forum and multiple books and online articles and such that make the same claim as that original quote from my OP, it is something that many people believe...

Now this part is my fault. I am by no means a "mainstream" pre-tribber. And I agree, there are many people from "my" camp who believe this. Here are some other "pre-trib" things I don't go along with:

Matthew 24 is not in chronological order
Luke 21:28 is the rapture (it's one of John Hagee's favorites)
Rev 4:1 is the rapture
Rev 3:10 conclusively proves pre-trib (it confirms Luke 21:35)
The Church is a dispensation
The 10 Virgins (Matthew 25) are the Church

There are many other points I have not listed here. All were discarded from my position when I did a "testing" of it some years back.

[crush]

Rev 3:10 conclusively proves pre-trib (it confirms Luke 21:35)

I apologize in advance, seeing as how you don't like being spoken to by people you haven't addressed, but you have made a very bold statement here to whomever may be reading this board, and I'd like to have an opinion on this statement.

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I admit that I don't fully understand the mystery of the 7 churches in Rev, but the only "conclusive" proof I can see in 3:10 is that the church of Philadelphia won't be tempted during the Great Trib. I would assume this would mean that they aren't tempted to worship the beast, or receive the "mark of the beast"

[edit]

I believe the scripture that I just posted is relevant. Everyone that's not written in the book of life will worship the Beast - the "chuch of Philadelphia" won't be tempted to worship the beast....so they'll prolly be killed

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

during the "Lord's prayer" when we say "lead us not into temptation" does that automatically mean "take us to heaven so we won't be tempted"? LOL

Also, if there are 7 churches, and only the Philadelphia church gets "raptured" - that would still leave six churches

[edit]NM, sorry again, LOL, I see now that you are listing things that you DON'T agree with [/edit]

[TexasBeliever]

I'm post trib. and trying/wanting to be converted to "pre" because of all the trouble it causes me among my Baptist friends. I have begged to be converted but they never seem to be able to sit down and ACTUALLY explain how they come up with it. If you challenge anything they say (in my experience anyway) they get defensive and we end up running all over the place with pointless philosophical arguements).

My biggest issue is this: If the dead in Christ are raised first.(Please challenge that if I am wrong), then how do you get around Rev 20:5. There the scripture says that the Devil starts his 1000 yr imprisonment and the saint are resurected in the FIRST resurrection. (presumable immediately after that we who are live are raptured too-since we cant go before them). There cant have been a rapture before then or there would have been a resurrection before then too! and if that was the case then this Rev 20:5 shouldnt be calling it the FIRST resurrection.

I did have one witty man say that it wasnt the first resurrection because Christs was the first and several prophets were resurrected with him on that special easter day! But I pointed out that a small local resurrection and a global "all saints included" resurrection surely shouldnt be referred to as the first or the "pre-first" resurrection LOL!

Please if you are pre trib (and I am not trying to start a fight at all, please show me how to believe as you do.
I am serious. But...Scripture required.

Hey there: another thing you might point out to your witty friend is that the First Resurrection is described as the "resurrection unto LIFE", meaning eternal life.
Only Jesus was raised to eternal life. Everyone else who was raised from the dead was NOT raised to eternal life. They simply came back to life and then died a natural death and are currently waiting for the resurrection unto life like all believers.

[DigReal]

Folks, I think there is one thing we should always keep in mind: the pre, mid, post discussion has been going on a long time, and may continue until we've all been brought up to our Lord. All that this discussion can prove is that the answer isn't clear, otherwise we wouldn't keep having this discussion. Right? But I'm not saying we shouldn't keep having this discussion, quite the contrary.

I currently call myself pre-trib, but I'm not about to try and convince anyone that that's the view to believe. I'll always openly state my view, and may even state why. But to try and convince someone?, I pray I don't. For one thing, as I continue to study, I discover new reasons to change my view. First I was post, then mid, now pre. Next week I may be post-trib again. What this has taught me is that I must continue to study, continue to be watchful, continue to pray, and continue to (as the scouts always say) be prepared!

So, even though currently pre-trib, if I'm awakened one night by a terrible quake here in SoCal, and then hear of nuclear bombs going off in the middle east, I'm not going to ask "what happened to my rapture?". I'll know in an instant! Instead, I expect to shout "Lord, what is my role? What is your Will for me?" Granted, it's obvious most won't like living in that hour, myself included, but we should know by now to understand those times, so we're prepared not to be deceived.

