The One Timeline

[legoman]

Hi everyone,

This is really an offshoot from the predestination thread (I know, yay another predestination/free will thread - feel free to ignore this if you have no interest in these topics). I posted this in the other predestination thread but I think it got lost in the sea of posts over there.

My intent here is to come at it from a slightly different angle, and I am curious what other people think and believe on this. For me it helps to crystalize my views on predestination and choice - and I believe it can be all shown in scripture.

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I am proposing, because of God's foreknowledge, there is only one timeline.

What is a timeline? Well if you imagine all of the choices that people have made throughout history up till now, we would have a single timeline. This timeline is fixed - it is in the past and has already happened.

Now going forward into the future, there are potentially infinite possible timelines, based on all the possible choices everyone could make in the future. But there is only one fixed timeline in the future - this is the timeline of the choices that people will actually make.

This one timeline can be viewed as equivalent to God's foreknowledge. God can look at any point on the timeline (past or future), and see exactly what people chose to do. This is essentially saying that the future is fixed and unchangable, or already written, in the same way that the past is fixed and unchangable, and already written.

Isaiah 46:10 is talking about this timeline:

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

God declared long ago, "from ancient times", the things that are not yet done. That is, he declared what will happen in the future. And he will bring it to pass.

This is the one timeline. So, does everyone agree that there is one timeline as described here? There is only one past and one future? If you don't agree, stop reading now and add a post explaining why.

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Ok, if you made it this far, then we all agree there is only one timeline.

Now this leads to some interesting questions:

1. Who created the timeline? Did man "create" the timeline by the actions of his own free will, and then God fit it to his plan? Or did God just declare the timeline (as in Isaiah 46:10), and it came to be that way?

2. Are the participants in the one timeline (us humans) in any way being forced to make the choices that occur in the one timeline? Remember that the whole timeline (including the future portion) already exists, because God has that knowledge.

3. If there is only one timeline, doesn't that mean everything is predestined?

Thanks in advance for your answers - I appreciate it.

Legoman

[Emanate]

Hi everyone,

This is really an offshoot from the predestination thread (I know, yay another predestination/free will thread - feel free to ignore this if you have no interest in these topics). I posted this in the other predestination thread but I think it got lost in the sea of posts over there.

My intent here is to come at it from a slightly different angle, and I am curious what other people think and believe on this. For me it helps to crystalize my views on predestination and choice - and I believe it can be all shown in scripture.

--------

I am proposing, because of God's foreknowledge, there is only one timeline.

What is a timeline? Well if you imagine all of the choices that people have made throughout history up till now, we would have a single timeline. This timeline is fixed - it is in the past and has already happened.

Now going forward into the future, there are potentially infinite possible timelines, based on all the possible choices everyone could make in the future. But there is only one fixed timeline in the future - this is the timeline of the choices that people will actually make.

This one timeline can be viewed as equivalent to God's foreknowledge. God can look at any point on the timeline (past or future), and see exactly what people chose to do. This is essentially saying that the future is fixed and unchangable, or already written, in the same way that the past is fixed and unchangable, and already written.

Isaiah 46:10 is talking about this timeline:

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

God declared long ago, "from ancient times", the things that are not yet done. That is, he declared what will happen in the future. And he will bring it to pass.

This is the one timeline. So, does everyone agree that there is one timeline as described here? There is only one past and one future? If you don't agree, stop reading now and add a post explaining why.

--------

Ok, if you made it this far, then we all agree there is only one timeline.

Now this leads to some interesting questions:

1. Who created the timeline? Did man "create" the timeline by the actions of his own free will, and then God fit it to his plan? Or did God just declare the timeline (as in Isaiah 46:10), and it came to be that way?

2. Are the participants in the one timeline (us humans) in any way being forced to make the choices that occur in the one timeline? Remember that the whole timeline (including the future portion) already exists, because God has that knowledge.

3. If there is only one timeline, doesn't that mean everything is predestined?

Thanks in advance for your answers - I appreciate it.

Legoman

This is great, if God is truly bound by time.

[legoman]

This is great, if God is truly bound by time.

Well, obviously God is not bound by time, right? He is outside of time. Perhaps I should have stated that at the top.

But what is wrong with the one timeline theory, if God is not bound by time?

[Emanate]

Well, obviously God is not bound by time, right? He is outside of time. Perhaps I should have stated that at the top.

