The One Timeline

[RogerW]

I look forward to it

Yes, eternity, as it pertains to God, would not be on a timeline.

It really wouldn't be possible for an "eternity" to exist before the creation event. Or, to put it another way, God couldn't exist "forever", on a timeline, before the creation event, otherwise we'd still be waiting for "forever" to end so that he could create the world. And that wouldn't happen LOL.

Greetings Crush,

Would you agree that God lives outside of time? I believe that eternal life begins for us when we are born again of the Spirit. Our flesh lives in time, but our eternal spirit already resides with Christ in eternity. This is why Christ says to Martha, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

Many Blessings,
RW

[Ethnikos]

...I think we need to be careful to make a distinction between God's foreknowledge and His providence...

I think this sounds very reasonable (your whole post, that I quote a small part of, to save server space). I would not argue against any of it. I would like to add a comment containing my personal opinion. In order for God to not be the originator of evil, I would say that certain contingencies were considered before creation. God would have been wise enough to know that there was a possibility that things could go wrong and planned on how to deal with it. I have to reject the idea that God knew ahead of time that it would definitely go bad, and I would violently reject the idea that God planned it to go bad.
To change subjects, considering the nature of time; It is something that exists inside the universe, or in other terms, time is a main component of creation. Before creation God and any number of non-material entities would have existed in, for the lack of any frame of reference to us mortals, eternity. Creation existed in eternity only as a concept. My question to the reader is; did God make creation from standing outside of it, or did God, once there was space (dimension), step into that space and continue with creation, from inside of it? Genesis says He planted the Garden with His own hand, so I go with the inside creation choice.
Going back-wards though all this, creation came about and existed while God was in a universe ruled by time. Once He was faced with a worse case scenario, God went ahead to put into action what was planned, ahead of time, to deal with it.

[RogerW]

I think this sounds very reasonable (your whole post, that I quote a small part of, to save server space). I would not argue against any of it. I would like to add a comment containing my personal opinion. In order for God to not be the originator of evil, I would say that certain contingencies were considered before creation. God would have been wise enough to know that there was a possibility that things could go wrong and planned on how to deal with it. I have to reject the idea that God knew ahead of time that it would definitely go bad, and I would violently reject the idea that God planned it to go bad.

To change subjects, considering the nature of time; It is something that exists inside the universe, or in other terms, time is a main component of creation. Before creation God and any number of non-material entities would have existed in, for the lack of any frame of reference to us mortals, eternity. Creation existed in eternity only as a concept. My question to the reader is; did God make creation from standing outside of it, or did God, once there was space (dimension), step into that space and continue with creation, from inside of it? Genesis says He planted the Garden with His own hand, so I go with the inside creation choice.
Going back-wards though all this, creation came about and existed while God was in a universe ruled by time. Once He was faced with a worse case scenario, God went ahead to put into action what was planned, ahead of time, to deal with it.

Greetings Ethnikos,

This is interesting. My first impulse is to ask why, if God did not know man would fall, is Christ the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world? Why is it necessary to provide an answer for sin unless God knew sin would exist?

"God would have been wise enough to know that there was a possibility that things could go wrong and planned on how to deal with it."

"Once He was faced with a worse case scenario, God went ahead to put into action what was planned, ahead of time, to deal with it."

This is a hard concept for me to accept. It implies that God does not have absolute knowledge of all things that happen in time, even before time exists. This implies that God has a plan B in case plan A fails. Does not God always carry out His will, whatsoever He desires? Is the will of God ever thwarted by sin? God has only one redemptive plan, and all of history, the time line exists to bring about what God has ordained in eternity.

I believe the only thing that existed before creation was darkness and God. Time is part of creation, it did not exist until God spoke it into being. Time began when He divided the light from darkness creating evening and morning, the first day; the beginning of time. Therefore I believe that God exists outside of time, and He does not have to step into time to create all things.

Since God spoke the world into existence, why would it be necessary for God to enter into time to plant a garden? The Scripture tells us God planted a garden, but it does not say "with his own hand." I believe the only time that God entered into time was when He became a flesh and blood man just like us.

Adam and Eve hear the voice of God walking in the garden, but there is no mention of seeing Him. I think this is because God, the Father never enters into time, but exists in eternity. We cannot comprehend what it is to exist in eternity, because we exist in time, so eternity is not something we can fully or perhaps even begin to understand. When God has finished using time to bring about His redemptive purpose, then time will no longer exist, and eternity will be clearly understood by all who live in it.

