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Thread: Gog and Magog war?

  1. #1

    Gog and Magog war?

    I was wanting to get some scholarly input on the Gog and Magog war of Revelation, and The Gog and Magog war of Ezekiel? It seems to me that that they must be one and the same war or else why wouldn't God have labeled it something different in Rev. We didn't call World war II World war I for instance. Input Please? Literalist-Luke, what is your conviction on this?

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    Gog/Magog, Part One of Two

    You just had to ask, didn't you? All right, here goes....


    Is Gog Antichrist?

    There is a divergence of opinion among many modern prophecy teachers regarding the identification of Gog and his coalition of nations. The majority position for the past few centuries — really ever since the Reformation — is that the invading army of nations described in Ezekiel 38-39 is not the army of Antichrist, but of another army entirely led by some other vague evil world leader. This is because of a common assumption that the Antichrist would be of European ancestry. However, a careful re-examination can lead one to a more clearly defined conclusion.

    Thou Shalt Have No Other Gog

    There are two specific mentions of Gog and Magog in the Bible. Gog is mentioned not only in Ezekiel but also in Revelation. Let’s look at the passage in Revelation 20:7-10:

    When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth — Gog and Magog — and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.

    Even after the earthly thousand-year reign of Christ from Jerusalem, the Bible says that yet another army will form to attack the holy city of Jerusalem. Again, the leader of this army is called Gog and his army, Magog. Those who take the position that Gog is not the Antichrist must explain how this “Gog” and his armies return, so to speak, at least a thousand years after the first Gog. (Note: This is not to suggest that this is a “resurrection” of Gog. In fact, I would strongly disagree with such a suggestion.) This is a difficulty for those who argue that Gog and the Antichrist are not the same individual. The first “Gog and Magog” must share more than a mere name with the second “Gog and Magog” or why would the Bible give them the same name? There is a correlation between the two that extends beyond this very unusual title. Those who see Gog and the Antichrist as two separate entities must be able to explain just what similarities the Gog of Ezekiel and the Gog of Revelation bear that merits them both carrying the same name. So far I have yet to see a satisfactory explanation.

    Actually, in order to understand who Revelation 20’s Gog is, all one must really do is take a look at who Antichrist is. Antichrist, quite simply, is the closest Satan can get to creating the “devil incarnate”. There are actually passages of Scripture that shift from speaking of Satan to speaking of the Antichrist seamlessly as if they are one and the same, such as Isaiah 14. And as we find in Revelation 13 and 17, Satan will even share his worship with Antichrist. Simply stated, Antichrist is Satan’s puppet that he will use to attack Jerusalem. And in Revelation 20, Gog is also Satan’s puppet that will serve the very same purpose, trying to wipe out Israel and as a consequence, God’s kingdom. In terms of both role and function, Antichrist and the Gog of Revelation are essentially the same. Even as Satan will raise up a man to carry out his work in the Tribulation, so will Satan also raise up another man to carry out his final rebellion against God one more time at the end of the Millennium. Both times, the leader of Satan’s rebellion against Jerusalem is referred to as Gog and his army is called Magog. Why should we view the basic nature of the first Gog as being any different than the second? Those who view Ezekiel’s Gog as different from Antichrist find themselves at a loss to provide any explanation on this matter.

    Spoken Of By the Former Prophets

    Consider this second point carefully, for it is essential. Ezekiel says specifically of Gog that other biblical prophets spoke of him in times past:

    This is what the Sovereign Lord says: ‘You are the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel. At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them.’” —Ezekiel 38:17

    The question must be asked then, if Gog is spoken of by Israel’s former prophets prior to Ezekiel but Gog is not the Antichrist, then where are these references? One will be very hard pressed to find any. In fact, I have yet to see a single treatment of this subject by those who claim that Gog is not the Antichrist. If, however, we take the position that Gog is Antichrist, then it is very easy to find numerous passages about him and his invading army throughout the prophets.

