God's sovereignty

[RogerW]

So, then, it appears that we are in absolute agreement.

Greetings Welder,

I apologize for my tardy response. Other responsibilites have pulled me away from the these discussions I love. I am encouraged that we find areas of agreement.

INDEED. Anything done apart from the spirit (even good works) is of the flesh, or the carnal man. That is why it is imperative that we continually walk in the spirit:

Rom. 8:8 So, then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God

Rom. 12:2 And do not be conformed to this worls, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God

Rom. 8:6,7 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be

I guess the only thing I would have trouble with is the term natural man. The natural man is what we are before coming to Christ....one who purposely walks in the flesh, and sets his mind on such things:

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him

Do you think it's possible to be a natural man and an authentic Christian? I know that there are carnal Christians, because the apostle Paul addresses that in 1 Cor., and I also know that we struggle with the flesh, but is struggling with the flesh a sign that we are still natural men, as opposed to spiritual men?

I always thought that the natural man was one who was completely without Christ, and devoid of all spirituality. Either way, we can set our minds on the things of the flesh, or on the things of the spirit....what we set our minds on will determine what we are slaves to.

I agree to be spiritually minded it is imperative that we are constantly being transformed by the Word of God through the power of His Spirit. I also agree that Christians must struggle daily against the flesh that so easily entices us to sin as we once did without the Spirit. It is indeed a spiritual war going on within.

I too believe that the natural man is one completely without Christ. I don't believe it is possible for the natural man to set his/her mind on the things of the Spirit of God, for he/she is without the Spirit. 1Co 2:14 not only tells us that the things of the Spirit of God are foolishness to the natural man, but also that he cannot know the things of the Spirit, for these things are spiritually discerned. So how can the natural man set his mind on things of the Spirit without the Holy Spirit guiding him?

1Co 2:14... neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Natural man cannot know the things of God without the Spirit of God teaching him.

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Once we have been born again by the Spirit of God, we struggle against the flesh, which desires to follow the natural things, or the spirit of this world, but that struggle is what tells us that we are no longer natural man. For natural man has no struggle against the Spirit. How could he have since he does not have the Spirit of God?

It is free only insofar as we choose whom we will serve....to whom we are slaves, how we make our choices, and where we set our minds are determined by that initial choice, which we freely make. We can choose to be in bondage to sin, or to righteousness.

When we are in bondage to Satan, sin and death who will we freely choose to serve? Can we freely choose to make ourselves free from the bondage Satan holds us in?

Also note that we do not need Satan's direction to walk in the flesh....we can do this very well on our own, as that is our nature, but we sure need God's direction to walk in the Spirit.

It's not so much that we need Satan's direction to walk in the flesh, it's that we will always choose Satan's direction because we are in the flesh, and not of the Spirit. Who was the influence in the garden that caused our first parents to disobey God? How can we walk in the Spirit when we are in bondage to the flesh (Satan, sin and death)?

Yes.....and an ultimatum involves some sort of choice, does it not? One can choose to be foolish, or to be sensible.

Yes it does. When we are without the Spirit we will always choose to be foolish, always choose the way of the flesh. When we are in bondage to Satan, will he, who is stronger than we, allow us to freely choose to serve the Lord? He will not unless someone stronger than he first binds him, and pulls of free from his hold on us.

So, you don't think that this Scripture applies to us today?

When we are in bondage to Satan, we freely choose to remain his slaves and bound to sin and death, because we can do no other while spiritually dead. When we are made free in Christ we freely choose to serve Him, because our hearts have been made new, and we can do none other. Either way we freely choose, but we are only free to choose that which we are in subjection to...either to Satan, sin and death in unbelief, or Christ, freedom and eternal life in faith.

Well, of course not, because Christ was not in the picture yet.

Christ is the only means of salvation. Old Testament saints were saved by grace through faith in the same way we are today. They looking for Messiah to come to fulfill His promise, we looking back at His finished work at the cross. Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

But let's run with this concept....Israel was God's chosen people. Israel did not choose God, but God chose Israel, based on the promise He made to Abraham. God was completely sovereign over Israel, but even so, their fate as a nation relied heavily on the choices that they made concerning their obedience to God.

When looking at the seed of Abraham, it's important to make a distinction between his natural seed of the flesh, and his Spiritual Seed; Christ. God chose the nation to bring about His eternal promise, but from the very beginning there was never more than a remnant chosen by grace, from the nation, who would receive eternal life in Christ.

