Why I disagree with the pre-tribulation rapture

[tango]

Is the idea to run and hide, and end up dying like a hunted animal? Or is the idea to preach to those who are hunting us, in the hope that the Spirit will convict them through us?

Incidentally, if we're hiding in groups in a cave we can probably be detected from the carbon dioxide we exhale. Or from anything we used to cast some light around.

[markinro]

Mt 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

[Richard H]

I’ve often wondered even before I came to the 7th Trump conclusion, “why would pre-tribbers spend so much time studying and analyzing a time when in their words: ‘we won’t be here’”.
It seemed to be almost (what’s the word people like to use now?) “Schadenfreude”.

A supply of water and dry/canned goods and even lamp oil and batteries: are always helpful during an emergency, but you are not going to get “enough” to last 7 or even 3 ½ years.
Then you have the problem of protecting your stash from possible marauders. Will you get a gun and shoot them?
Having a bicycle is a good idea.
It may even be possible to prepay your property taxes, but who has that kind of money?

Rather, provide for yourself and your family for a “short” duration as best you can.
Concentrate on drawing near to God and bringing the Good News to those you encounter.
Pray.
Trust in the Lord and try not to worry about tomorrow too much.
Today’s problems are enough to deal with. God is able to keep you in His hand.

Digging in and hiding under a rock gives no glory to God.

Even if you don’t think the time is close or you are still convinced of the pre-trib rapture – it does not matter.
We should be about our Father’s business.
We are no longer of this world, and our time here is short, so make the most of it, by strengthening your faith, helping the needy, and leading the blind to the One who has the future in His hands.

Richard

[markdrums]

I'd like to point out something "deeper" about the orginal post. (Which has since kinda derailed a bit...)

When Markedward explained why he disagrees with the "Pre-Trib" viewpoint, he mentioned the difference between exegesis & eisegesis.

This is important on a bigger level than just determining a viepoint & opinion on "The Rapture".

If someone bases their beliefs by reading EISEGETICALLY, how much more of the Bible is misinterpreted & misunderstood for the very same reason?

This brings to mind the questions / issues like:
"A 3rd Temple"?
"Salvation by grace or by works?"
"ALWAYS SAVED.. or not always Saved"?
"Baptism REQUIRED for salvation"?
"Was the work FINISHED on the cross"? "Or did Jesus have to suffer in Hell too"?
"What did Jesus REALLY mean during the Olivet Discourse"? - "Did he mean a far-future generation when he said THIS generation"?
"When he says some of those standing there would not tatse death", did he mean just that? Or not?
"When John wrote TO the seven churches in Asia, and told them the time was NEAR / at hand / and would SOON TAKE PLACE, did he really mean over 2000 years later?"

So, there's much more importance in learing to read scripture EXEGETICALLY than just to figure out your "Rapture" viewpoint.
By not reading it & interpreting it as it was intended, & letting SCRIPTURE ITSELF be the key to understanding it, you can end up totally missing the mark, and coming up with some bizzare interpretations.

That's pretty much all I have to add at this time.

Just think about it..... ask yourself what's REALLY important when you read the Bible. Knowing WHAT GOD SAID... or making it fit to a pre-conceived idea of what you want it to?

[markinro]

I'd like to point out something "deeper" about the orginal post. (Which has since kinda derailed a bit...)

When Markedward explained why he disagrees with the "Pre-Trib" viewpoint, he mentioned the difference between exegesis & eisegesis.

This is important on a bigger level than just determining a viepoint & opinion on "The Rapture".

If someone bases their beliefs by reading EISEGETICALLY, how much more of the Bible is misinterpreted & misunderstood for the very same reason?

This brings to mind the questions / issues like:
"A 3rd Temple"?
"Salvation by grace or by works?"
"ALWAYS SAVED.. or not always Saved"?
"Baptism REQUIRED for salvation"?
"Was the work FINISHED on the cross"? "Or did Jesus have to suffer in Hell too"?
"What did Jesus REALLY mean during the Olivet Discourse"? - "Did he mean a far-future generation when he said THIS generation"?
"When he says some of those standing there would not tatse death", did he mean just that? Or not?
"When John wrote TO the seven churches in Asia, and told them the time was NEAR / at hand / and would SOON TAKE PLACE, did he really mean over 2000 years later?"

So, there's much more importance in learing to read scripture EXEGETICALLY than just to figure out your "Rapture" viewpoint.
By not reading it & interpreting it as it was intended, & letting SCRIPTURE ITSELF be the key to understanding it, you can end up totally missing the mark, and coming up with some bizzare interpretations.

That's pretty much all I have to add at this time.

Just think about it..... ask yourself what's REALLY important when you read the Bible. Knowing WHAT GOD SAID... or making it fit to a pre-conceived idea of what you want it to?