    The Description of Gog’s Defeat

    There is another strong reason to equate Gog with the Antichrist. It is because the descriptions concerning the destruction of Gog and his armies are strikingly similar to the destruction of the Antichrist and his armies in Revelation and Zechariah. For example:

    I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign LORD. Every man’s sword will be against his fellow. I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him. Then I will strike your bow from your left hand and make your arrows drop from your right hand. On the mountains of Israel you will fall, you and all your troops and the nations with you. I will give you as food to all kinds of carrion birds and to the wild animals. You will fall in the open field, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord. I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in safety in the coastlands, and they will know that I am the Lord. ——Ezekiel 38:22; 39:3-6

    Similarly in Revelation, concerning the destruction of the Antichrist and his armies, we read:

    Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. ‘He will rule them with an iron scepter.’ He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, ‘Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.’ Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.” —Revelation 19:11-21

    It is interesting to note that in both passages, a feast is prepared for the scavenging birds to feast on the flesh of the dead from the fallen armies. In both passages, we also read about the sword that God will bring against the attacking armies and their leaders. The most reasonable conclusion would seem to be that we have two descriptions of one event each from slightly, though very similar perspectives. Ezekiel describes this terrible event from one angle while Revelation describes it from another.

    In addition, look at Ezekiel 39:18a – “You [the carrion birds] will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth” This reference to the “princes of the earth” makes no sense if Gog is only an isolated Russian ruler doomed to immediate destruction. A person who believes that Antichrist and Gog are different people would have to assume that the nations in the list of invaders were being referenced here, so why would the birds be eating the princes of the earth? Would it not be only the princes of the nations listed by Ezekiel? But if Gog is the Antichrist, it makes perfect sense. It is because by the time this “great supper of God Almighty” takes place, the invaders of Gog/Magog will have been joined by the forces of Armageddon so the “princes of the earth” will indeed be present for this to be fulfilled precisely as described in the Bible.

    In addition, notice one other detail from Zechariah 14:13 – “On that day people will be stricken by the LORD with great panic. They will seize each other by the hand and attack one another.

    It is commonly agreed by most students of Biblical prophecy that Zechariah 14 is describing the Second Coming, because it mentions numerous details that could only be true of the Second Coming, including the famous description of the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives. Here in verse 13 of that chapter we see in the underlined portion that one of the means of the destruction of the Antichrist’s armies will be them fighting against each other. Notice this similar description from Ezekiel 38:21 – “Every man’s sword will be against his fellow.” There are too many parallels between the destruction of the two armies to dismiss them as being two separate armies.

    The Result of Gog’s Defeat

    Another important reason to see Gog as the Antichrist is because the results of Gog’s destruction are things that may only take place after Christ has returned. After describing Gog’s destruction, God declares:

    “I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the Lord. I will send fire on Magog and on those who live in safety in the coastlands, and they will know that I am the Lord. I will make known my holy name among my people Israel. I will no longer let my holy name be profaned, and the nations will know that I the Lord am the Holy One in Israel. It is coming! It will surely take place, declares the Sovereign Lord. This is the day I have spoken of.” —Ezekiel 38:21-23; 39:6-8

    God Himself says that after the defeat of Gog, both the Gentile nations and Israelord” and God’s name is no longer “profaned”. The description of what will take place after Gog’s destruction is one that can only be applied to that period after Christ returns and has utterly destroyed all of His enemies. will know that He is God. No longer will His name be profaned. This description could not possibly be applied to some earlier invasion that takes place just prior to the coming forth of the Antichrist who will then spend years openly blaspheming God’s name, all the while gathering a global following in the process. That does not sound like a world where “the nations know that I am the L

    A person arguing that Gog is not the Antichrist must answer this question: Why would God allow the Antichrist or anyone else to persecute Israel after He has “gathered them to Himself” in Ezekiel 39:27-28? If Gog isn’t the Antichrist, then the Antichrist will be allowed to persecute Israel after God had “gathered Israel to Himself”.