The choice to obey and receive promises came with stipulations...do this and live, disobey and die. The nation as a whole (except the remnant) remain in unbelief, even after telling Joshua they too chose to serve the LORD. Was it ever God's promise to the whole nation that they would receive eternal life for obedience to His law? Every promise God made to national Israel has been fulfilled. His promise to save a remnant for eternal life was fulfilled in Christ.

God had chosen the nation of Israel, but even so, there was also a choice on their part....They could serve God, and remain His people, or they could reject God, and God would reject them. Israel chose to reject God, but that didn't diminish His sovereignty one bit.

Israel made the only choice fallen man can make. It's no different with fallen man today. Man can only choose in accordance to whom they are bound to.

I guess that's where you and I differ. Scripture seems to indicate that the Lord enables us by filling us with His Spirit, and this occurs after we make the free will decision to follow Him.

How can that be? Christ tells us that a man cannot see (understand) or enter the kingdom of God except a man be born again of the Spirit.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

How can we know to make a free will decision to follow Him without the indwelling Spirit?

It is the Spirit of Christ inside of us that enables us to serve Him in victory, and God only gives His Spirit to those who believe. The enabling comes after the decision to follow Christ, not vice-versa.

Yes, this is the point I was making above. We cannot serve Him without the indwelling Spirit enabling us.

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

We are spiritually dead in trespasses and sins until we "hear" the Word of God. After "hearing" we receive faith to believe, having faith to believe, we freely choose to turn to Christ that we might have life, repenting of our sins. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

I guess the point I was getting at was this.......if we couldn't choose to defy God's omnipotent authority, could God still be called sovereign? In other words, if God had created man without a capacity to choose, but had pre-programmed us to serve only Him, could God still be called sovereign? Is sovereignty the same as control?

How can any created being choose to defy omnipotent God? Omnipotent means all-ruling; universal sovereign absolute power. I don't find God's elect as being pre-programmed. I find them as being rescued from everlasting condemnation. Every man is born in Adam, therefore fallen, and left in this state will be condemned. But God...in His great love for His creation chose to save some men from this fate that would otherwise befall all men.

Men don't understand this, and find great offense in God choosing to save only some men. They cry "unfair"... I see that as looking at God from a very negative perspective. Because I see a God of great love, mercy, grace and compassion for those whom He has elected to save. No man deserves this great love and mercy God bestows upon His people, but praise God that He saves any man.

Sovereignty seems to imply an authoritative governing of free moral agents....people who have choices, and the ability to choose. If Adam and Eve were created with an incapacity for rebellion against God, and had no choice in the matter, could God still be called sovereign?

Adam and Eve willfully disobeyed God. Remember they did this through deception by the serpent, and they did this without having any knowledge of good or evil. Not the same with us. We choose to turn the truth of God into a lie, and worship the creature rather than the Creator while knowing that God is Who He says He is. I wonder if you fully understand what it means to be sovereign, or omnipotent? There can only be one sovereign over the universe...if man has free will as you depict, then man is sovereign over God, and God is subjected to the fallen will of man to accomplish His redemptive plan.

Of course, we are now in bondage to sin, but let me ask you this......Was man truly free before the Fall? He chose to rebel against God, and as a result of that choice, He fell into bondage, but the thing is, at this point, he was neither a slave to righteousness, nor a slave to sin, but he was free to choose.

Man had no knowledge of either good or evil before the fall. Do you think that might affect the choice he made, or how about the choice we make? It really matters little whether man was in bondage before the fall, because his choice plunged all of his offspring into bondage after the fall. Even if we could argue for free will then, that would have all changed very dramatically after the fall. Now we are free to choose according to our nature...fallen or spiritual. We cannot choose that which would go against our nature.

People without Christ sin because they are in bondage to sin.....that is their nature. That is what causes us to sin, so let me ask you....if Adam didn't have this nature, then what was it that caused HIM to sin?

I believe that sin and evil have always been part of God's redemptive plan. This is why God created the serpent more subtil than they, and through their ignorance of good or evil was able to deceive, causing them to disobey God through deception. Had Adam and Eve never sinned, how could they ever know the "good" (love) that God has for them?

I'm thinking that free will is a bad choice of words on my part. You're right....the Bible doesn't specifically mention free will.
I guess choice would be a better word to use.

Have I overlooked Scripture that tells us we can make a free choice, while dead in trespasses and sins to come to Christ for life before we have faith?

As far as God's sovereignty......could God be truly sovereign if man did not have the ability to choose? To eradicate man's ability to choose would be to eradicate evil within human history, and thus limit God's sovereignty by not allowing Him to use evil for His glory.

