Why I disagree with the pre-tribulation rapture

[Richard H]

To answer your question, Crush:
I don't really have any other info - other than the verses.
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. Rev 20:4
It does not say who sits on the thrones, but it says that judgement was given to them.

In Matthew, Jesus said that His disciples would sit on thrones in judgment.
And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

It seems like a pretty clear connection to me.
Richard

[Diggindeeper]

Hi Richard,

I've got a hunch that you are right about the apostles being resurrected, and they are the ones on the thrones to whom judgment is given in Rev 20:4. But I've really never found any strong evidence for this. I know Jesus made a private promise to the disciples that they would sit as judges over the 12 tribes.... is this why you believe they are involved in the first resurrection? Or do you have more information about this belief?

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

thx....

crush

Yes, Jesus did say the apostles would sit upon 12 thrones, but where did he add "for 1,000 years"?

But... what if the 1,000 years is even now, as we type these posts, already started? There are those precious Christians being tortured and some giving their life for Christ every day, even as we type these words here! In Africa, in China, in so many places. Consider this:

From this site:
National Review Online

Iraq’s Christian Exodus
Targeted by all sides, Christians must choose to leave, or stay and face death.

By Keith Roderick

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NjFlZTIyYjZjYjk1NmZhZTc2MmUxNzJjZmI4ZTI0MWI=
The United Nations Assistance Mission in Iraq reported that attacks on individuals and Christian institutions began to seriously escalate in 2006. Since then, Iraq has seen attack after attack on Christian churches and their leaders. A Catholic and a Syrian Orthodox church in Kirkuk, as well as an Anglican church and the Apostolic Nuncio’s residence in Baghdad, were bombed in January 2006, killing three people. In September, two other churches were attacked, in Kirkuk and Baghdad, killing two persons, one a child. Several Christian clergymen were kidnapped or assassinated. Fr. Boulos Iskandar Behnam was kidnapped and murdered. His head had been sliced from his body and placed upon his lifeless chest. In November, Isoh Majeed Hedaya, the president of the Syriac Independent Unified Movement and an advocate for the formation of an Assyrian-Chaldean-Syriac administrative area in the Nineveh Plains, was murdered on his front doorstep. And in December, a high ranking member of the Presbyterian Church in Mosul was murdered. In May, St. George’s Church Baghdad’s Dora neighborhood was bombed for a second time. A Catholic priest and three deacons were murdered outside of their church after saying Mass in Mosul.

Bombs and blood are not enough for the Islamists. Al Qaeda has begun to demand the jizya (protection money demanded of non-Muslims) from Christian families. Those who refuse to pay must leave or be killed. Muqtada al-Sadr’s Mahdi army issued a letter to Christians in Baghdad ordering Christian women to veil themselves. The letter warns that those who do not face grave consequences. In an ominous closing note the letter promises enforcement through special committees. Iraqi Christians face terror from both Sunni and Shiite groups.

The story of one such family provides insight on the dramatic effect that the campaign of violence is having on Christians in Iraq. On September 24t, 2006, terrorists detonated a small explosive outside the Church of St. Mary in Baghdad. The explosion drew out parishioners from the church when an even larger bomb detonated, causing massive casualties. Sargon Hanna was one of five persons who directed parishioners back into the Church, knowing the first explosion to be a trap, saving lives. When the second, more deadly bomb exploded, it cost Sargon his leg. A month later, his son Ashur, a security guard for the church, was kidnapped. The kidnappers informed Sargon that he had three options: convert to Islam and report on other Christians, pay a ransom of $200,000, or drive a car-bomb for them, acting as a suicide bomber.

Over a period of ten days his son was tortured with electric shocks and boiling water. When their demands were not met, the terrorists decided to execute Ashur. He was shot in the spine, the bullet exiting through his stomach. Believing him to be dead, his executors threw his body into the street. He survived, just barely. He was taken to a hospital in Baghdad where his condition deteriorated. After thwarting an attempt by a man in a police uniform to shoot Ashur as he lay, paralyzed, in his hospital bed, the Hanna family was convinced they had to flee. Like so many, they now are refugees in Damascus, Syria.

