Why I disagree with the pre-tribulation rapture

[Jude]

Torch of Truth International

Rekindling the flame of truth in America and the World.

This expose' is for those who are seeking truth.. Beloved, you did not come to this site by accident but by the Power of the Holy Spirit. If you are certain that its by accident, leave now. But on the other hand, if the Holy Spirit is leading you..you will find this article to be surprising, shocking and soul stirring. The rapture theory is not Biblical and was founded as an Anti-Reformation tool of the Catholic Church. Reformers such as Luther, Calvin, Huss, Zwingli, Melanchthon, Bullinger and others had identified the Catholic Church as Mystery Babylon in Revelation and the Popes as the Anti-Christ. Millions of sincere Catholics were leaving the mother church and joining the reformation movement.. The church set out to neutralize and destroy the protestant movement.. What they could not do through brute force and the military inquisitions they did through political espionage, spiritual intrigue, and using mind control techniques by secret societies.

Why were sincere Catholics, priests and monks leaving the Catholic Church.?

People were leaving because of corruptions in the church. If one look at the Babylonian sun worship, and the present Roman Catholic Mass there are many similarities. Baal worship seem to have taken over the Catholic Church. The icon of the virgin mother and child with halos (representing the sun), Mary as the queen of heaven, (Isis - queen of heaven) confessionals, wafer worship, transubstantiation, and priests as exclusive mediators of God were all derived from the Satanic Babylonian religion. Roman Catholicism became a mixture of witchcraft, Judaism, paganism, and perverted Christianity. When this corruptions was exposed by the reformers, Rome was outraged, and staged Holy Inquisitions, design to rid the world of heretics. The Inquisition included torturing and murdering people who didn't not agree with the Catholic views. Ten of thousands of people were killed and some historians even put the numbers in the millions. Later, in response to the Vatican's oppressive dogma, Martin Luther, a former Augustinian monk, nailed his 95 theses to the wall of a church in Germany, heralding Protestantism. . The Vatican was shaken as Protestantism spreads rapidly through Europe. In order to stamp out the spiritual rebellion, Pope Paul III ordered Ignatius de Loyola to found the Order of Jesuits, which would act as the intelligentsia and secret militia of the Vatican. Loyola had already founded the occult Illuminati, which he then placed under the umbrella of the Vatican ” Ignatius a Merovingian Jew from Loyola Spain was a member of the Alumbrados before he founded the Illuminati and the Jesuits. The Merovingian Jews claim to be decedents of Jesus and Mary of Magdalene. Thus you have books and movies like DaVinci Code, Prieure de Sion, Passover Plot, Holy Blood Holy Grail, Bloodline of the Holy Grail, being produced and circulated by Hollywood Kabbalist movie studios and publishing houses controlled by the Illuminati. These books are blasphemas teachings design to nullify the true Gospel of Jesus. Many of the Popes, Cardinals, Bishops and Priest were Merovingian Jews whose agenda was to destroy true Christianity and pervert the true gospel.

It was when Pope Paul III convened the Council of Trent that the church formally addressed the protestant reformation with edicts, dogmas and doctrines. A disciple of Ignatius, Francisco Ribera came up with a theory that would take the attention off the Pope as being the Anti-Christ and put it on some future individual. This was the beginning of the Rapture doctrine. The Jesuits infiltrated the protestant movement, developed protestant theology, and purposely mis interpreted scriptures relating to Bible prophecy. They also controlled the educational system and bribe and blackmailed governments of Europe and America to promote their agenda. Two other groups that were instrumental the origin and development of the rapture theory were the Knights Templars (Masons) and the Knights of Malta (Knights of Columbus).


Jude

[Dragonfighter1]

[quote=Jude;1828482]Torch of Truth International

Rekindling the flame of truth in America and the World.

This expose' is for those who are seeking truth.. Beloved, you did not come to this site by accident but by the Power of the Holy Spirit. If you are certain that its by accident, leave now. But on the other hand, if the Holy Spirit is leading you..you will find this article to be surprising, shocking and soul stirring. The rapture theory is not Biblical and was founded as an Anti-Reformation tool of the Catholic Church. Reformers such as Luther, Calvin, Huss, Zwingli, Melanchthon, Bullinger and others had identified the Catholic Church as Mystery Babylon in Revelation and the Popes as the Anti-Christ. Millions of sincere Catholics were leaving the mother church and joining the reformation movement.. The church set out to neutralize and destroy the protestant movement.. What they could not do through brute force and the military inquisitions they did through political espionage, spiritual intrigue, and using mind control techniques by secret societies.

