What do you think about women Pastor's

[The Preacher]

Check out Melissa Scott's video feed and listen for an hour before you answer:

http://www.pastormelissascott.com/Looped_Video.asx

She has made me re evaluate my position

[Buckeye Doug]

Preacher,

It's 3:10 AM and I don't have an hour to listen, but Scripture is clear: the role of pastor is reserved to men.

I must "hit the hay" now. Have a good night/morning.

God bless.

[Levin]

First, a discussion of the two main positions:

1) Egalitarianism is the theology that both men and women were created equal before God, and thus they are able to hold the same positions in society and in the church. Male leadership is not considered normative or desirable; rather, “any subordination of women is contrary to God’s ideal, was caused by the fall of Adam and Eve, was reversed in the church through the sacrifice of Christ, but has been perpetuated by erroneous interpretations of scripture.”2 Christ is able to rescue the members of the church from this fallen state, so that men and women have equal standing and office in the church. “Teaching and leadership in the church and home rest in God’s bestowal of spiritual gifts upon individuals [sic] not upon male/female role distinctions.”3

At first glance, 1 Timothy 2:11-12 may look like a hindering thorn in the side of Egalitarian theology. However, the scholars who rest on this side of the issue claim that the command in this verse is not to be universally accepted. Paul is writing to a 1st century, Ephesian church, and his instructions are for the situation found there; they do not apply to the role of women in ministry today. This is argued by both grammatical analysis and by the study of the background situation of this letter.

When the Greek grammar of these two passages is examined, the Egalitarian argument is that the verb for “do not permit” is not universal but territorial. “The Holy Spirit…led Paul to use a construction that describes his practice without making it permanently binding.”4 This is true because of the tense of the verb that Paul used. “The ongoing sense of the present tense Greek verb points to a restriction specific to the current situation at Ephesus.”5 So, then, while it may appear in many English translations as a universal prohibitation, Paul was in fact not meaning to have his command followed in all churches. “Although, then, the prohibition may appear to be universally applicable to women, it is in fact meant for a specific group of women among the recipients of the letter.”6 The grammar also prevents a Complementarian view that women are only allowed to teach in private, but not in public. “The harmonistic distinction sometimes drawn between ‘private’ teaching (permitted) and ‘public’ teaching (forbidden) is surely anachronistic and in any case would be impossible to maintain consistently.”7

In verse 12, Paul speaks of women “having authority” over men. Because of its conjunction with the verb to teach, it cannot be argued that women cannot have authority over men in office. “It is, therefore, more likely that the verb [having authority] characterizes the nature of the teaching rather than the role of the women in church leadership in general.”8 What he is forbidding is a specific kind of teaching. “Paul would then be saying that the Ephesian women are to stop teaching with a view to gaining the upper hand over the men.”9 This phrase “having authority” is a command relating to the kind of teaching the women were doing.

Looking at the context around this passage also helps in its interpretation. An egalitarian will point to other passages where Paul speaks to women teaching to refute the idea that women are never allowed to teach. “Despite claims to the contrary, Paul cannot be categorically prohibiting women from teaching, for in a letter written about the same time, Paul commands the older women in the church to teach the younger(Titus 2:3-5).”10 Paul here has instructed women to teach, if only each other. While this does not cement the case, it prevents any idea of women doing no biblical teaching at all.

Cultural context also sheds light on the issue. The same submissive attitude of women “was also expected of male students studying under a rabbi, who, after ordination, would be both teaching and exercising authority.”11 The command for women to be submissive does not then prevent them from being able to teach later, after teaching. There is also an argument that Paul’s instruction for women not to teach was only a result of the culture. “It would have been counterproductive to allow women to teach and proclaim the apostolic witness to Christ.”12 However, now it would not be counterproductive, so women should be allowed to teach.

2) Complementarianism also affirms the equality of men and women before God. “Men and women have equal value to God, and should be seen by us as having absolutely equal value as persons, and equal value to the church.”13 In this view women can hold all positions in the church except for the positions of the pastor and the elder. Elders here are defined as the “highest governing authority within a local church.”14 Certain ruling and teaching functions are reserved for men, but all other roles and positions in the church are available to women.

The Complementarian position is grounded in 1 Timothy 2:11-12. These verses provide much of the foundation for this position. The Complementarian interpretation of these verses deal with the following: what subject matters women are allowed to teach and not teach, who women are allowed to teach and not teach, what being in “quietness and submission” means, and why the commands in this passage are not just local but are also universal.