But what is wrong with the one timeline theory, if God is not bound by time?

My view is that Scripture does not paint a time "line." It is more of a circle. Times and Seasons which move from the begininning to the end to the begininning.

[BrckBrln]

I completely agree legoman. All events are fixed in time, it seems.

[legoman]

I completely agree legoman. All events are fixed in time, it seems.

Hi BrckBrln,

I figured you would agree To me it seems obvious. If God has perfect foreknowledge of the choices we make, then there can only be one path forward.

BrckBrln, how would you answer the secondary questions I posed? This is what I would suggest:

1. God created the timeline. If he didn't it is a paradox. It implies he created us, with his foreknowledge, but not knowing what we would do (the timeline)

2. No one is forced to make the choices that bring the timeline to pass. All the participants do it willingly.

3. A single timeline is essentally the definition of predestination.


It seems to prove this, all we need to know is:

1. God is sovereign (100's of verses in the bible state this, Gen 15:2, 15:8, etc)

2. God is omniscient, with perfect foreknowledge (God knows the beginning and the end, God is the alpha and the omega, Rev 1:8, Rev 21:6, Rev 22:13, and many other places speak of God's foreknowledge)

3. Isaiah 46:10 says sums it up clearly: God declared the timeline and brings it to pass.

Cheers,
Legoman

[BrckBrln]

Hi BrckBrln,

I figured you would agree To me it seems obvious. If God has perfect foreknowledge of the choices we make, then there can only be one path forward.

BrckBrln, how would you answer the secondary questions I posed? This is what I would suggest:

1. God created the timeline. If he didn't it is a paradox. It implies he created us, with his foreknowledge, but not knowing what we would do (the timeline)

2. No one is forced to make the choices that bring the timeline to pass. All the participants do it willingly.

3. A single timeline is essentally the definition of predestination.


It seems to prove this, all we need to know is:

1. God is sovereign (100's of verses in the bible state this, Gen 15:2, 15:8, etc)

2. God is omniscient, with perfect foreknowledge (God knows the beginning and the end, God is the alpha and the omega, Rev 1:8, Rev 21:6, Rev 22:13, and many other places speak of God's foreknowledge)

3. Isaiah 46:10 says sums it up clearly: God declared the timeline and brings it to pass.

Cheers,
Legoman

I just can't agree more, my friend. To me, you have a great understanding of the issue. Proverbs 16 has some great verses about the sovereignty of God by the way.

[crush]

Very thoughtful post and enjoyable read legoman. I don't completely agree however.

It seems as if you believe that God takes some kind of "future" record of the choices that we "independently" make and this is his timeline.

But it seems like more to me that God actively "creates" this timeline himself, despite us and our "choices".

Even the Isaiah verse you quote would seem to say this.

11 ...... yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it

where would our choices be in this? God speaks it, brings it to pass, purposes it and does it....

[markedward]

I am proposing, because of God's foreknowledge, there is only one timeline.

Just want to check something:

You know that knowing something in advance (foreknowledge) is not the same thing as making something happen before it happens (predestination), correct?

God knowing how the "timeline" will play out, or Him making specific events come to fulfillment is not necessarily the same thing as everything being predestined.

[legoman]

Very thoughtful post and enjoyable read legoman. I don't completely agree however.

It seems as if you believe that God takes some kind of "future" record of the choices that we "independently" make and this is his timeline.

But it seems like more to me that God actively "creates" this timeline himself, despite us and our "choices".

Even the Isaiah verse you quote would seem to say this.

11 ...... yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it

where would our choices be in this? God speaks it, brings it to pass, purposes it and does it....

Hi crush,

Perhaps I gave the wrong impression... I was just trying to present both sides, but I believe exactly as you stated.

I concur, it seems very likely that God created the timeline and we cannot make a choice that would be independent of that timeline or what God foreknew. That's what I mean when I say we still make choices. We make choices everyday, but they are choices that conform to exactly what God knew and exactly what the timeline shows.

If we look into the scriptures, I believe they confirm this. Especially verse 11 as you pointed out.

So I think perhaps we are in complete agreement (please correct me if I am wrong)

Cheers,
Legoman

[legoman]

Just want to check something:

You know that knowing something in advance (foreknowledge) is not the same thing as making something happen before it happens (predestination), correct?

God knowing how the "timeline" will play out, or Him making specific events come to fulfillment is not necessarily the same thing as everything being predestined.