Why were sincere Catholics, priests and monks leaving the Catholic Church.?

People were leaving because of corruptions in the church. If one look at the Babylonian sun worship, and the present Roman Catholic Mass there are many similarities. Baal worship seem to have taken over the Catholic Church. The icon of the virgin mother and child with halos (representing the sun), Mary as the queen of heaven, (Isis - queen of heaven) confessionals, wafer worship, transubstantiation, and priests as exclusive mediators of God were all derived from the Satanic Babylonian religion. Roman Catholicism became a mixture of witchcraft, Judaism, paganism, and perverted Christianity. When this corruptions was exposed by the reformers, Rome was outraged, and staged Holy Inquisitions, design to rid the world of heretics. The Inquisition included torturing and murdering people who didn't not agree with the Catholic views. Ten of thousands of people were killed and some historians even put the numbers in the millions. Later, in response to the Vatican's oppressive dogma, Martin Luther, a former Augustinian monk, nailed his 95 theses to the wall of a church in Germany, heralding Protestantism. . The Vatican was shaken as Protestantism spreads rapidly through Europe. In order to stamp out the spiritual rebellion, Pope Paul III ordered Ignatius de Loyola to found the Order of Jesuits, which would act as the intelligentsia and secret militia of the Vatican. Loyola had already founded the occult Illuminati, which he then placed under the umbrella of the Vatican ” Ignatius a Merovingian Jew from Loyola Spain was a member of the Alumbrados before he founded the Illuminati and the Jesuits. The Merovingian Jews claim to be decedents of Jesus and Mary of Magdalene. Thus you have books and movies like DaVinci Code, Prieure de Sion, Passover Plot, Holy Blood Holy Grail, Bloodline of the Holy Grail, being produced and circulated by Hollywood Kabbalist movie studios and publishing houses controlled by the Illuminati. These books are blasphemas teachings design to nullify the true Gospel of Jesus. Many of the Popes, Cardinals, Bishops and Priest were Merovingian Jews whose agenda was to destroy true Christianity and pervert the true gospel.

It was when Pope Paul III convened the Council of Trent that the church formally addressed the protestant reformation with edicts, dogmas and doctrines. A disciple of Ignatius, Francisco Ribera came up with a theory that would take the attention off the Pope as being the Anti-Christ and put it on some future individual. This was the beginning of the Rapture doctrine. The Jesuits infiltrated the protestant movement, developed protestant theology, and purposely mis interpreted scriptures relating to Bible prophecy. They also controlled the educational system and bribe and blackmailed governments of Europe and America to promote their agenda. Two other groups that were instrumental the origin and development of the rapture theory were the Knights Templars (Masons) and the Knights of Malta (Knights of Columbus).
Jude[/quote]

You said.......Many of the Popes, Cardinals, Bishops and Priest were Merovingian Jews whose agenda was to destroy true Christianity and pervert the true gospel.

WHO? DO tell us ? I'd like to know.

[Marc B]

Very interesting reading. Please post links to elaborate. I'd like to read up more on how the rapture theory came to be.

[Dragonfighter1]

Very interesting reading. Please post links to elaborate. I'd like to read up more on how the rapture theory came to be.

Marc, you deserve the Double can of worms award (also known as the moonglow award after its first recipient) for that question.

Lets see if I'm right.. somewhere in the next few answers you are going to end up with this person...

Irish, charismatic, catholic, teenager, having visions from God about the pre trib rapture.... because to some degree its true- though I am sure the story has been exaggerated.

Any way.. here is your MOONGLOW award

[Dani H]

The believers in Thessalonika were not exactly looking forward to the Day of the Lord. The Epistle to the Thessalonians is the earliest known New Testament writing, even before the Gospels had been written.

So the Scriptures these believers used to study, were Old Testament Scriptures. Anything else had been relayed to them orally up to that point.

Remember, the order of NT Scriptures is not chronological.

