Why I disagree with the pre-tribulation rapture

[Richard H]

You know, for a second there - when I just glanced over at the avatar...then I thought "Nah, she wouldn't be on this board, would she ?"

I've seen Bennie Hin here too.

[Dragonfighter1]

When I was just starting out in my walk, I heard about the rapture and a little curious I started asking some questions.

Contacted VanImpe ministries - they believe there will be THREE raptures. One prior, one during and one after. Hedging their bets maybe ?

Arguments for pre-trib refuted
- God called the Jews out of Egypt before the judgements. Did He really ? Then why did they need to apply the lambs blood to their doors ?
- The church is not mentioned in revelations, except the first few chapters. The book is entitled The Revelation of Jesus Christ. Its about Jesus, not the church
- the position is popular because it asserts a get out of jail free card. Its a position based on fear and cowardice (sorry if this sounds insulting - just being honest). The church up to the present has not been subjected to the condemnation the 1st century church endured
- the position "starts the clock" - it asserts the start of the final 7 years of history.

My fav - 88 Reasons the Rapture will occur in 1988. Some actually had their bags packed, ready to go home. Pure foolishness.

The arguments within the church on this topic are pointless. There are far more important issues. Did Jesus say in His Great Commission to sit around waiting for the rapture ?

I think if the church started to behave like the church Jesus expects, this discussion would fade away.

(Bold underline done by me) I think you make an excellent point.
So, other than evangelism and christian education efforts... what do you personally think we should do to prepare practically to live thru the trib? Any thoughts? I'd like to hear any at all

[Richard H]

(Bold underline done by me) I think you make an excellent point.
So, other than evangelism and christian education efforts... what do you personally think we should do to prepare practically to live thru the trib? Any thoughts? I'd like to hear any at all

Evangelizing with a post trib/seventh trumpet message isn’t too attractive to the unsaved.
To be blunt:
Telling people that IF we are in the last days, there’s a chance they will not be able to buy or sell and may even get their head cut off, certainly won’t pack the pews.

Rather, the gospel should be the gospel as it always has been (until pre-trib came along).

Still, one must wonder how those of old were able to cling to their faith despite some horrible endings.
Do you think pre-trib churches are ready for such a possibility?

Discussions like these - among the saints - are valuable so that we might make our faith and trust even more steadfast - having dispensed the questions which plagued the Thessalonians, we are freed up to press on toward the higher calling.

If I’m wrong, and we all get a ticket out of town, that’s OK by me.
In the mean time, I want to deepen my relationship with the Lord, so I can better trust Him to see me through.

Richard

[DigReal]

Yes, it is an excellent point... arguments tend to divide, and that's the last thing the Church needs these days. However, discussions tend to enlighten... something we need to be doing in regards to the unsaved out there. And that leads to your next question, DF.

I now try to live by "pray for pre-trib, prepare for post trib". When I started to really study end times prophecy (only 2 months ago), I believed there was no reason for the Church of today to somehow be spared the tribulation. After all, for 2000 years Christians have faced atrocities hard to imagine by those of us blessed to be living in the U.S. today. I still believe that!

From what I've learned so far, the only instruction for preparation I can find is to not be afraid... the Lord will provide. I think I know what to make of that, but not certain yet. So, I'm with you, DF... let's hear what others have to say.

[Dragonfighter1]

Evangelizing with a post trib/seventh trumpet message isn’t too attractive to the unsaved.
To be blunt:
Telling people that IF we are in the last days, there’s a chance they will not be able to buy or sell and may even get their head cut off, certainly won’t pack the pews.
Richard

HOWLS OF DERISIVE LAUGHTER

[Dragonfighter1]

No, actually I meant what can we do to prepare practically to protect or survive. SHould we: Pack dried food, store water, buy guns... the usual "world is ending" stuff. I think some practical things might be smart....

[Richard H]

No, actually I meant what can we do to prepare practically to protect or survive. SHould we: Pack dried food, store water, buy guns... the usual "world is ending" stuff. I think some practical things might be smart....

AWww... And I tried to sneek that past everybody. Heehee

Food and water is good.
Cans - Dried - water filter
'May be needed with this economy anyway.

Richard

[markinro]

No, actually I meant what can we do to prepare practically to protect or survive. SHould we: Pack dried food, store water, buy guns... the usual "world is ending" stuff. I think some practical things might be smart....

Why the concern ? You're not of this world.

[markinro]

(Bold underline done by me) I think you make an excellent point.
So, other than evangelism and christian education efforts... what do you personally think we should do to prepare practically to live thru the trib? Any thoughts? I'd like to hear any at all

The same way we lived before the tribulation. Why would it be any different ?

[TexasBeliever]

Regarding the last block of 4 or so posts...

I dont see how we can have a rapture before we have a resurrection. Thessalonians is explicit in saying the dead in Christ are raised THEN we who are alive go up...etc. How can there be a rapture for us before rev 20:5.

Either Rev 20:5 is wrong or a rapture before the raising of the dead is wrong.

(not trying to start a fight, just trying to get to the bottom of this portion of the discussion-and sorry to any if I sound offensive..'cause I dont mean to be)

You are right. Resurrection is before rapture. And in the scriptures it happens at the physical coming of the Lord, so that is when the rapture also happens. This proves that the res/rap does not happen at the beginning of the end of days. It also proves that since believers are not subject to the wrath of God, everything that happens up to the physical coming of the Lord is tribulation. As the Lord said, "after the tribulation of those days, THEN you will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power and great glory, and He will gather His chosen from one end of heaven to the other." It also states that at this same point, "Now is the time to reward your servants and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

[Dragonfighter1]

The same way we lived before the tribulation. Why would it be any different ?