The title of this thead "Why I disagree with the pre-trib rapture". We have stayed on topic. Which posts have diverged ?

I agree with your comment. The pre-trib position is a prime example of "making it fit to a pre-conceived idea of what you want it to"

[yoSAMite]

Concerning the restrainer being the Holy Spirit. I believe that the correct full answer is that the restrainer is "the indewlt Holy Spirit in the church."

It seems to me that the Holy Spirit has a unique and specific role within the church as demonstrated by the verses below.
John 14:26 - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
John 15:26 - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me
John 16:7 - Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you

So I take it to mean that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit or the Comforter in this special role. This by no means restricts the Holy Spirit in any other capacity to indwell other saints, both OT saints nor post church saints.

[yoSAMite]

Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21
Christ's chronology in the Olivet Discourse is perhaps the clearest of all of His prophecies. He states that things will happen in this order:

1. False christs, wars and rumors of wars
2. Nations against nations, kingdoms against kingdoms
3. Famines, earthquakes, pestilences
4. Then persecution of the followers of Christ
5. Apostasy, betrayal, false prophets
6. The gospel preached to all
7. Then the end will come
8. Armies siege Jerusalem, in relation to the "abomination that causes desolation"
9. The destruction of the city of Jerusalem/the temple
10. At that time will be false prophets and false christs to deceive "even the elect"
11. After the distresses will be the darkening of the sun and the moon, and the falling of the stars
12. At that time will the Son of Man come and send out His angels

Where in this time line would the death of Stephen in about 54AD fall. I would think that it was before #1 as Luke 21:12 states "But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, ...". You seem to be using Matthew 24 as your outline Matt 24:9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you." I see a bit of a conflict here.

Concerning #8, this is your Eisegesis as the text doesn't imply the armies siege of Jerusalem has anything to do with the "abomination that causes desolation." Luke does speak of the desolation of Jerusalem, but I don't believe that is the same as the AOD.

With #7 I've been thinking about this since you thread on "the meaning of near and time." By your reckoning shouldn't the end already have come if it was near after the destruction of Jerusalem?

[divaD]

Concerning the restrainer being the Holy Spirit. I believe that the correct full answer is that the restrainer is "the indewlt Holy Spirit in the church."

It seems to me that the Holy Spirit has a unique and specific role within the church as demonstrated by the verses below.
John 14:26 - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
John 15:26 - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me
John 16:7 - Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you

So I take it to mean that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit or the Comforter in this special role. This by no means restricts the Holy Spirit in any other capacity to indwell other saints, both OT saints nor post church saints.

I still have to wonder, has anyone even taken the time to check the last part of this verse in the Greek?

2 Thessalonians 2:7 until he be taken out of the way




taken----ginomai
Pronunciation

ge'-no-mi (Key)
Part of Speech

verb
Root Word (Etymology)

a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary
verb
TDNT Reference

1:681,117
Vines

View Entry

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen

a) of events

3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage

a) of men appearing in public

4) to be made, finished

a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought

5) to become, be made

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++



out---ek
Pronunciation

ek (Key)
Part of Speech

preposition
Root Word (Etymology)

a primary preposition denoting origin (the point
whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of
place, time, or cause; literal or figurative
TDNT Reference

n/a
Vines

View Entry

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) out of, from, by, away from
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++



way--mesos


Part of Speech

adjective
Root Word (Etymology)

from G3326
TDNT Reference

n/a
Vines

View Entry

Outline of Biblical Usage

1) middle

2) the midst

3) in the midst of, amongst
__________________________________________________ _________________________



I still want to know how anyone can claim that anyone is being taken out of the way? That's not what the Greek is saying.

Ask yourself these questions, then see if the text answers them?

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.


Know what that withholdeth? The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. As that the day of Christ is at hand.

Who might be revealed in his time? That man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.



only he who now letteth.

Restrains what? The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. As that the day of Christ is at hand.


until he be taken out of the way.


Until who arises, comes on stage out of the midst? The son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This answers the entire passage.

[Acerohombre]

Look, I know everybody wants to be happy and everybody wants to believe that Jesus has them nestled up with His arms all wrapped around them all warm and fuzzy completely out of harms way but it simply doesn't follow the Bible. It's really more of the opposite.

We have been repeatedly warned that we are sheep being led to the slaughter. Our roots need to grow deep and people who believe that there will be a pre-trib rapture very well may wilt under pressure if they are tried. They might get that "why isn't Jesus here" attitude when they need to set in their hearts that it's much more fruitful to DIE a believer than to place their trust in this make believe pre-trib rapture event. I don't mind telling anyone that it's just an outright fib. The history associated with it's "discovery" into theology is highly suspect and doubted.

I didn't read all of the posts for forgive me if I am duplicating. There's just so much to read. I really only wanted to comment on the first original post.