The Thessalonians were worried about the Day of the Lord, because if you look at the OT descriptions, it is indeed a great day of wrath when God executes vengeance upon His enemies.

Paul had to step in and set the record straight, and let them know that for those who are in Christ, it is not a wrathful day.

In fact, the trumpet will sound, Jesus will return and gather those who are His, unto Himself. THEN God's wrath will be poured out and the earth purified and God's enemies dealt with.

For God's enemies, it is a day of wrath. For those in Christ, it is a day of salvation, resurrection, and deliverance, and something we ought to look forward to, because from that day on out, we will forever be with the Lord.

Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

[quiet dove]

Very interesting reading. Please post links to elaborate. I'd like to read up more on how the rapture theory came to be.

Not entirely accurate, and a tad misleading, IMHO

A disciple of Ignatius, Francisco Ribera came up with a theory that would take the attention off the Pope as being the Anti-Christ and put it on some future individual. This was the beginning of the Rapture doctrine.

-Ribera: 1580, wrote a mixture of amil, historicism and futurist. He taught that the seals were opening in the time of Christ but that some of Revelation was still future.

[John146]

The believers in Thessalonika were not exactly looking forward to the Day of the Lord. The Epistle to the Thessalonians is the earliest known New Testament writing, even before the Gospels had been written.

So the Scriptures these believers used to study, were Old Testament Scriptures. Anything else had been relayed to them orally up to that point.

Remember, the order of NT Scriptures is not chronological.

The Thessalonians were worried about the Day of the Lord, because if you look at the OT descriptions, it is indeed a great day of wrath when God executes vengeance upon His enemies.

Paul had to step in and set the record straight, and let them know that for those who are in Christ, it is not a wrathful day.

In fact, the trumpet will sound, Jesus will return and gather those who are His, unto Himself. THEN God's wrath will be poured out and the earth purified and God's enemies dealt with.

For God's enemies, it is a day of wrath. For those in Christ, it is a day of salvation, resurrection, and deliverance, and something we ought to look forward to, because from that day on out, we will forever be with the Lord.

Therefore, comfort one another with these words.

Amen. Good post. That is exactly what is taught in 1 Thes 4:13-5:6.

[Marc B]

Aha! There lies the confusion. Yes the wrath of God at the end times is not against the saints, it's against His enemies. The tribulation the saints will have to endure until Christ's second advent is the wrath of Satan, not God.
God's anger will be directed towards an unrepentant mankind while Satan's wrath will be directed at God's called out ones who endure to the end and do not worship the beast. That's where people get confused and think the pretrib rapture is the joining with the Lord before tribulation and coming back to earth with Him afterwards which the Bible says nothing of the sort.

1 Thess. 4
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18

It says nothing about going to heaven or pretribulation rapture. It describes the second advent. He's not coming back twice. Revelation 20:1-10 goes on to say we will reign with him on earth, not heaven. So it stands to reason that at the second advent we will join Him in the air and begin our millenial reign with Him somewhere on earth. Jerusalem will be the new world capitol where He will reign and the rest of us will no doubt be tasked to rule at various levels and rebuild and teach the remnant of humanity the ways of Godly living.

[Richard H]

Aha! There lies the confusion. Yes the wrath of God at the end times is not against the saints, it's against His enemies. The tribulation the saints will have to endure until Christ's second advent is the wrath of Satan, not God.
God's anger will be directed towards an unrepentant mankind while Satan's wrath will be directed at God's called out ones who endure to the end and do not worship the beast. That's where people get confused and think the pretrib rapture is the joining with the Lord before tribulation and coming back to earth with Him afterwards which the Bible says nothing of the sort.

1 Thess. 4
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18

It says nothing about going to heaven or pretribulation rapture. It describes the second advent. He's not coming back twice. Revelation 20:1-10 goes on to say we will reign with him on earth, not heaven. So it stands to reason that at the second advent we will join Him in the air and begin our millenial reign with Him somewhere on earth. Jerusalem will be the new world capitol where He will reign and the rest of us will no doubt be tasked to rule at various levels and rebuild and teach the remnant of humanity the ways of Godly living.

So...
Presecution = wrath of satan?
Bowls/vials of wrath = God's wrath on the wicked?
Saints here for persecution - not here for bowls/vials?