    Beyond this, we also read that after the destruction of Gog, the people of Israel will burn the weapons of war that have been scattered on the battle field:

    “Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up—the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel. They will not need to gather wood from the fields or cut it from the forests, because they will use the weapons for fuel. And they will plunder those who plundered them and loot those who looted them”, declares the Sovereign Lord. —Ezekiel 39:9-10

    Such an event of course — the burning of weapons — would not take place unless the world was a place where weapons were no longer needed and where enemies no longer existed. As such, this passage is also highly reminiscent of the Prophet Micah’s descriptions of the Millennium:

    “He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. —Micah 4:3

    It seems very far fetched that an Israel who has just survived one of the largest invasions in their history (if not THE largest) would immediately begin disposing of all the weapons by burning them unless there was a very compelling reason to believe them to be no longer needed, such as Christ being present on his throne in Jerusalem to protect them. In the aftermath of such an invasion occurring prior to the Tribulation it is difficult (if not impossible) to imagine Israel simply destroying such a cache of weapons when they could very reasonably expect to need them for their own use against further aggression in the light of such events. In such circumstances, wouldn’t Israel be far more likely to stockpile the weapons for their own future use?

    A Great Earthquake

    Another similarity between the destruction of Gog and the Antichrist is that in both cases, at the time of their destruction there is a great earthquake that occurs. This is seen in several prophetic passages. The description in Ezekiel is quite extreme:

    “In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground. — Ezekiel 38:19-20

    In a very similar fashion, the Book for Revelation also describes a great earthquake as the armies of Antichrist are gathered together in and against Israel:

    “Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since the human race has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. —Revelation 16:18-20

    The original Hebrew word that is translated as “earthquake” at the beginning of the Ezekial quote is “raash”. Then when we are told that the people “tremble”, it is the same Hebrew word, “raash”. It is clear from this that people are not merely “trembling” out of fear as is sometimes argued, but that they are “trembling” in the midst of a great “trembling” or earthquake.
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    Gog/Magog, Part Two of Two

    Note these important details in the Ezekiel quote: Every creature on earth, including ALL humans on earth shake at the presence of God. Then after all things on earth shake the mountains are thrown down and every wall falls down. It is impossible to find other places in Scripture where the mountains are thrown down. Those who would argue that these are not the same event must demonstrate where the destruction of the mountains occurs prior to the end of the Tribulation anywhere in Scripture. It is true that the Ezekiel passage specifies that there will be an earthquake in Israel, but it seems quite likely that, although this earthquake could very possibly start in Israel, it would certainly expand beyond the boundaries of that tiny nation. It seems quite impossible for an earthquake that knocks over mountains and cliffs to be restricted solely to Israel. In fact, Ezekiel even specifies that “the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth” are in this earthquake. Clearly it cannot be restricted to only Israel but rather, the entire planet is affected by this event.

    Beyond a great earthquake, there is also the similarity of great hailstones that are said to rain on the armies of both Gog and the Antichrist:

    “I will execute judgment on him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him.” — Ezekiel 38:22

    “From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.” —Revelation 16:21

    So the descriptions concerning the destruction of Gog and the destruction of Antichrist are so similar that it is difficult for anyone to ignore. However, there is no doubt that despite this evidence, some will still have some arguments that they must still be separate individuals. So before we move on, let’s address some of these arguments against identifying Gog with the Antichrist.

    Arguments Against Gog as the Antichrist

    There are two common arguments used against the idea that Gog and Antichrist are the same person. The first argument is that Gog cannot be Antichrist because Gog is killed by Christ, while the Antichrist is not killed but rather is thrown alive into the lake of fire. The two passages cited are the following:

    On that day I will give Gog a burial place in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east of the Sea. It will block the way of travelers, because Gog and all his hordes will be buried there.” – Ezekiel 39:11

    “But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.” —Revelation 19:20

    However at two other places in Scripture we read that the Antichrist will indeed be physically killed:

    “And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.” — 2 Thessalonians 2:8

    “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. — Daniel 7:11

    All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.” – Isaiah 14:11

    You are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword, those who descend to the stones of the pit, like a corpse trampled underfoot.” – Isaiah 14:19

    Apparently, the Antichrist will be physically killed by Jesus. The description of the Antichrist and the False Prophet being thrown “alive” into hell is a description of the final judgment against the Antichrist after this. The point of Revelation 19:20 is that the Antichrist and the False Prophet are not even permitted the “luxury” of the Great White Throne judgment. Their evil is apparently so pronounced that they go straight to the Lake of Fire, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

    Notice Isaiah 14’s description of the final condition of the Antichrist: “Maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.” Does that not sound like a decaying corpse? However, some will point out that Jesus described Hell as a place where “the worm never dies”, so Isaiah 14:19 clarifies it even further for us: “You are cast out of your tomb like a rejected branch; you are covered with the slain, with those pierced by the sword.” How could this man be “cast out of his tomb” and “covered with the slain” unless there is a body present for these things to happen to?