Many Blessings,
RW

[Ethnikos]

It implies that God does not have absolute knowledge of all things that happen in time, even before time exists... a
...the time line exists to bring about what God has ordained in eternity. b
...I believe that God exists outside of time, and He does not have to step into time to create all things. c
...why would it be necessary for God to enter into time to plant a garden?d
...only time that God entered into time was when He became a flesh and blood man just like us. e
...there is no mention of seeing Him. I think this is because God, the Father never enters into time, but exists in eternity. f
...then time will no longer exist... g

It seems to be that there are two points of concept in direct opposition. God knows every minute detail of everything that will happen, ahead of time versus God is good and only creates good things. a
This idea of a time line existing in order to bring forward something ordained before time existed goes to my previous post and my saying that if this was true, God created all evil and suffering in the world. b
God does not have to do anything. God chose to do something to share what was possible to experience, with others. Those others, he did not want to share with vicariously, but directly with as partners. c
It would not it be necessary for God to enter into time to plant a garden. He wanted to, for His own enjoyment. d
There are plenty of references to God that are of an anthropomorphic nature. e Let's say there was a ladder going from heaven and earth and angels were using it to ascend and descend. Does it actually go somewhere? f
So gathering together in the new world, on new moons never really happens, since there is no time? g

[RogerW]

This idea of a time line existing in order to bring forward something ordained before time existed goes to my previous post and my saying that if this was true, God created all evil and suffering in the world.

Hi Ethnikos,

It's not that God created all evil and suffering, but that He permits evil and suffering in the world to exist for His purposes. Consider for instance how God used Joseph and his brothers to "save much people alive" (Gen 50:20). God did not force, or even ordain Joseph's brothers to sell him into slavery, but God certainly used what they intended for evil to bring about redemption for the Jews.

God does not have to do anything. God chose to do something to share what was possible to experience, with others. Those others, he did not want to share with vicariously, but directly with as partners.

Well we do become heirs, joint-heirs with Christ. We receive all of His.

It would not it be necessary for God to enter into time to plant a garden. He wanted to, for His own enjoyment.

This is possible, and may be true, but I feel safe when I stick with what the Bible actually says, rather than making assumptions from my point of view.

There are plenty of references to God that are of an anthropomorphic nature.

Yes there are, and perhaps that is how we should view "planted".

Let's say there was a ladder going from heaven and earth and angels were using it to ascend and descend. Does it actually go somewhere?
So gathering together in the new world, on new moons never really happens, since there is no time?

I'm not sure of the point you're making here.

Blessings,
RW

[Ethnikos]

I'm not sure of the point you're making here.

I mean there are messengers going back and forth between God and the inhabitants of earth. Where do they go? If God exists in eternity outside of this existence, all alone, the angels never get to where He is. So, they really would be going nowhere and if God knew everything ahead of time, why would he need all these creatures to keep Him informed?

[RogerW]

I mean there are messengers going back and forth between God and the inhabitants of earth. Where do they go? If God exists in eternity outside of this existence, all alone, the angels never get to where He is. So, they really would be going nowhere and if God knew everything ahead of time, why would he need all these creatures to keep Him informed?

Well....I suppose it could be argued that spirit beings, i.e. Satan are not bound in eternity. Consider Job. God's dwelling place is heaven, but Satan was before God, and going to and fro in the earth (Job 1:7). So the angels of God would also be going back and forth between heaven and earth. As far as angels keeping Him informed, where do you find this in Scripture? We often confuse which of God's messengers are spirit beings (angels) and which are human messengers. There is one verse that tells us that God sends ministering spirits for them who will be heirs of salvation (Heb 1:14). But I just don't find where God is not fully aware and in complete control of everything He sends His angels of heaven to do in the earth. Perhaps I have over looked something, it wouldn't be the first time.

Many Blessings,
RW

[legoman]

Greetings Legoman,

I think we need to be careful to make a distinction between God's foreknowledge and His providence.

I don't think Scripture defines God's foreknowledge as Him knowing about future events in advance. Not that He does not know them, but I believe this is attributed not to foreknowledge, but rather to His omniscience. Nothing is hidden from His sight and He is not "presently learning" nor limited in His knowing (Ps 139). Foreknowledge is not used in terms of knowing or bringing about future events, times or actions (providence).