If man could choose, then God would not be sovereign. God does not eradicate man's ability to choose! Again, we freely choose to fulfill the flesh, being in bondage to Satan, sin and death before we are born again. And we freely choose to please God, turning from sin to Christ when we have been born again.

Many Blessings,
RW

[legoman]

In these very scriptures refute yourself, legoman. You've shot yourself in the foot here, my friend.

Hi TBR, sorry for my late response to this, I've been away for the week.

But I don't think there has been any shooting of the feet here

These very scriptures do not refute anything TBR, they support what I said. I will explain further.

Psalm 139:15 clearly states (As can be supported by Romans1) that Christ is here before us even prior to His walking the earth as a man. He was around from the foundations of the earth. This not only supports all things through Christ from the beginning, but also that He is always before us. We have no reason to not choose Him and turn from ourselves. Livingword shared scripture along these exact lines.

I agree with your first thought here. Christ has been around from the foundations of the earth. All things are through Christ. But it is quite obvious from many other scriptures that we are blind to Christ until God enables us and he reveals himself to us. This is getting off the topic of my response, but how would someone choose Christ who has never heard of the Son of God?

Proverbs is not a doctrinal book, just putting that out there. Very wise stuff from Solomon, but not doctrinal.

Sorry I can't let this pass. What are you talking about? Why is Proverbs not doctrinal? What does "doctrinal" mean anyway? What are you saying? Its some nice stuff to read, very wise stuff, but we can't gain understanding of God based on Proverbs? We can't trust it? Its not the truth about God? Then why is it in the Bible?

Proverbs 16:9 states emphatically that man plans his own course. That right there clearly says that we do have free will. No matter if we choose God's way or not, He directs our steps. If we place our faith in Him, we will be guided according to His ways. If we don't place our faith in Him, He will either call us in hope that we will heed Him or give us over to our selves. Either way, we plan our steps. God can work in whatever our choices are.

It is not hard to see the plain meaning. It can be hard to accept it.

Man is planning his course, but it is God directing the man. It is not clearly saying we have free will, as you suggest. It is saying the opposite.

Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course,
but the LORD determines his steps.

Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a man's heart,
but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

Here is a non-proverbs reference:
Jeremiah 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.

TBR, you say "Either way, we plan our steps." That is not what these scriptures say. You have turned the meaning to its exact opposite. The scriptures quite clearly says man does not determine his steps. The lord does. Now, man may plan a course, but it is God directing him. That is what these verses say. The Jeremiah verse is even more emphatic. "A man's life is not his own". That pretty much says it all I think. Jeremiah knew that God was directing everything.

You do not paint a proper picture of the very essence of the nature of God - love. You cannot force love. If you do - it's not real.

I have said repeatedly that God does not need to force anyone to do anything. We choose to do things because we want to do those things. We are acting in response to our desires and our experiences and our environment. If a man is dying of thirst, does anyone have to force him to drink a glass of water? No.

Same with God's love. When God reveals himself to someone in their heart, they cannot choose to say no, because there would be no reason to say no. Now of course there are people that have heard the gospel but choose to ignore it. They have heard with their ears but not with their heart. They have not been enabled by God. And of course there are still struggles with the flesh and Satan even after we have heard in the heart.

Case in point: Saul/Paul. He was "chief" amongst sinners (1 Tim 1:15) by his own admission. He was the worst sinner ever. Yet he was truly converted to Christ in probably about 5 seconds on the road to Damascus (Acts 9). A flash of light appeared and he fell to the ground trembling while the Lord spoke to him. So, did he choose Christ of his own free will, or did he choose him because he saw the light (literally) and had his eyes opened? Now not everyone is converted with as much flash or as quickly as Paul was. But the process is the same.

For God to force, or script out our very lives, we cannot either be free to love Him with the same Godly love He extends to us. That is the same love that caused the Father to send the Son. The same Son that freely died for the love of the Father which we are also called to live within, so that you can claim then that our lives lived as not free within that love? All Christ had to have done is call upon the Father and He would have been spared the death He died. He laid down His life freely for the love of the Father and for the sheep. Essence of the gospel stuff here.

Do you think Christ had the option to not be crucified on the cross? Even Christ did not have free will. Jesus came to do the will of the Father. Jesus was the lamb to be slain from the foundation of the world. Jesus' sacrifice was God's plan from the beginning to save the world from its sin. There is no way Jesus would not have fulfilled his destiny.

What is it you fear, legoman? What is it that keeps you from the freedom of that love?

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom"

TBR, what is it you fear? Are you afraid of what it might mean if you really do not have free will and God is in control of everything?

Peace in Christ,
Legoman