    In addition, how exactly is one “cast alive” into the Lake of Fire? Wouldn’t a physical body be destroyed immediately? A physical body wouldn’t survive more than a few minutes of fire, not to mention eternity. Just because Nicolai Carpathia (the Antichrist of the “Left Behind” series) was physically put “alive” into the Lake of Fire doesn’t mean that’s how it will actually happen. That was only Tim LaHayes’ and Jerry Jenkins’ opinion. Rather, it seems that the intent is that this man’s evil will be so pronounced that he won’t even be given the chance of facing the Great White Throne judgment. Some would even argue that he really was alive once before, actually died (and went to “hell” on that occasion) and has consequently no option left but to go straight to the Lake of Fire. This would go along with the often-suggested theory that the Antichrist will be killed and come back to life as is described in Revelation chapters 13 and 17.

    The second argument against Gog as Antichrist is based on the description of the invasion and the seemingly immediate and complete defeat of Gog and his army. Those in opposition to the notion that Gog is the Antichrist will usually argue that the description of Gog in Ezekiel 38-39 cannot be speaking of the Antichrist and his armies because a cursory reading of this passage appears to present us with the image of a supernaturally foiled attack that never really accomplishes its objectives. Because the Antichrist and his forces will occupy Israel for some time, the descriptions that we read in Ezekiel, it is argued, cannot be describing the Antichrist invasion, because the invasion of Ezekiel 38-39 appears to be stopped dead in its tracks. To address this argument, let us consider the following passage. Most will be fully familiar with it:

    “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.” — Isaiah 9:6-7

    After reading this famous passage, let us try to imagine ourselves as a devout 1st century Jew. We read about the coming of the Messiah: “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given.” If we were to read this passage in as natural a manner as possible, what would our conclusions be? What would we expect from this child? The passage certainly seems clear: He will immediately assume the leadership role as the King over the Jewish nation and people. In fact, of the increase of his government there will be no end. However, the Christian reader will read this passage and quite casually explain that there is a gap in this passage. There is what is sometimes called a telescoping, where an extended period of time is described in a condensed fashion. But are any real indicators within the Isaiah passage that would indicate this? There are not. So while the Christian has no problem seeing in this passage a two thousand year gap despite the lack of any indicators of such, somehow many cannot see that a gap of merely months or only a few years could be present in Ezekiel 38 and 39. In Ezekiel 38 and 39, what we have is a specific snapshot of the invasion and eventual destruction of the Antichrist and his armies. Other snapshots are presented elsewhere in Scripture. Because the limited and temporary successes of the Antichrist are not mentioned in this passage, this in no way disqualifies this passage as referring to the same invasion that we read about in the books of Daniel, Revelation, or Zechariah, all of which pertain to the Antichrist.

    It could also be suggested that the Ezekiel prophecy requires the earthquake to take place immediately. This would be based on Ezekiel 38:19 – “In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel.” The Hebrew word “yowm”, that is here translated as “time”, can also be translated as “age” or “season” among other possibilities. So the possibility is left open by the original Hebrew that there could be a gap of time between the invasion and the resultant judgment.

    Rosh?

    Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshek and Tubal; prophesy against him…” — Ezekiel 38:2

    Some Bible translations differ on how to interpret the portion of this verse that says, “the chief prince of.” In the original Hebrew, the word translated in the above example as “chief prince” is “rosh.” While “rosh” probably means “prince,” or “head,” some argue that it should be treated as a proper noun, “Rosh”, referring to the name of a place.