I love your last sentence, Marc.
'The best explanation of what we will be doing during the millennium I’ve seen.

[Marc B]

That's pretty much it in a nutshell Richard.

[yoSAMite]

Aha! There lies the confusion. Yes the wrath of God at the end times is not against the saints, it's against His enemies. The tribulation the saints will have to endure until Christ's second advent is the wrath of Satan, not God.
God's anger will be directed towards an unrepentant mankind while Satan's wrath will be directed at God's called out ones who endure to the end and do not worship the beast. That's where people get confused and think the pretrib rapture is the joining with the Lord before tribulation and coming back to earth with Him afterwards which the Bible says nothing of the sort.

1 Thess. 4
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18

It says nothing about going to heaven or pretribulation rapture. It describes the second advent. He's not coming back twice. Revelation 20:1-10 goes on to say we will reign with him on earth, not heaven. So it stands to reason that at the second advent we will join Him in the air and begin our millenial reign with Him somewhere on earth. Jerusalem will be the new world capitol where He will reign and the rest of us will no doubt be tasked to rule at various levels and rebuild and teach the remnant of humanity the ways of Godly living.

For those of us who believe in the pre-trib rapture, our argument would be that this verse says nothing of Jesus returning to earth. It says we will meet Jesus in the clouds and be with Him forever. No more no less.

[scourge39]

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17:

15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. (NIV)

Where does it say that only believers will hear the trumpet (or the archangel's voice)?

Where does it mention the instantaneous departure of believers from the earth?

The real clincher is the meaning of the Greek word 'parousia,' erroneously rendered 'coming' in many English translations. Including the ESV, which is most tragic. It was Dispensationalist pre-tribber W.E. Vine who introduced that meaning in his concordance and Strong follows him. Parousia never carried that meaning. Before Vine, every Greek linguist understood it to mean a visible and physical 'appearing' or 'appearance' (it's where the English word 'apparition' comes from). It's a royal term that refers to a king's physical return to his subjects after having been away on a journey. Unfortunately, the pre-trib rapture view (like Dispensationalism itself) is 'folk theology' based on pre-understanding and assumptions imposed on Scripture by readers, not the actual words of Scripture itself. Meaning that those approaching Scripture with the initial assumption that they’ll be ‘raptured’ off the earth likely will “see” it in Scripture, even though there aren’t enough words in the text itself to paint the picture they would like. In fact, I'd say that the entire Dispensational system is based heavily on eisegesis rather than exegesis, and I used to live or die by it. It doesn't require knowledge of Biblical languages to understand, which is why anyone can become an 'expert' in it. In fact, Biblical linguistics obliterates the notion of a pre-trib rapture, which is why so many don't use or trust Biblical languages either. They're comfortable with their current views and scared to be shown anything else that challenges them. Think of it as Linus' security blanket. In a sense, it’s 'inbred'. Those who ascribe to it only consult Dispensational authors recommended by their pastors, like John Walvoord, John MacArthur, John Hagee, et al, thus reinforcing their basic assumptions instead of exposing them to alternate, more viable interpretations. That's why their pastors purposely don't consult any of the scholarly Evangelical/ conservative commentary sets like the New International Commentary or the Word Biblical Commentary. Those sets don't tout the Dispensational 'party line.' Instead, they’d much rather consult books written by people affiliated with Moody Bible Institute, Dallas Theological Seminary, and other Dispensational institutions. None of the current conservative exegetical commentaries on 1 & 2 Thessalonians espouses the pre-trib view. They do, however, dismantle it quite convincingly.

Both of the following books demonstrate an accurate understanding of the word ‘parousia.’

Parousia: The New Testament Doctrine of Our Lord's Second Coming by J. Stuart Russell

The Parousia: A Critical Study Of The Scripture Doctrines Of Christ's Second Coming, His Reign As King, The Resurrection Of The Dead And The General Judgment by Israel P. Warren

If someone were placed on a deserted island with simply an English Bible translation without any previous knowledge of any of the various tribulational/rapture views and told to study the NT for one year by themselves before returning to civilization, I guarantee that they would not even entertain the notion of a pre-trib rapture by the end of their studies. The details imposed on 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 by pre-tribbers simply aren’t explicitly found anywhere in the text, whether Greek, English or otherwise. Several assumptions must be made beforehand and read into the text as it appears in order to make the pre-trib reading work. The lights finally went on when I translated 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 verbatim from the Greek while in seminary. That’s what it took for me to see that much of what I had previously been taught about the passage was not taking Paul’s words at face value, but instead, imposing an interpretation upon them that was more palatable.