In His foreknowledge God knows His own. We are foreknown by His electing love in predestinating those He has sovereignly chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4-6; 1 Pe 1:1-2). Foreknowledge is used in regards to God's electing love of His own, but not in a sense of knowing ahead of time of events and actions. Of course those who are not foreknown of God the Lord says, "depart from me, I've never known you."

Scripture also speaks of foreknowing of Christ (1Pe 1:20). There was intimacy within the Trinity before anything that was made was made. The promise for us is that He foreknew us before the world existed. Therefore what He established in eternity, He brings about in time; e.g. our salvation through Christ.

In His providence God according to His own will keeps all creatures in being, involves Himself in all events, and directs all things to there appointed end. Providence teaches Christians that they are never in the grip of blind fortune, chance, luck or fate. All that happens to them is divinely planned, and each event comes as a new summons to trust, obey, and rejoice, knowing that all is for our spiritual and eternal good (Ro 8:28).

All for His glory!

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi Roger,

I think I get what you are saying here...

God's foreknowledge doesn't make things happen, but his providence does. They are closely integrated though, in that because he knows what he is going to do (he has a plan), he therefore has perfect foreknowledge, as his plan won't fail.

I think that is what you are saying. Took me a few readings to get that... with regard to my OP, I think that is what I was trying to say as well, in order to hopefully show people that God's foreknowledge implies he has a plan that he will execute. Its kind of a chicken and egg thing - did the foreknowledge come and God made his plan, or did God make his plan, which obviously gave him the foreknowledge. I believe it is the latter. My intent was to show people that this must be true, assuming God has perfect foreknowledge. Perfect foreknowledge implies a perfect plan.

As you say there is no luck, chance, blind fortune, etc. Even the flip of a coin is not random. There are no random events. Interesting, as some scientists say that they cannot find a truly random event in the universe. Everything has a cause.

Legoman

[Dani H]

Instead of "one timeline" I think the more correct version is there is only Plan A. However long it takes.

[legoman]

I recently responded to another thread "Lucifer" that I hope will help to clarify my position of double predestination. The problem, as I see it, for double predestination is that it makes God the cause of man's sin. I don't for a moment believe that is biblical.

...

While I believe Scripture affirms the doctrine of predestination unto eternal life, I do not believe that Scripture affirms the doctrine of double predestination to eternal death.

Hope this is clear, and helps you.

Hi Roger,

Regarding the problem of whether God "caused" sin or not... no, God does not cause us to sin, directly. Satan is the one who goes out into the world, tempting and testing, and causing all to sin.

But is God "off the hook"? No, I don't think so, because he is the one that created Satan. God causes us to sin, indirectly, through Satan. Remember Satan can do nothing unless God allows it (Job 2:6). But does that mean God sinned because he created Satan? No. Can we "blame" God for sin? No. First of all, blame assumes he did something wrong. Second of all, we are the ones who choose to sin. Even though Satan tempts us, and Satan can do nothing unless God allows, it is us who responds to that temptation and choose to sin. (Not a free will choice - a caused choice.)

As I see it God setup his perfect plan (the timeline). Now in this plan, he needed adversity, evil, so that we could learn good. Because of this he created Satan.

Here is an interesting verse. Ecclesiastes 1:13

(KJV) Ecc 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

Here we see that God has given a "sore travail" to the us. If you look at the concordant literal version, it gives a bit more insight:

(CLV) ECC 1:13 It is an experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Wow. That is something isn't it? God is giving us an experience of evil, so we will be humbled by it! He wants us to learn what is Good, and what is humility. For that we have to know evil first.

Now, back to the timeline and God's plan. Since everything is going according to the timeline, that would include Satan's actions and all of the evil things that happen in this world.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Thus God needed to introduce evil into the world. He did this via Satan. God creates evil - but there is a reason for it.

Colossians 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


This should be obvious - God created all.

Legoman

[crush]

Greetings Crush,

Would you agree that God lives outside of time? I believe that eternal life begins for us when we are born again of the Spirit. Our flesh lives in time, but our eternal spirit already resides with Christ in eternity. This is why Christ says to Martha, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

Many Blessings,
RW

Hi Roger, yes I agree that God lives outside of time, and has interaction with the spirits (and hearts?) of believers, I think that is what this Isaiah passage is talking about.

sa 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones

I don't think that the "eternity" that God inhabits will be available for anyone, in heaven or earth, flesh or spirit, to inhabit until Rev 21:1 begins...IDK, you could be correct on this, and our "spirits" do begin to dwell with God in this timeless place at the point of salvation, and forever do *shrugs* (way over my head lol)