Again, I too never felt comfortable with Pre-tib rapture theology. John representing the "church" just didn't sit well with me. When you read Rev it is made clear that the Antichrist figure is to make "war with the Saints." Simply said, there can't be a war with the Saints (Rev 13:7) if Christians are not alive on the Earth at the time of the Great Tribulation.

When you read Rev you will see identifications of believers. In the early portion of the book they are referred to as "washed their robes" which is an indication that they believed before the events that are taking place to bring about the end. Rev 7:14 is a great indication of that as you see a multitude of people who have "washed their robes with the blood of the Lamb." The dead in Christ shall rise first.

When you continue on in Rev and you get to Chapter 14 you will find the rewards of the Saint for being patient in great tribulation.

Rev 14:12. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14. And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Now, when you parallel these events with what we commonly know as the "rapture" in 1 Thes 4:16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:

Now, when does all of this take place? Rev Ch 14 are events that take place as the last trumpet is being sounded all the way back in Rev Ch 11. Chapters 12 and 13 are somewhat historical or a summarization and it's more like a "meanwhile, back at the office" kind of thing too but it's bringing all of the events to this culmination in Ch 14.

Ch 13 clearly shows us the Antichrist and the False Prophet. Ch 14 warns not to worship him. The temptation to worship the AC is the test that is coming to try the whole world and even we as Christians will be tempted to do so. All peoples of the Earth are going to be tried in this manner except for true believing Christians. When you go back to Rev 3: 10.in the letter to the church of Philadelphia, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

And I always like to follow up this with a reminder of the Lord's prayer in that Jesus so rightfully says "and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil".

And, if you go further into Rev, from Ch 14 on you will see that believers are now the ones that must die by beheading rather than from the blood of the Lamb in order to stand redeemed in front of the throne at the judgment.

And to add a little more....

In the letters to the churches you see this statement at the end of each letter, "He that hath an ear, let him hear", but just preceding the "rapture" event in Ch 14 that will remove those that are alive and remain, to keep them from the hour of temptation, to keep them from worshiping the beast and his image, you see a similar statement in Rev 13 at the disclosing of the AC and FP but it says "IF any man have an ear, let him hear" which is God's final warning to the inhabitants of the earth for now is the time of his judgment.

[Dragonfighter1]

Not to stir the pot too much...but...If I was the devil and I wanted to really make my end times efforts as effective as possible...

I would:

1./ Infiltrate the church and fill it with as much confusion and false doctrine as I could get away with

2./ Get them to fight over stuff one group calls silly and the other calls important

3./ Get them to feel safe so that my attack is so much more effective and damaging

Looks to me like all of us have fallen for some of his tricks in some way or another... None of us is impervious. However the pretrib theory may be one of the most damaging. Lets face it, if we are not planning and thinking about how to survive the trib/end times etc... then we are going to be the most hurt and confused when it occurs.

I think it will be a little like the children of Israel when they went into captivity. I'm sure there were a great many that said "God will see us through", "God will not let his people suffer" and similar statements.

I fear for those who really think that hardship is something we are protected from. History disproves that.

This is just my opinion and I do not seek to hurt anyone feelings.

[quiet dove]

Well, being pre trib, you guys can assume a human being to be able to stand up against the wrath of God and spend time trying to figure out how to do it, good luck to ya.

No, I will make no attempt to kid my self on being able to handle what God can dish out, besides, He promised His children were not destined to wrath so I am not going to fear His wrath. In the next life, or this one either. And as far as Satan goes, he can do nothing but kill my physical body, same today as in the GT, if I were going to be here.

Our batttles are currently not against flesh and blood, why would anyone assume those battles are not going to begin until the GT, the Bible clearly states the battle is every day through out history. Regardless of a persons end time views, now is the time to learn to walk in the Spirit, that is what we are commanded to do.

Satan will be doing during the GT what he has been doing all along, attempting to kill the saints, however, God will be doing what He has not been doing all along, and that is pouring out His wrath upon the disobedient, and no, I don't for one second fear Him leaving me to suffer His wrath upon the disobedient upon the earth any more than I fear suffering His eternal judgment upon the disobedient.

But if you want to call that weak, then whatever suits you I guess. But my faith is strong enough that the One who loved me while I was still in my sin and died for me, is the same one that will keep me from the Fathers wrath, not only in the next life, but in this one also.

[Dragonfighter1]

Well, being pre trib, you guys can assume a human being to be able to stand up against the wrath of God and spend time trying to figure out how to do it, good luck to ya.

No, I will make no attempt to kid my self on being able to handle what God can dish out, besides, He promised His children were not destined to wrath so I am not going to fear His wrath. In the next life, or this one either. And as far as Satan goes, he can do nothing but kill my physical body, same today as in the GT, if I were going to be here.