In this passage it is clear that women are only restricted when it comes to matters of scripture, because of Paul’s relating teaching with being in the church. “The subject matter the women are forbidden to teach is scripture.”15 While these verses have been interpreted in the past to imply a woman’ complete silence in matters of teaching, this is simply not a correct interpretation. Elsewhere in scripture women are encouraged to instruct other women and children in matters of life and of scripture. However, he is restricting the teaching of scripture in a local church.

Paul’s instructions for the women to live in “quietness and submission” have been used to not let women speak in church or counteract the decisions of their husbands. However, it is clear that “the apostle was referring to a heart attitude and demeanor of ‘quietness’ rather than to absolute silence.”16 Another qualifier for women is that they are not to submit to any man, but “they were to submit themselves only to those pastors who taught sound doctrine.”17 Some have argued that women are free to teach as long as they teach under the oversight and authority of a man. However, George W, Night III writes, “Some have suggested that Paul is only ruling out teaching or exercise of authority apart from a man’s oversight, or just a certain type of authoritative teaching. The insistence here on silence seems to rule out all these solutions.”18

The specific restrictions put on women are twofold. “They are not to teach Christian doctrine to men and they are not to exercise authority directly over men in the church.”19 George W. Night III affirms that “it is thus the activity that he prohibits, not just the office.”20 It is clear for the Complementarian that women in the church are not allowed to teach men or hold any office of authority over them.

The teaching inappropriate for a woman is the teaching of men in settings or ways that dishonor the calling of men to bear the primary responsibility for teaching and leadership. This primary responsibility is to be carried by the pastors or elders. Therefore we think it is God’s will that only men bear the responsibility for this office.21

Teaching and authority are interpreted as connected in the text by Complementarians, so they are also connected in practice.
The defense of a Complementarian view of ministry also relies on this passage of scripture having a universal audience. Egalitarians have argued that this passage applies only to the situation at Ephesus, where education was failing among women. Grudem points out that Priscilla (who even instructed Apollos) is living in Ephesus; therefore, “Paul does not allow even…well-educated women at Ephesus to teach men in the public assembly of the church.”22 The reason for a universal scope relies on the verses that follow these verses. “These reasons [Adam and the Fall] are not limited to one situation in the church at Ephesus, but have application to manhood and womanhood generally.”23 The universality of the fall applies to everyone, and thus, so do the commands in this passage.

Footnotes:

1 I. Howard Marshall, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Pastoral Epistles (T & T Clark: Edinburgh, 1999), 456.

2 Walter L. Liefeld, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus: The NIV Application Commentary (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1999), 104.

3 Talbert-Wettler. “Feminism, Christian,” Evangelical Dictionary of Theology. 2nd ed. Ed. Walter A. Elwell (Grand Rapids, Baker, 2001), 448-451

4 Liefeld, NIV Application Commentary. 98.

5 Linda L. Belleville, “1 Timothy,” in The IVP Women’s Bible Commentary. Eds. Catherine Clark Kroeger and Mary J. Evans (Grand Rapids: IVP, 2002), 734-747.

6 Marshall, A Critical Commentary, 455.

7 Ibid, 455.

8 Ibid. 460.

9 Belleville, Women’s Bible Commentary. 734-747

10 Ibid.

11 Liefeld, NIV Application Commentary. 97.

12 Ibid.98.

13 Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Bible Doctrine (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1994), 937.

14 Ibid. 944.

15 Dorothy Kelly Patterson, and Rhonda Harrington Kelly. Women’s Evangelical Commentary: New Testament, (Nashville, Holman, 2006), 664.

16 Ibid.

17 Patterson, Women’s Evangelical Commentary. 664.

18 George W Knight III, The Pastoral Epistles: A Commentary on the Greek Text (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1992), 142.

19 Douglas Moo, “What Does it Mean Not to Teach or Have Authority Over Men?” Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, ed. John Piper and Wayne Grudem (Wheaton: Crossway, 2006), 177.