The point is, regardless of a pre, mid, or post view, we should all be prepared for any of those. Post-tribbers need to think of rapture as imminent, and not allow themselves to be part of this world, thinking they have lots of time to get their act together (not that I think anyone on this forum would think that way). Likewise, pre-tribbers shouldn't tell themselves they don't need to study the prophecy of tribulation, thinking it won't matter to them since they won't be here (after all, John did say in RE1:3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.."

Perhaps the mystery of the rapture shouldn't be so mysterious, after all?

[jen74]

Folks, I think there is one thing we should always keep in mind: the pre, mid, post discussion has been going on a long time, and may continue until we've all been brought up to our Lord. All that this discussion can prove is that the answer isn't clear, otherwise we wouldn't keep having this discussion. Right? But I'm not saying we shouldn't keep having this discussion, quite the contrary.

I currently call myself pre-trib, but I'm not about to try and convince anyone that that's the view to believe. I'll always openly state my view, and may even state why. But to try and convince someone?, I pray I don't. For one thing, as I continue to study, I discover new reasons to change my view. First I was post, then mid, now pre. Next week I may be post-trib again. What this has taught me is that I must continue to study, continue to be watchful, continue to pray, and continue to (as the scouts always say) be prepared!

So, even though currently pre-trib, if I'm awakened one night by a terrible quake here in SoCal, and then hear of nuclear bombs going off in the middle east, I'm not going to ask "what happened to my rapture?". I'll know in an instant! Instead, I expect to shout "Lord, what is my role? What is your Will for me?" Granted, it's obvious most won't like living in that hour, myself included, but we should know by now to understand those times, so we're prepared not to be deceived.

The point is, regardless of a pre, mid, or post view, we should all be prepared for any of those. Post-tribbers need to think of rapture as imminent, and not allow themselves to be part of this world, thinking they have lots of time to get their act together (not that I think anyone on this forum would think that way). Likewise, pre-tribbers shouldn't tell themselves they don't need to study the prophecy of tribulation, thinking it won't matter to them since they won't be here (after all, John did say in RE1:3 "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.."

Perhaps the mystery of the rapture shouldn't be so mysterious, after all?

Very nicely put! I like the way you think.

[Dragonfighter1]

IBW Regarding your post abbreviated below...

The two resurrections that are in Rev 20 are the same two taught by Jesus to Israel....Hope it helps.

Thank you for your response. I read it 3 times. I am still not getting where my mental block is. This is very frustrating as I am sincere in getting a handle on where the differences between the two camps lie. Once I understand the key point of confusion then I can decide. As it is I find my search must continue. I will be watching this board a lot for comments and explanations and will try to post serious cogent and specific questions... But I won't respond just for the sake of acknowledging unless I can add something useful or ask an even more narrowing question. I noticed while watching this bit of thread that other brothers(sisters) do a fine job or making points or countering..

Thanks

[IBWatching]

I apologize in advance, seeing as how you don't like being spoken to by people you haven't addressed,...

There was a laughing smilie by my statement in that post. I wasn't offended. No apology necessary.

...I admit that I don't fully understand the mystery of the 7 churches in Rev, but the only "conclusive" proof I can see in 3:10 is that the church of Philadelphia won't be tempted during the Great Trib. I would assume this would mean that they aren't tempted to worship the beast, or receive the "mark of the beast"...

I see the word "testing" in that verse as a bit mild when compared to talking about judgment. That's why I can't join many of my fellow pre-tribbers as seeing it as "conclusive" proof of a pre-trib rapture. But the verse does seem to scare the "ek" out of some people.

...[edit]NM, sorry again, LOL, I see now that you are listing things that you DON'T agree with [/edit]

No problem. But I might point out that your quick reaction should tell you that you need to adjust your "reaction time" to what some pre-tribbers say. We don't all agree on all points...just like post-tribbers.

[Dragonfighter1]

It was either Keith Green or Steve Green that said...
"Pray for 'Pre', prepare for 'post' ".

I like the sentiment. If Post turns out to be correct I need to be prepared. How do I do that? what will it entail?

I think it was Keith Green. Wasnt he the one that died in 1982 in a plane crash.. The plane crash dude is the one I mean.

[Dragonfighter1]

Umm. Not sure about this question...


You know, if it is a post trib situation what on earth (pun WAS intended) are we going to do to survive?

Would it be possible to have a chat thread about how to prepare??

[IPet2_9]

It's Keith Green. Steve Green is still alive.