Our batttles are currently not against flesh and blood, why would anyone assume those battles are not going to begin until the GT, the Bible clearly states the battle is every day through out history. Regardless of a persons end time views, now is the time to learn to walk in the Spirit, that is what we are commanded to do.

Satan will be doing during the GT what he has been doing all along, attempting to kill the saints, however, God will be doing what He has not been doing all along, and that is pouring out His wrath upon the disobedient, and no, I don't for one second fear Him leaving me to suffer His wrath upon the disobedient upon the earth any more than I fear suffering His eternal judgment upon the disobedient.

But if you want to call that weak, then whatever suits you I guess. But my faith is strong enough that the One who loved me while I was still in my sin and died for me, is the same one that will keep me from the Fathers wrath, not only in the next life, but in this one also.

Easy quiet Dove, I didn't mean to offend you . I don't think post tribbers fear Gods wrath either.. if we are his children we will be safe just at the children of Israel were during the plagues of Egypt. However the Antichrist will have greater power to create havoc for us then, and I think it would be wise to realize that yes all he can do is kill us, but before we die what can he put us through? My children being killed before my eyes is a real possibility (as the Jews of WWII saw) Anyone who thinks the GT will be a cake walk- no different than today- will have the hardest time adjusting.

[quiet dove]

Easy quiet Dove, I didn't mean to offend you . I don't think post tribbers fear Gods wrath either.. if we are his children we will be safe just at the children of Israel were during the plagues of Egypt. However the Antichrist will have greater power to create havoc for us then, and I think it would be wise to realize that yes all he can do is kill us, but before we die what can he put us through? My children being killed before my eyes is a real possibility (as the Jews of WWII saw) Anyone who thinks the GT will be a cake walk- no different than today- will have the hardest time adjusting.

I have to admit, it is a sore spot with me, but just as much in defense of others, not limited to only me. However, I am not angry but just trying to make a point so let me back up some an clarifiy why.

I believe the GT is God's wrath and I believe that based on Rev 6 in that Christ is the only one worthy to open the seals of His Fathers wrath. The disobedient have sinned against Him and He is the only one worthy. That is why or one of the whys I believe we will not be here for the GT, the wrath of God.

To equate this time of wrath with the trials and tribulations Christians are told they will endure to me is inaccurate. Yes, we are taught that we will follow in Christ foot steps, or we should strive to do so and not be surprised when, like Christ, we are persecuted. But that is not God's wrath.

We are also told that a Father who loves, chastises and disciplines, but again, that chastisment and discipline is not God's wrath.

Also, being pre trib does not equate to thinking life will be all roses until we leave here. There may be some who teach that, but there are people teaching things in all views that the mainstream of that view disagrees with.

And what about the people here now, the hungry, homeless, lonely, scared, not to mention the persecutted and suffering. Thinking that pre tribbers selfishly are only concerned about themselves is wrong. When that trumpet blows, say it blew today, I would be taken from what is a peaceful pretty good life. I'm not rich or anything, far from it. But I have people I love that love me, I am free to worship as I please and living in peace. But if that trumpet blows today, I am taken from a pretty good set up here. But, what about those, who if that trumpet blew today would be taken from suffering, persecution, hunger, homelessness, lonelyness. Do other views really think I, or other pre tribbers, only want the rapture just for ourselves? Far from it.

I think what frustrates me the most is the awesome mercy and grace that gets looked over in the whole bash the pre trib rapture business. I understand that is not the intention, but none the less, it is a reprocussion of it.

Discipline and chastisement, which are the trials God allows, yes. His wrath, no. Are we refined by trials/persecution, maybe, but I would say the way to be refined is obedience and the "washing of water by the Word". the discipline and chastisement bring us back to the obedience and the washing.

[Richard H]

Only the bowls of wrath are God's wrath.
We're all out of here at the 7th trumpet - the last trump.
None of us are destined for His wrath.

<just wanted to point that out - as it needed to be said>
Richard

[tHbaGLORY]

I gotta say...I am tired of other rapture positions assuming that pre-tribbers are going to be duped by the AC or abandon their faith if a pre-trib rapture does not occur. As Christians we are indwelt with the Spirit of God himself and our adoption as sons and daughters is undeniable and unbreakable. The persecutions of Christians in some parts of the world are as bad now as it will be for Christians during the tribulation. Is the Christian that dies for his faith now any less dead than a Christian martyred during the tribulation??? What have we to fear?? Is it our own minds that prepare us to die for our faith--or is it the work of the Holy Spirit??? I think we all know the answer to that question given how pathetically weak our minds are. Not a hair can fall from my head without the will of my father in heaven and who by worrying can add one more hour to their life??? Our victory is won in Christ. I am eternally secure, and the Holy Spirit of God himself will see me through anything that I might face--and that goes for ALL followers of Christ Jesus...