Well, ermm, if for the sake of this discussion we are going to assume that we must survive through the trib..... then the question is valid.

It should be considered because the persecution we will endure will/may be easier to endure if we were appropriately prepared.

( I think)

[TexasBeliever]

2nd Thessalonians seems to be written to a church who was upset – having come to the conclusion that they had been Left Behind.

Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
2Th 2:1

TexesBeliever makes sense that the restrainer (2 Thes 2:7) is Michael.

"Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
Dan 12:1

War stories even of recent Israel (as told by opponents) tell of large angels with flaming swords - scaring off Israel’s enemies.
'One reason military academies don’t study these battles – they have no practical lessons for war.

Correct. Not only were they afraid they had been left behind, but now they were going to be subject to the wrath of the Lamb.
Paul assured them that two things must come before the wrath of God (Day of the Lord) AND our gathering together unto the Lord: the apostasy of believers and the revelation of the antichrist, which Paul said happens when he declares himself God while in the temple.
By the way, the antichrist is going to be "revealed" ie: publicly to Israel and the world, the same way that Jesus revealed Himself. Jesus stood in the temple and said, "The Father and I are one and the same."

[TexasBeliever]

When I was just starting out in my walk, I heard about the rapture and a little curious I started asking some questions.

Contacted VanImpe ministries - they believe there will be THREE raptures. One prior, one during and one after. Hedging their bets maybe ?

Arguments for pre-trib refuted
- God called the Jews out of Egypt before the judgements. Did He really ? Then why did they need to apply the lambs blood to their doors ?
- The church is not mentioned in revelations, except the first few chapters. The book is entitled The Revelation of Jesus Christ. Its about Jesus, not the church
- the position is popular because it asserts a get out of jail free card. Its a position based on fear and cowardice (sorry if this sounds insulting - just being honest). The church up to the present has not been subjected to the condemnation the 1st century church endured
- the position "starts the clock" - it asserts the start of the final 7 years of history.

My fav - 88 Reasons the Rapture will occur in 1988. Some actually had their bags packed, ready to go home. Pure foolishness.

The arguments within the church on this topic are pointless. There are far more important issues. Did Jesus say in His Great Commission to sit around waiting for the rapture ?

I think if the church started to behave like the church Jesus expects, this discussion would fade away.

Further commenting on your point concerning mention of the churches in Revelation, many people seem to overlook the fact that Revelation is given TO THE CHURCHES. Why do that at all if the churches are gone?
Then Revelation closes with: "I Jesus, have sent My angel to make these revelations to you FOR THE SAKE OF THE CHURCHES."

[TexasBeliever]

When I was just starting out in my walk, I heard about the rapture and a little curious I started asking some questions.

Contacted VanImpe ministries - they believe there will be THREE raptures. One prior, one during and one after. Hedging their bets maybe ?

Arguments for pre-trib refuted
- God called the Jews out of Egypt before the judgements. Did He really ? Then why did they need to apply the lambs blood to their doors ?
- The church is not mentioned in revelations, except the first few chapters. The book is entitled The Revelation of Jesus Christ. Its about Jesus, not the church
- the position is popular because it asserts a get out of jail free card. Its a position based on fear and cowardice (sorry if this sounds insulting - just being honest). The church up to the present has not been subjected to the condemnation the 1st century church endured
- the position "starts the clock" - it asserts the start of the final 7 years of history.

My fav - 88 Reasons the Rapture will occur in 1988. Some actually had their bags packed, ready to go home. Pure foolishness.

The arguments within the church on this topic are pointless. There are far more important issues. Did Jesus say in His Great Commission to sit around waiting for the rapture ?

I think if the church started to behave like the church Jesus expects, this discussion would fade away.

I have to disagree with the statement "The arguments within the church on this topic are pointless."
Really? Jesus didn't think so. He thought it was extremenly important. He told us this and this and this, etc, etc., is going to happen. He said do not be deceived. He said terrible times will happen in the last days. He said you will be persecuted and put to death. He said "I have told you everything before hand." Why? so that we would be prepared mentally and spiritually.
But here we are, on the very cusp of these prophecies being fulfilled and
a huge portion of the church isn't even aware of endtime prophecies; and
a huge portion of the church dosen't think we will be here for the endtime prophecies.
Rapture position is extremely important. If scripture points to a posttrib rapture, and I beleive it does, then this tells us everything that happens up to that point is tribulation (the events Jesus warned us about) and we will be involved in it.

[TexasBeliever]

Well, ermm, if for the sake of this discussion we are going to assume that we must survive through the trib..... then the question is valid.

It should be considered because the persecution we will endure will/may be easier to endure if we were appropriately prepared.

( I think)

I went over and over in my mind how to physically prepare for this. So far I haven't thought of anything.
I realized that we won't be able to store anything in our home because if we can't buy and sell we won't be able to make house payments or pay the taxes.
And once we refuse the mark of the beast there will probably be a bounty on our heads, literally. So in order to even have the possibility of survival, we will have to be in hiding far away from cities and towns. So that would leave swamps, forests, etc. And if they come looking for us there, we won't even be able to build a fire for warmth or cooking. And if they have night vision or heat signature devices, there won't be anywhere to hide except maybe caves. It's bleak.