"Oneness" and the Trinity

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I was just getting into a discussion with another member about "oneness" a few minutes ago. I've never really read up on oneness and don't know much about it. What little I've found out is that apparently somebody who subscribes to "oneness" believes that the doctrine of the Trinity is heresy.

I find this confusing. I don't really see that it's all that big a deal.

I mean, I agree that there is only one God, just like the Bible says. The way I've always understood the Trinity (not that I'm a theologian or anything) is sort of like me. One moment, I'm Literalist-Luke, official Opinion Meister of Bible Forums. Another moment, I'm a sales rep working for my company. Then, in another moment, I'm the sound operator at my church. One person in different roles. I've just always taken God in pretty much the same way. He has different aspects/roles that we see manifested in different ways, especially in the Father/Son/Holy Spirit roles. But they're all the same God. So I don't see what the big deal is that the Trinity would be a problem.

Can somebody elaborate on this and explain why it becomes such a big issue to some people? Thanks.

Jesus said in John 8:24 that unless you believe He is who He said He is, you will die in your sins. Faith means nothing unless you have placed your faith in the right thing (person).

'Oneness' folks do not believe that the second person of the Triune Godhead (Christ) stepped out of eternity and into time to take on a human form. For instance, they believe that at Jesus' baptism, He jumped up to heaven to say, "a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.". Do you see how ridiculous that is? This is what Oneness folks believe. Not only that, a simple examination of scripture in it's original language (Genesis 1:26) states that God is plural.

[threebigrocks]

The topic at hand is limited to being discussed in the World REligions forum only. Moving it there for continued discussion.

[Literalist-Luke]

Jesus said in John 8:24 that unless you believe He is who He said He is, you will die in your sins. Faith means nothing unless you have placed your faith in the right thing (person).

'Oneness' folks do not believe that the second person of the Triune Godhead (Christ) stepped out of eternity and into time to take on a human form. For instance, they believe that at Jesus' baptism, He jumped up to heaven to say, "a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.". Do you see how ridiculous that is? This is what Oneness folks believe. Not only that, a simple examination of scripture in it's original language (Genesis 1:26) states that God is plural.

So who do they think Jesus was addressing from the cross when He said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

[Literalist-Luke]

The topic at hand is limited to being discussed in the World REligions forum only. Moving it there for continued discussion.

OK, thanks. Sorry 'bout that.

[Literalist-Luke]

The issue of the Trinity was a big deal for the Early Church, and mainly dealt with two heretical schools of thought that sprung up.

One said that Christians were more or less polytheists, and each god operated independently. This was more or less rejected out of hand as paganism.

The other, known as Modalism, is essentially what you have explained your view to be. It basically expressed the idea that there is One God who expressed himself in different modes, such as sometimes being the Father, and sometimes the Son, etc. The Church wrestled with this for a long time before ultimately declaring it a heresy.

The classical orthodox view (among Catholics and Protestants, but not really Eastern Orthodox) is that God is "Three in Person yet One in Essence."

Now, as to what that means, is a little more complex. The way I understand it, simply, is that God is three entities, with three distinct personalities, in perfect community, and that each person submits completely to each other so that together, and each performs different functions, and together this communal organism is one God.

There are some other issues, such as God being of one substance or essence, and analogies such as God being a sheet, and members of the Trinity being different corners or folds of that sheet, but honestly it's way to late for me to understand these enough for me to explain them coherently.

I think the most important thing to grasp is that, traditionally, our God is understood as a community of three distinct persons. This is not polytheistic because the three persons in community, together constitute a single deity.

This is one of the hardest issues in Christian theology, and I probably shouldn't have tackled it this early in the morning. Did that make any sense?

Kind of, although I have to admit, that's the first time anybody has ever been so nice about informing me that my view was a heresy.

[Literalist-Luke]

http://www.carm.org/heresy/modalism.htm

OK, based on the definition given here of "modalism", I am not a modalist, because I do not see that there can only be one "mode" at a time for God. In fact, we see quite clearly at Jesus' baptism that all three "modes" have occurred all at once. So I guess I'm not a heretic after all.

[Literalist-Luke]

OK, this has all been a very informative discussion, but my originally intended question has still not been answered: Why do "oneness" people have a problem with the Trinity? Somebody give me an answer that starts with "Because....."

Thanks.

[Whispering Grace]

OK, this has all been a very informative discussion, but my originally intended question has still not been answered: Why do "oneness" people have a problem with the Trinity? Somebody give me an answer that starts with "Because....."

Thanks.

From what you described, you do not believe in the Trinity either.

[Whispering Grace]

OK, based on the definition given here of "modalism", I am not a modalist, because I do not see that there can only be one "mode" at a time for God. In fact, we see quite clearly at Jesus' baptism that all three "modes" have occurred all at once. So I guess I'm not a heretic after all.

How can all 3 "modes" occur at once if they are not 3 distinct Persons?

[Literalist-Luke]

From what you described, you do not believe in the Trinity either.

Well, I would have said that I do.

How can all 3 "modes" occur at once if they are not 3 distinct Persons?

I suppose my use of the word "modes" might have been a poor choice. I understand that there are three distinctive personalities within the Triune Godhead, and that they yet somehow function as one. Maybe my deal is that I just simply accept it on faith and don't try to complicate things by figuring out the mechanics of it all.

[Whispering Grace]

So who do they think Jesus was addressing from the cross when He said "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Who do you think Jesus was addressing?

Either the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate and distinct (the Trinity) or they are not. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are merely different roles of God (as you seemed to assert in the OP), then how does one "role" or "mode" communicate separately to another "role" or "mode"?

[Whispering Grace]

Well, I would have said that I do. I suppose my use of the word "modes" might have been a poor choice. I understand that there are three distinctive personalities within the Triune Godhead, and that they yet somehow function as one. Maybe my deal is that I just simply accept it on faith and don't try to complicate things by figuring out the mechanics of it all.

I would say there are 3 distinct and separate Persons (yet still one God) instead of one God with 3 different personalities. The idea of there being one God with 3 different personalities makes it seem like God is schizophrenic.

But I agree, I think it's all more than our finite little pea brains can comprehend and something we must take in faith.

[Literalist-Luke]

Who do you think Jesus was addressing?

God the Father.

Either the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate and distinct (the Trinity) or they are not. If the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are merely different roles of God (as you seemed to assert in the OP), then how does one "role" or "mode" communicate separately to another "role" or "mode"?

It's both in my understanding. They are distinct, but not separate, in my understanding. There is one God made up of three different persons.

[mcgyver]

OK, this has all been a very informative discussion, but my originally intended question has still not been answered: Why do "oneness" people have a problem with the Trinity? Somebody give me an answer that starts with "Because....."

Thanks.

Because...they can't "understand" the Triune nature of God as He has revealed Himself to us...ergo it must not be true.

[Whispering Grace]

There is one God made up of three different persons.

That is the Trinity.

Phew....I thought we'd lost you there for a minute.

(You say they aren't separate, but three different persons would be inherently separate, would they not?)


Oneness Pentecostals do not believe in the co-existence of Father, Son, Holy Spirit. And they have to deny or twist a lot of Scripture to believe that.