Why I disagree with the pre-tribulation rapture

[Dragonfighter1]

Folks were saved by faith, Jesus death atoning for all sin - of OT faithful, prior to Pentecost, why would the rapture of the Church prevent anyone from being saved during the tribulation?

I think the issue at this point in the discussion is...the absence of the Holy Spirit... (But perhaps I misunderstand)

No H.S.= No sealing with salvation etc..., no keeping, no advocate etc...

..And there is still the other question I mentioned earlier... that if we MUST follow (not precede) the resurrection of the dead in Christ, (as stated in Thessalonians) and if they aren't raised until Rev 20:5 how can there be resurrection before the "first" Resurrection of rev 20:5

Before you answer please understand I am asking respectfully. Many times I thought I understood something only to realize how wrong I was. That may be the case here too, but this is where I find my conundrum at the moment. (Thanks)

[Forgiven Alaskan]

Who is being ressurected there and when? I'm sorry I'm at work and don't have a Bible in front of me. I think I've heard it argued that the ones being raised are the Christians that were killed during the Trib, or the OT saints or something.

[Dragonfighter1]

Also.. if the H.S. isn't here to help us in the trib period.. then its going to be truly hopeless, 'cause without him(the H.S.) we don't stand any chance. It will be a bloodbath beyond comprehension. again perhaps I am wrong.

(I cant point to any scriptures right now to defend or support this thread part)

[Rookie78]

Also.. if the H.S. isn't here to help us in the trib period.. then its going to be truly hopeless, 'cause without him(the H.S.) we don't stand any chance. It will be a bloodbath beyond comprehension. again perhaps I am wrong.

(I cant point to any scriptures right now to defend or support this thread part)

Dragonfighter - The Holy Spirit will be removed before the coming of the antichrist (rapture). So if you're a christian, at that point you will already be gone.

Sometime after the H.S. leaves and the antichrist is revealed, He will come back once people begin to become saved again.

[Forgiven Alaskan]

it makes most sense to think that the Holy Spirit's power through the Church will be gone, but not the Holy Spirit himself. And when i say power through the Church I mainly mean the city on a hill witnessing type of power.

[DigReal]

I know it's common to believe the Holy Spirit = the restrainer, but is that spelled out in scripture? I'm drawing a blank trying to remember.

[TexasBeliever]

Also.. if the H.S. isn't here to help us in the trib period.. then its going to be truly hopeless, 'cause without him(the H.S.) we don't stand any chance. It will be a bloodbath beyond comprehension. again perhaps I am wrong.

(I cant point to any scriptures right now to defend or support this thread part)

I'm convinced the restrainer is not the holy spirit for two reasons: Jesus said "I will be with you until the end of the age." The end of THIS age concludes when He comes back to the earth to begin His reign on the throne of David. His holy spirit will be with us until then.
Reason 2: Michael is stated as being "the gaurdian of your people" (Israel), in the scriptures. It is Michael who guards and protects Israel and when He is ordered to step aside, then Israel will be unprotected.

[Richard H]

Who is being ressurected there and when? I'm sorry I'm at work and don't have a Bible in front of me. I think I've heard it argued that the ones being raised are the Christians that were killed during the Trib, or the OT saints or something.

I almost fell out of my chair when I scrolled up to read your message.
'Just wasn't expecting your avatar!


There’re two schools of thought as to exactly who is raised in the first resurrection:

• All the dead in Christ. (1 Thes 4:16)
• Just the Apostles and the martyrs. The rest of the Christians being raised with everyone else. (Rev 20:4-6)
  A very small school, but valid nevertheless.
• Actually three. Ranging FROM: those who didn’t know there are two resurrections TO those who never thought about it.
  Not exactly a school.

Neither concept really helps answer the question of pre or post or whatever.
And I don’t think it’ll be a question on the final.

I lean toward 7th trump, since Hal Lynsay’s favorite verse (1 Thes 4:13-17) - proving the validity of the rapture - actually states the sequence of events.
That part escaped Hal – just as it escaped Darby.

If we can determine where in Revelation, the 1st resurrection occurs, we can be sure that the rapture is not far behind.
Specifically dealing with the trumpets: 1 Thes 4:16 - 1 Cor 15:52 - Rev 10:7 - Rev 11:15.

Richard

[DigReal]

I think the issue at this point in the discussion is...the absence of the Holy Spirit... (But perhaps I misunderstand)

No H.S.= No sealing with salvation etc..., no keeping, no advocate etc...

(Thanks)

While reading this thread, I had a thought... just a thought.

Could the restrainer be the Church's prayers for the world, perhaps responded to by the Holy Spirit in the form of restraint? If so, would not the removal of the Church also remove the restrainer... without the removal of the Holy Spirit?