Just a couple of days ago, the news was that Christians are still being killed there, and are taking refuge in churches or anywhere they can find temporary shelter, fleeing with only what they can carry like blankets and a few pots to cook in and plates.

See, the problem is, this is not all over the news like politics are. And its going on in several countries. Not only in Iraq. We are too sheltered and just don't know what is going on all over the globe.

[crush]

To answer your question, Crush:
I don't really have any other info - other than the verses.
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. Rev 20:4
It does not say who sits on the thrones, but it says that judgement was given to them.

In Matthew, Jesus said that His disciples would sit on thrones in judgment.
And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

It seems like a pretty clear connection to me.
Richard

Thanks Richard. I don't really disagree with you, but I'd like to find some more info on it, that's all.

thx again

[divaD]

I was wondering about this A-Mill perspective, though. It just seems so clear that there will be a 1000 years.

Hi Richard. Personally speaking, the more I learn of the amil view, the more I realize that that view is not Scripturally possible.

From the way I look at it, all of chapter 19 would have to be fullfilled first, before this thousand years in Rev ch 20 could begin.

Clearly none of ch 19 has come to pass as of yet. Clearly, ch 19 transpires before the thousand years can begin that is spoken of in Rev ch 20.

Perhaps I'm still misunderstanding the amil view. But doesn't that view pretty much ignore the thousand years as being literal?

[Richard H]

Hi Richard. Personally speaking, the more I learn of the amil view, the more I realize that that view is not Scripturally possible.

From the way I look at it, all of chapter 19 would have to be fullfilled first, before this thousand years in Rev ch 20 could begin.

Clearly none of ch 19 has come to pass as of yet. Clearly, ch 19 transpires before the thousand years can begin that is spoken of in Rev ch 20.

Perhaps I'm still misunderstanding the amil view. But doesn't that view pretty much ignore the thousand years as being literal?

We had an "a-miller" here, but I think I scared him away.
I haven't googled it, but I assume the a-mill view is that there is either no millennium or it is somehow metaphorical.

Yer right, the prerequists have not yet taken place.

Those who hold to the veiw that we are somehow IN the millenium, have trouble keeping water in their buckets

I'm still at a loss as to exactly what the a-mill veiw is.
I sort of agree about the gathering of both the good and the bad at the judgement,
but I also believe in the 1000 years. So I'm not a-millennial - or AM I?

Nah!
There's gunna be a 1000 years under the reign of Jesus the King!

Richard

[quiet dove]

Hi Richard. Personally speaking, the more I learn of the amil view, the more I realize that that view is not Scripturally possible.

From the way I look at it, all of chapter 19 would have to be fullfilled first, before this thousand years in Rev ch 20 could begin.

Clearly none of ch 19 has come to pass as of yet. Clearly, ch 19 transpires before the thousand years can begin that is spoken of in Rev ch 20.

Perhaps I'm still misunderstanding the amil view. But doesn't that view pretty much ignore the thousand years as being literal?

I am not amil, but I think "ignore" is a strong word. Amil interprets and understands that verse differently than pre mil. But in all fairness that does not equate to "ignore".

The thousand years is not seen as a definite time frame, it's a literal time, just not a definite time frame of a thousand years.

[quiet dove]

We had an "a-miller" here, but I think I scared him away.
I haven't googled it, but I assume the a-mill view is that there is either no millennium or it is somehow metaphorical.

Yer right, the prerequists have not yet taken place.

Those who hold to the veiw that we are somehow IN the millenium, have trouble keeping water in their buckets

I'm still at a loss as to exactly what the a-mill veiw is.
I sort of agree about the gathering of both the good and the bad at the judgement,
but I also believe in the 1000 years. So I'm not a-millennial - or AM I?

Nah!
There's gunna be a 1000 years under the reign of Jesus the King!

Richard

We have many amillers here and would suggest to you guys that instead of assuming anything, simply ask them what they understand scripture to say and then you are free to agree or disagree, but do it without assuming.