I think that earth and heaven are synced up as far as having historical and future references, or the passage of time. But I think that the behavior of time must be different in heaven than here on earth. That is to say, you can get a lot more done in a "heavenly" hour, than you can get done in an "earthly" hour *groans* (maybe that's why the "souls" in Rev 6:10 are crying about "how long" it's taking to get to their revenge LOL)

So as also God exists outside of the Earthly confines of time, he also exists outside the Heavenly confines - while also being able to interact with both....I guess LOL

[legoman]

Instead of "one timeline" I think the more correct version is there is only Plan A. However long it takes.

Yes, agreed.

Unfortunately some people don't believe God has one unchanging plan, and is forever changing his plan to accommodate our "free will", thus leading to a string of plan B's.

So my intent was to show because of God's perfect foreknowledge, there is only timeline - therefore God only has one plan.

Cheers,
Legoman

[legoman]

It seems to be that there are two points of concept in direct opposition. God knows every minute detail of everything that will happen, ahead of time versus God is good and only creates good things. a
This idea of a time line existing in order to bring forward something ordained before time existed goes to my previous post and my saying that if this was true, God created all evil and suffering in the world. b
God does not have to do anything. God chose to do something to share what was possible to experience, with others. Those others, he did not want to share with vicariously, but directly with as partners. c
It would not it be necessary for God to enter into time to plant a garden. He wanted to, for His own enjoyment. d
There are plenty of references to God that are of an anthropomorphic nature. e Let's say there was a ladder going from heaven and earth and angels were using it to ascend and descend. Does it actually go somewhere? f
So gathering together in the new world, on new moons never really happens, since there is no time? g

Hi Ethnikos,

It seems you don't believe God has true foreknowledge, and only had Jesus as a contigency plan, and definitely didn't plan for anything bad to happen.

The scriptures show us otherwise. Jesus was the lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world. God is in all, creates all, and is in complete control.

Colossians 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Romans 11
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

2 Cor 5
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Theses verses are all saying the same thing. ALL things are of God. That means everything. God is in complete control, and all things are going according to plan.

God does creates evil.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God uses evil to give us a sore travail, or an "experience of evil":

Ecc 1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore (evil) travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

Interesting note here: the word "sore" in the above verse is the hebrew word ra, which means evil or bad. This is the same word in Isaiah 45:7 - "God created evil (ra)", and the same word in Gen 2:9 - "Tree of Knowledge of good and evil (ra)".

God wants us to know what is goodness, and to do that, we have to know what evil is. One cannot know what good is, unless you have something bad to compare it to.

Legoman

[legoman]

Now given we know God has perfect foreknowledge of everything, this leads to there being only one timeline, and one perfect plan.

But which came first, the foreknowledge or the plan? It only makes sense that the plan came first. God's will is supreme (sovereign), our will is weak.

Lets look at Peter's denial. Matthew 26:

33 Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended.
34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
35 Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.

Peter seems very sure he will never deny christ. But we all know what happens:

70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.
...
72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.
...
74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew. 75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.


So, where was Peter's free will? The answer: his will was never free. Not in this scenario and not ever. Just like our will.

He was only acting as the timeline (God's plan) said he would. God had already planned for this to happen. Now was it forced? No. Peter simply was reacting to his own fear/shame/emotions. He did not want to admit what was being asked of him, so he chose of his own will to deny it.

This story illustrates exactly how weak willed man is. Our will is nothing compared to God's plan.

Cheers,
Legoman

[Ethnikos]

Hi Ethnikos,

It seems you don't believe God has true foreknowledge, and only had Jesus as a contigency plan, and definitely didn't plan for anything bad to happen.

Notice your wording: "...you don't believe..." "... true foreknowledge..." "...God...only had..." "...definitely didn't plan..."
Looks like you are trying to characterize my post as negative in nature.

Let me re-quote my self to be a little more possitive: "...God is good and only creates good things..." "...God chose to...share...experience..directly with as partners." "...for God to enter into time...for His own enjoyment." "...references to God that are of an anthropomorphic nature." "...there was a ladder going from heaven and earth and angels were using it to ascend and descend." "...gathering together in the new world, on new moons..."

God does creates evil.
Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
God uses evil to give us a sore travail, or an "experience of evil":

This verse is talking about bad things happening, like the flood, that were necessary, but it is not talking about moral evil.