    Well-known American prophecy teacher Mark Hitchcock has examined this issue in his book Iran: The Coming Crisis. There Hitchcock accurately points out that the Septuagint—a first century B.C. Greek translation of the Old Testament—as well as Wilhelm Gesenius, one of the most respected Hebrew scholars of modern times, have both chosen to translate this word “Rosh” as a proper noun. This is indeed enough to give one cause to consider the possibility. However, it is the conclusion of those who choose this translation that need to be challenged. Those who feel as though Rosh is a place, most often use this word to find Russia here as one of the invading nations. This opinion is also supported by the fact that Ezekiel specifically says that Gog would come from the “far north”. And indeed, Russia is perfectly north of Israel. Nevertheless, there are some serious problems with including modern Russia in Ezekiel’s grouping of nations. While Hitchcock points out that there are various mentions of a people whose name bears similarities to Rosh found in many ancient sources, there is actually almost no real knowledge as to specifically where these people may have lived in Ezekiel’s day. The only real information that Hitchcock provides is summed up in the following fairly vague statement: “when Ezekiel wrote his prophecy, several bands of the Rosh people lived in an area to the north of the Black Sea.” However, according to Bible scholar James D. Price, in an article in the Grace Theological Journal, Rosh “was a well-known land in antiquity on the banks of the Tigris river, bordering on ElamIran. (James D. Price, “Rosh: An Ancient Land Known to Ezekiel,” Grace Theological Journal, Vol. 6, No. 1, 1985, p. 69.) and Ellipi,” in the far western part of modern

    So let’s assume that this is true—namely that several “bands” of people known by the name of “Rosh” did live in either the far western portion of Iran or in “an area to the north of the Black Sea”. What does this leave us with? The approach that we are taking here—and which Hitchcock claims to take as well—is that these ancient names provide us only with geographic locations. We then may look at the regions mentioned and include these in the list of regions that will be part of the coming Antichrist Empire. However, what we reject—and again what Hitchcock claims to reject as well—is that we should find in these names particular bloodlines and ethnicities and trace them to their modern day ancestors. You can imagine how difficult this would quickly become. So even if we agreed that Rosh were referring to “an area to the north of the Black Sea”, we are at best left with a very small portion of Russia (roughly 5%) extending from Dagestan and GeorgiaChechnya and northeast to the Ukraine. There may be some credence to this notion in that these portions of Russia are predominantly Muslim. Nevertheless, to use such a small source of information to include all the other 95% of Russia here is to drastically exaggerate the findings. through

    Admittedly, in light of several political developments such as various military and nuclear agreements that have recently taken place between Russia and Iran, this may be very tempting to do. However, this approach is not only inconsistent, but may also even be irresponsible. Either one uses Ezekiel’s prophecies to lead one to modern regions, or one uses Ezekiel’s prophecies to lead to ethnic peoples, but one cannot simply switch from one approach to the other as it suits one’s particular slant on prophecy to fit today’s newspaper headlines.

    Now, having examined the reasons to consider Rosh as a proper name, let us now also consider the reasons not to see Rosh as proper name: The Hebrew word “rosh” is used nearly six hundred other times in the Bible and is each time interpreted as meaning “head, chief, top, best” or something similar. Why then of the nearly six hundred times in the Bible would we make only one exception and translate it here as a proper noun? This really makes little sense. The “Rosh” here in Ezekiel is actually the same “Rosh” that we find in the name “Rosh Hashanah” – “The chief day of the year” - the Jewish New Year. Also, consider this: of the eight nations mentioned, all except one are grandsons of Noah and are mentioned in what is known as “the Table of Nations” in Genesis 10. The other nation is Persia. Persia however was a very well known nation in Ezekiel’s day. It was the head of the fast-growing Medo-Persian Empire that later ruled the entire Middle East, including Babylon where Ezekiel lived at the time he wrote his book. Now juxtapose this to Russia, which didn’t even exist in Ezekiel’s day and wouldn’t for several more centuries. To simply attempt to toss “Rosh” into the list here—an alleged name that is neither a descendant of Noah nor a well-known nation of that day certainly seems out of place. As Bible scholar Dr. Merrill F. Unger admits, “Linguistic evidence for the equation [of Rosh with Russia] is confessedly only presumptive.” During the cold war, of course, this opinion was a popular one. The reasoning of many was that because Russia was the “head” of the atheistic Soviet Union, surely such an anti-God empire was the fulfillment of Bible prophecy. But we must be very careful not to read our assumptions or modern events into Scripture. We must allow Scripture to speak for itself. Unfortunately, many Bible teachers still seem to cling to this interpretation. The notion that Russia is specifically mentioned here in Ezekiel seems to be doubtful and again, even if true, leads us not to Russia but only to a relatively small southern portion of Russia which today is predominately Islamic.
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  4. #4

    Ok?