Hi markedward,

Well, this is what I am trying to show:

If God has perfect foreknowledge, then there must be one and only one timeline that represents all choices through-out time. Do you disagree? If you do disagree, please explain.

Now I realize that foreknowledge is not exactly the same as predestination, but I am trying to make the case that it is effectively the same.

If there is only one timeline, we can then say that we are effectively predestined. We can do nothing different that what the timeline shows. That sounds like predestination to me. In fact if one could somehow gain access to the knowledge of this timeline, they could find out what their destiny is.

Essentially: God's perfect foreknowledge = One Timeline = Predestination

The really cool thing about this is there are all sorts of examples in the bible that show this.

Cheers,
Legoman

[crush]

Hi crush,

Perhaps I gave the wrong impression... I was just trying to present both sides, but I believe exactly as you stated.

I concur, it seems very likely that God created the timeline and we cannot make a choice that would be independent of that timeline or what God foreknew. That's what I mean when I say we still make choices. We make choices everyday, but they are choices that conform to exactly what God knew and exactly what the timeline shows.

If we look into the scriptures, I believe they confirm this. Especially verse 11 as you pointed out.

So I think perhaps we are in complete agreement (please correct me if I am wrong)

Cheers,
Legoman

I think we both agree that God has already watched the movie of the history of the Universe, from beginning to end, I think we disagree on how the movie is made though.

I think that this is a good scripture to analyze to determine your POV on whether the movie is made by "man's choice" or "God's choice"

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So what's the answer to the question? What must we do?

If you answer "believe in Jesus" - you think it's "man's choice"

If you answer correctly "us believing in Jesus is the work of God (not our work at all)" - you think it's "God's choice"

so really the answer to "What shall we do?" is nothing LOL

[legoman]

I think we both agree that God has already watched the movie of the history of the Universe, from beginning to end, I think we disagree on how the movie is made though.

I think that this is a good scripture to analyze to determine your POV on whether the movie is made by "man's choice" or "God's choice"

Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

So what's the answer to the question? What must we do?

If you answer "believe in Jesus" - you think it's "man's choice"

If you answer correctly "us believing in Jesus is the work of God (not our work at all)" - you think it's "God's choice"

so really the answer to "What shall we do?" is nothing LOL

Your response is baffling me a bit, because I still think we are in agreement. Makes me wonder if I did not express myself clearly, or if you didn't completely read what I said...

Crush, you are saying God created the timeline right? So am I! It is all part of his plan. I'm not quite sure how you got the idea that I think man creates the timeline...

No argument from me on John 6.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

We can't choose Christ until God draws (drags) us to him. And when God does drag us, we will choose him. We can do nothing else at that point. Perhaps that is where you are confusing my position in the word "choice". When God reveals himself to someone, that person willingly chooses God - not because of that person's "free will" (its not really free will), but because God has opened their eyes.

And this will happen according to God's timeline (his plan).

Cheers,
Legoman

[crush]

We can't choose Christ until God draws (drags) us to him. And when God does drag us, we will choose him. We can do nothing else at that point. Perhaps that is where you are confusing my position in the word "choice". When God reveals himself to someone, that person willingly chooses God - not because of that person's "free will" (its not really free will), but because God has opened their eyes.

Ok, sorry 'bout that legoman. What you say here makes a lot of sense And I agree 100%

I got the impression from your OP that God was simply looking at the "timeline" and basing his "choices" of persons, on persons that "choose" him

Originally Posted by legoman
God can look at any point on the timeline (past or future), and see exactly what people chose to do

IDK, it's a very deep subject and strong arguments can be made for each POV. I think it's best to err on the safe side....that God has complete control over everything

[RogerW]

Hi Legoman,

Great thread! I like to define redemptive history as His..story! In other words in eternity past God determined to have a people for Himself. So He created all things with all of redemptive history in mind. To bring about what He has determined in eternity past, He MUST govern His creation with the purpose of bringing into His eternal Kingdom those He determined to redeem. Everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen are all means to His determined end. What appears from human perspective as freely making choices, must be at the very least guided by His providence, or His determined will might not come to pass. So, I believe, like you, that God didn't simply create all things, and then stand back to see what man in his free will would do. If He had we would have long ago destroyed His glorious creation. No, God is actively orchastrating all things that come to pass to accomplish His redemptive plan which was determined in heaven before the world began.

Many Blessings,
RW