(I'm not pushing pre-trib, or post for that matter.) Just presenting a possibility.

[Dragonfighter1]

Regarding the last block of 4 or so posts...

I dont see how we can have a rapture before we have a resurrection. Thessalonians is explicit in saying the dead in Christ are raised THEN we who are alive go up...etc. How can there be a rapture for us before rev 20:5.

Either Rev 20:5 is wrong or a rapture before the raising of the dead is wrong.

(not trying to start a fight, just trying to get to the bottom of this portion of the discussion-and sorry to any if I sound offensive..'cause I dont mean to be)

[Richard H]

2nd Thessalonians seems to be written to a church who was upset – having come to the conclusion that they had been Left Behind.

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
2Th 2:1

TexesBeliever makes sense that the restrainer (2 Thes 2:7) is Michael.

"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
Dan 12:1

War stories even of recent Israel (as told by opponents) tell of large angels with flaming swords - scaring off Israel’s enemies.
'One reason military academies don’t study these battles – they have no practical lessons for war.

[crush]

Regarding the last block of 4 or so posts...

I dont see how we can have a rapture before we have a resurrection. Thessalonians is explicit in saying the dead in Christ are raised THEN we who are alive go up...etc. How can there be a rapture for us before rev 20:5.

Either Rev 20:5 is wrong or a rapture before the raising of the dead is wrong.

(not trying to start a fight, just trying to get to the bottom of this portion of the discussion-and sorry to any if I sound offensive..'cause I dont mean to be)

I think you got it figured out DF

The Holy Spirit being the restrainer and being removed from the Earth at the time He is MOST NEEDED is a classic example of bad doctrine gone bad LOL.

The world is not less wicked [or restrained] now than it was before Christ's ascension. The Holy Spirit's position is to be a Comforter, Helper, Teacher - etc. to CHRISTIANS, not prevent evil from occuring in an Evil World. Christians are not part of the world, and are not called to prevent evil things from happening, but rather expect them to happen.

We aren't told who the Restrainer is, so we have to guess. TexasBeliever has a good guess IMO, of Michael. Another good guess IMO would be the "angel with the key to the bottomless pit" - since he is "restraining" the beast "that will ascend out of the bottomless pit"

Holy Spirit being the restrainer is a super bad guess IMO.

[DigReal]

Regarding the last block of 4 or so posts...

I dont see how we can have a rapture before we have a resurrection. Thessalonians is explicit in saying the dead in Christ are raised THEN we who are alive go up...etc. How can there be a rapture for us before rev 20:5.

Either Rev 20:5 is wrong or a rapture before the raising of the dead is wrong.

(not trying to start a fight, just trying to get to the bottom of this portion of the discussion-and sorry to any if I sound offensive..'cause I dont mean to be)

To the pre-tribber, there is a resurrection of the dead in Christ just prior to a pre-trib rapture. At the end of trib/beginning of millennium, there is a second resurrection, of the tribulation martyrs (those killed for their new found acceptance of Christ), also called trib saints.

Hope that's what you're asking about, Dragonfighter. I also think it's reasonable to believe that Micheal is the restrainer (my earlier post being just another idea I've started considering... since I'm currently a pre-tribber). Either way, I doubt the restrainer is the Holy Spirit.

And don't worry, you don't sound the least bit offensive.

[markinro]

When I was just starting out in my walk, I heard about the rapture and a little curious I started asking some questions.

Contacted VanImpe ministries - they believe there will be THREE raptures. One prior, one during and one after. Hedging their bets maybe ?

Arguments for pre-trib refuted
- God called the Jews out of Egypt before the judgements. Did He really ? Then why did they need to apply the lambs blood to their doors ?
- The church is not mentioned in revelations, except the first few chapters. The book is entitled The Revelation of Jesus Christ. Its about Jesus, not the church
- the position is popular because it asserts a get out of jail free card. Its a position based on fear and cowardice (sorry if this sounds insulting - just being honest). The church up to the present has not been subjected to the condemnation the 1st century church endured
- the position "starts the clock" - it asserts the start of the final 7 years of history.

My fav - 88 Reasons the Rapture will occur in 1988. Some actually had their bags packed, ready to go home. Pure foolishness.

The arguments within the church on this topic are pointless. There are far more important issues. Did Jesus say in His Great Commission to sit around waiting for the rapture ?

I think if the church started to behave like the church Jesus expects, this discussion would fade away.

[markinro]

Who is being ressurected there and when? I'm sorry I'm at work and don't have a Bible in front of me. I think I've heard it argued that the ones being raised are the Christians that were killed during the Trib, or the OT saints or something.

You know, for a second there - when I just glanced over at the avatar...then I thought "Nah, she wouldn't be on this board, would she ?"