    One thing, you mentioned Zechariah 14:13 and Ezekiel 38:21 when God causes the enemy to turn on himself. YOu seemed to be eluding the Zechariah passage to being the same as the war of Gog and Magog passages, but isn't Zechariah speaking of Christ's return at the end of the tribulation when He arrives on His horse with his armies that are on white horses also? Revelation seems to speak of this war of Gog and Magog at the end of the millenial reign.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wesand24 View Post
    One thing, you mentioned Zechariah 14:13 and Ezekiel 38:21 when God causes the enemy to turn on himself. YOu seemed to be eluding the Zechariah passage to being the same as the war of Gog and Magog passages, but isn't Zechariah speaking of Christ's return at the end of the tribulation when He arrives on His horse with his armies that are on white horses also? Revelation seems to speak of this war of Gog and Magog at the end of the millenial reign.
    The Gog/Magog of Revelation 20 is not the same occurrence as Ezekiel 38-39. They are separated by ca. 1000 years.

    In Ezekiel 38-39, when God pours down His destruction on the invaders, that is at Armageddon in conjunction with the 2nd Coming. The invasion takes place halfway through the Tribulation and then 3.5 years later, the destruction of the invaders takes place at Bosrah and Armageddon in conjunction with Christ's 2nd Coming.
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  6. #6

    Ok

    Now it all makes sense, thanks a bunch, I really enjoy reading your responses to threads

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    No problem, that'll be .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
    The Gog/Magog of Revelation 20 is not the same occurrence as Ezekiel 38-39. They are separated by ca. 1000 years.

    In Ezekiel 38-39, when God pours down His destruction on the invaders, that is at Armageddon in conjunction with the 2nd Coming. The invasion takes place halfway through the Tribulation and then 3.5 years later, the destruction of the invaders takes place at Bosrah and Armageddon in conjunction with Christ's 2nd Coming.
    I lean toward thinking that Eze and Rev's Magog are two separate events. I disagree with the second paragraph but thats another matter.

    My question or thought for you to ponder is, what if Eze's Magog event happens, and considering that many folks do think it is the same event as either Rev 20 or more likely 19 (Second Advent). It could posibly be a real grand entrance for the AC?




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    Quote Originally Posted by quiet dove View Post
    My question or thought for you to ponder is, what if Eze's Magog event happens, and considering that many folks do think it is the same event as either Rev 20 or more likely 19 (Second Advent). It could posibly be a real grand entrance for the AC?
    Well, if you want to start talking about traditional misinterpretations of the Bible contributing to people being open to deception, I could say a few things about the Pre-Trib Rapture that would ruffle a few feathers.

    Sorry, I just couldn't resist that little jab there.

    Did you really want to talk about the timing of Gog/Magog or were you just putting in your ?
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
    Well, if you want to start talking about traditional misinterpretations of the Bible contributing to people being open to deception, I could say a few things about the Pre-Trib Rapture that would ruffle a few feathers.
    That was not my point nor was I thinking anything personal about your interpretations, or any possible leading to deception, I was simply presenting a scenario for thought, sorry if you took me personally in that way, it was not my intent, never crossed my mind actually.

    Did you really want to talk about the timing of Gog/Magog or were you just putting in your ?
    I am open to talk about it as I was not trying to be dogmatic. I do have problems with it being Rev 20, but I also have problems with it being Rev 19, that is why I wonder if it is not entirely separate from both of them and basically convienent for the AC. While there are similarities with Rev 19 and/or20, it seems there are differences also.




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    Quote Originally Posted by quiet dove View Post
    That was not my point nor was I thinking anything personal about your interpretations, or any possible leading to deception, I was simply presenting a scenario for thought, sorry if you took me personally in that way, it was not my intent, never crossed my mind actually.
    No, no, not at all. I was just teasing you. Sorry I didn't get that across successfully. I've gotten to where I know you well enough to know how you mean things. If anything, I'd be the one more likely to start getting personal about things. Let's see, how many times have you had to rope me back in because I posted without counting to ten.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Literalist-Luke View Post
    No problem, that'll be .
    Really, you just HAD to go there....

    Here's your . I'll be reading your "tale of two cities" novel you wrote a few posts earlier.