In fact, I’m issuing a friendly challenge to pre-tribbers:

Simply take any English translation and outline the actual words of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 as they appear in said translation, without inserting details about it occurring instantaneously, being physically removed from the earth, etc. and then state whether you still come out ‘pre-trib’ and why.

[quiet dove]

In fact, I’m issuing a friendly challenge to pre-tribbers:

Simply take any English translation and outline the actual words of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 as they appear in said translation, without inserting details about it occurring instantaneously, being physically removed from the earth, etc. and then state whether you still come out ‘pre-trib’ and why.

First tell us how the angels sent to the four corners of the earth to gather the elect is the same as the dead and living in Christ being taken, together, to meet Him in the clouds, at the sound of a trumpet. Or how the gathering from the four corners of the earth is the same as being changed in the twinkling of an eye, also, at the sound of a trumpet and including the dead and living in Christ?

[scourge39]

the dead and living in Christ being taken, together, to meet Him in the clouds, at the sound of a trumpet.

Are they being 'taken' and if so, to where? Is that what Paul is describing? He say's we'll 'meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." Why does being with the Lord forever have to mean 'going to heaven.' Paul nowhere mentions heaven

Or how the gathering from the four corners of the earth is the same as being changed in the twinkling of an eye, also, at the sound of a trumpet and including the dead and living in Christ?

This is a red herring, to some extent. We're specifically dealing with Paul's words in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 because it's the primary passage used to defend the pre-trib view. However, let's look at a portion of 1 Corinthians 15:

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. (NIV)

Paul says that we'll be changed in the twinkling of an eye, not removed from earth in the twinkling of an eye. "We," in verse 51 & 52,refers to the living and the dead. Paul is emphasizing the unity of all believers in Christ, both dead and living. Both groups will receive their bodily glorification at the same time. Paul is using this chapter to say, 'Don't worry, both you and your dead loved ones will receive your reward together, so don't think you'll never see them again." In the context of the whole Chapter, Paul is correcting the notion that there would be no final resurrection at the end of the age, a doctrine that was upsetting the Corinthian Church, whose members were worried that they'd never again see their loved ones who died in Christ.

[Richard H]

Pre-Trib:

• Jesus comes and gets us at beginning of 7yr Trib.
• We all go “back” to heaven or just hang around in the air – watching the mayhem.
• 7 years later – Jesus and us come back to win the “final” battle and establish His Kingdom.
• The dead in Christ are raised, when Jesus touches down upon the Earth.
• Jesus establishes His reign for 1000 yrs. Man’s 7th millennium - Sabbath rest from the wiles of the devil.

OR

• We meet Him in the “air” and stay there in the “air”. (1 Thes 4:17)

Purpose of studying prophecy: to understand that which has no bearing on us, as we will not be here.

Vs.



Post-Trib: (7 Trumps)

• At the 7th Trumpet (last Trump), the dead in Christ rise first. (1Thes 4:16)
• We who manage to survive to that point, do not taste death, but are made incorruptible. (1 Thes 4:17)
• We rise to meet the Lord - “on His way” to the Earth.
• The bowls of wrath are poured out. *
• Jesus touches down on the Earth (once) to establish His reign for 1000 yrs. Man’s 7th millennium - Sabbath rest from the wiles of the devil.

Purpose of studying prophecy: to understand that which will bear on us, so we will not be unaware.

* The Feast of Trumpets may only take 21 days or so.
Beginning the Feast of Trumpets:
Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. Lev 23:24

Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath. Lev 23:39
The Feast of Trumpets (normally 21 days) ends on a day known as “the Last Great Day”.
This day is known as “the holy day of the unknown day or hour”, because it is all reckoned by the sighting of the New Moon according to the calendar which God gave the Hebrews.
If the moon is not sighted, the day shall wait until the next time (not next month) the Moon is sighted.

Others here are more knowledgeable of these feasts than I am.
Perhaps they can comment.

Richard