[Richard H]

We have many amillers here and would suggest to you guys that instead of assuming anything, simply ask them what they understand scripture to say and then you are free to agree or disagree, but do it without assuming.

I thought I was asking - realizing that my "assumptions" were based on ignorance.

[Richard H]

Well, I went ahead and googled it - winding up on wikisomething.

'Should have just done my research beforehand.

[quiet dove]

I thought I was asking - realizing that my "assumptions" were based on ignorance.

No, I am not saying that, and was not fussing at you, nothing personal, just with so many views sometimes our innocent comments can come across to the other side in a way we did not intend. So just trying to help everyone along with us all trying to communicate between many different views and thoughts.

I'm just being a mod, it's my job -

[Richard H]

No offence taken, Quiet Dove.
Wikisomething seems to have cleared up my confusion.

Richard

[mclees8]

There is no promise find anywhere in Bible saying that we shall escape from persecutions and tribulations. In John 16:33 tells us that we must suffer tribulation, but we should be cheer because Christ overcame them at calvary. Also, Paul said that we must go through MUCH tribulations into the kingdom - Acts 14:22.

These tribulations will not be finish till immediately after the days of tribulation - Matt. 24:29. Christ shall come right after tribulation.

You have to find prove clear verse anywhere in Bible that, it saying the rapture will be occur before Tribulation. If you know the clear verse, then please prove it to us.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Hi I am new here. I to once was a pre tribulationist but just as you when i tried to find a clear foundation for it, it was not there. The Lord never taught us that we would not have tribulations or that we would be delivered from any. Christians in the early church never had such a promise and they suffered greatly. You will not find anywhere in scripture that speaks of two kinds of Saints, Pre-trib saints and tribulation saints. Nor does it say there will be two raptures.
If we read Rev 15 we sea beleivers standing before God after they suffered at the hands of the antichrist just before Judgement begins. this clearly show that the church was caught away after suffering the antichrist. Hence there can only be a post trib rapture
mike123

[HosannaManna]

what are you talking about?

[Dani H]

Just a couple of days ago, the news was that Christians are still being killed there, and are taking refuge in churches or anywhere they can find temporary shelter, fleeing with only what they can carry like blankets and a few pots to cook in and plates.

See, the problem is, this is not all over the news like politics are. And its going on in several countries. Not only in Iraq. We are too sheltered and just don't know what is going on all over the globe.

According to Voice of the Martyrs, there have been more Christians martyred in the past 100 years than in all the years combined prior to, since the early Church. And it's everywhere. Islamic nations particularly, such as Indonesia and others, as well as many nations in Africa. There are other nations that are famous for persecuting believers, such as China as well. This is also why I have no issue believing that there is tribulation everywhere, and why I expect Jesus to return any day now.

This is why I don't understand why people are waiting for a tribulation, that is obviously already here, and has been for some time. People, driven by antichrist and fueled by satan himself, are murdering our brothers and sisters all over the globe. And when they're not outright murdering them, they're being forced to submit to unbelievable living conditions without having a way out, with their lives on the line, every day. I really think many of us are waiting for something that is already happening, and we're just not seeing it.

[quiet dove]

There is no doubt that believers are persecuted all over the world and have been through out history. My question is though, as far as the GT goes as related to end times, how does that prove anything when the GT is God's wrath? Don't get me wrong, persecution is most certainly tribulation, but persecution is not God's wrath.

Pre trib does not teach believers will not suffer tribulation, it teaches they will not suffer God's wrath. And since Christ opens that first seal and is the only One worthy, I am going to have to stick with the entire time frame being God's wrath, from the first seal to the seventh.

His wrath being something we do not have to fear, in this life or the next. Any man or woman alive prior to the GT at the time of a pre trib rapture, has the offer of mercy and of not being here, if they are here, it will be due to their rejection of Christ. Just like every man and woman who ever lived had the offer of mercy, through Christ, of not suffering eternal punishment.

And as always, our goal should be spreading the Gospel and praying for the lost in hopes they will suffer neither the GT or eternal judgment.