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    captain's log, star-date, 10172008.1

    I have... completed... Literalist-luke's prose. ... And.... for the most part.... I agree with his conclusions.

    However... I would like to bring up... another perspective.... one that has not been researched at all.... in the last 2600 years.

    Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal: Ezekiel 38:2-3.

    Compare this verse... with...this one....

    Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Daniel 10:12-13

    ... and this one....

    Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. Daniel 10:20

    .. and this one...

    But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince. verse 21.

    ... and this one....

    And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Dan 12:1

    I read these passages and I get the feeling that this "prince" thing is more than what it appears. Now I know that the term "prince", when used in Daniel, described the angels who were protectors of certain areas. Every nation had a "prince", and Michael, the "prince" of Israel, fought with Gabriel to have him escape the clutches of the "prince" of Persia.

    Now, I am not going to debunk your theory that Gog is the Antichrist. I agree with it to a certain point, since Gog is the puppet of Satan, and is used both as the AntiChrist, and the chief prince that fights against Jerusalem at the last day.

    My point? I believe that Gog is an archangel. Gog is the prince of the nations that encompass the northern regions, including Tubal. The land of Magog is the land that is named after the prince of th at land. I personally do not believe that Magog was ever an actual empirical land, but rather it stands for the lands in which Gog has rule over, as it's "chief prince".

    I could be wrong, but I think it makes sense. This would explain why Gog is summoned again after the Millennium, even after the Beast and the False prophet is hurled into the Lake. Gog, a fallen angel, likened to the "prince of Persia and Grecia", commits himself to the cause of overthrowing Michael, the chief prince of Israel, and then Israel herself, as the arm of the dragon.

    Now I must say this. All of what I am saying is purely conjecture. I am, not sure about it at all. In fact, I am pretty much convinced that even if I am right, that it really has no bearing on anything at all, other than to explain how Gog survives even after his king is hurled into the abyss, and thus is used again to wage war against God for the last time.

    So, literalist-luke, what say you? (head... dizzy....).

  14. #14
    Literalist-Luke, GREAT posts! I really enjoyed reading it, thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    My point? I believe that Gog is an archangel. Gog is the prince of the nations that encompass the northern regions, including Tubal. The land of Magog is the land that is named after the prince of th at land. I personally do not believe that Magog was ever an actual empirical land, but rather it stands for the lands in which Gog has rule over, as it's "chief prince".

    I could be wrong, but I think it makes sense. This would explain why Gog is summoned again after the Millennium, even after the Beast and the False prophet is hurled into the Lake. Gog, a fallen angel, likened to the "prince of Persia and Grecia", commits himself to the cause of overthrowing Michael, the chief prince of Israel, and then Israel herself, as the arm of the dragon.
    You know, as I was reading everything over the thought kept crossing my mind that Gog was the "spirit" of the AC and Magog was the kingdom that he represents. Now, ThirdHero, after reading your post, I confirm my belief except I totally agree that this Gog is indeed an Angel which represents the Antichrist. Thanks for bringing it up dude .

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    Quote Originally Posted by third hero View Post
    I believe that Gog is an archangel. Gog is the prince of the nations that encompass the northern regions, including Tubal. The land of Magog is the land that is named after the prince of th at land. I personally do not believe that Magog was ever an actual empirical land, but rather it stands for the lands in which Gog has rule over, as it's "chief prince".

    I could be wrong, but I think it makes sense. This would explain why Gog is summoned again after the Millennium, even after the Beast and the False prophet is hurled into the Lake. Gog, a fallen angel, likened to the "prince of Persia and Grecia", commits himself to the cause of overthrowing Michael, the chief prince of Israel, and then Israel herself, as the arm of the dragon.

    Now I must say this. All of what I am saying is purely conjecture. I am, not sure about it at all. In fact, I am pretty much convinced that even if I am right, that it really has no bearing on anything at all, other than to explain how Gog survives even after his king is hurled into the abyss, and thus is used again to wage war against God for the last time.

    So, literalist-luke, what say you?
    Wow, I'm actually very intrigued. This is an angle I've not considered before, but it could certainly sew up a few loose threads. Thanks for throwing this in, I'm going to be giving it some very serious thought.
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