20 Knight, The Pastoral Epistles. 142.

21 John Piper and Wayne Grudem, eds., Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (Wheaton: Crossway, 2006), 64.

22 Grudem, Systematic Theology, 939.

23 Ibid. 938.

[Levin]

So, here's what I believe:

I. Key text

1 Timothy 2:11-12 reads “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” This passage is a very difficult passage to interpret. For one, the word “authority” translated from , occurs only 5 times in the entire New Testament, and only 82 times as a verb in 1st century Greek texts.1 Other words, such as “quietness” or “silent” also put many interpreters in opposition. Finally, determining whether or not Paul is simply addressing a cultural problem at 1st century Ephesus or is teaching the entire body of Christ is difficult.

1. Preferred View: I believe that the Complementarian view is correct based upon the following hermeneutical strategies applied to the problem:

1. 
   
   1. Literary Context
   
   

This passage falls in the book of 1 Timothy, which is part of the New Testament, was written by Paul, and is part of the Pastoral Epistles. It was written to Timothy, during his ministry at the city of Ephesus, and was written to instruct Timothy on how to run the church. The letter is very practical, so much so that “the whole letter could be read as instructions to a bishop about how to order and direct the life of a Christian congregation.”24

In this letter there are numerous references to the teaching of heresy. One of Paul’s main purposes in writing this letter is to instruct Timothy to hold on to the true teaching of scripture. In the words of Douglas Moo, Paul wrote the letter “because the church at Ephesus…is beset by false teaching.”25

For the near context of the passage, Paul in v. 8 instructs, “I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.” Paul connects this verse with the following verse: “Likewise, [I want] women [to pray], in modest dress.”26 He addresses the issues that the church was having during prayer or meeting times. The women’s problem with dress is directly connected with the men’s problems with quarrelling and anger.27 Paul then instructs women to dress with “good deeds,” and the passage in question contains some examples of what these good deeds do not look like.28

Directly following the passage, in vss. 13 and 14 Paul gives his justification for his instruction. In these verses it becomes clear that Paul’s instructions to the believers at Ephesus were not just meant for them in that time, but they apply to every believer and human being who has lived since then. These verses read, “For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.” In these verses Paul gives two reasons for his command. “They[women] are not to [teach] because of the order in which God created man and woman and because of how man and woman fell into sin.”29

In these verses Paul is referring to a situation that influences all mankind, for all men are descendents of Adam and Eve. “These reasons are not limited to one situation in the church at Ephesus, but have application to manhood and womanhood generally.”30 It has been suggested that Paul is only addressing women who have succumbed to false teaching in Ephesus, much in the same way that Eve succumbed to the temptation of Satan. However, the role that false teaching plays in this verse is much overplayed, for the position Paul takes on women in ministry is his customary position.31

1. 
   
   1. Historical Context
   
   

Paul wrote this letter to Timothy in c. 64 C.E. It was likely written to Timothy when he was in Ephesus, although this point is debated by scholars.32 The church at this time was beset by many heresies. “False teachers advocating asceticism based on the law are undermining the work of Paul and his companions in Ephesus.”33 However, Paul does not inform the reader a great deal about what kind of heresies these are or how they impact the church, though some commentators have suggested that the false teachers came from inside the church.34
Women in 1st century Ephesus were at and educational disadvantage. They “were less likely to be literate than men, were trained in philosophy far less often than men.”35 Letting women learn the law at all was radical, and so was letting women speak in their assemblies. In a Greek [public meeting], women were not allowed to speak at all.36 Keener suggests that Paul has two plans for the women, with the short term plan not letting them teach and the long term letting them learn.37

1. 
   
   1. Word Study
   
   

The first word to be studied in the passage is the word for “quietness.” This word can be translated “quietly,” “quiet,” “quiet fashion,” “fell silent,” and “quiet life.” The word conveys a feeling of stillness, rather than silence. It could also mean something similar to “peacableness.”38 It is obvious that some women were not learning this way in the churches in Ephesus. These women had chosen to follow the teachings of these false teachers.39 Paul would then be encouraging them to learn in a quiet, peaceful, way, instead of being quarrelsome.

The second word is “submission.” This word can be translated as “control,” “obedience,” or “subjection.” It is derived from a word that carries the connotation of rank with this subjection. In Titus 3:1, Paul uses the same word to remind his audience to “be subject to rulers.” Christians were to subject themselves to those who had legitimate authority over them.40

The third word to be studied is the word “teach.” In the New Testament times, the word teach did not just mean transferring information, but it also carried to connotation of authority to teach.41 This verb is used when Jesus taught, and Paul often uses this word to denote doctrinal instruction.42 However, this is the same verb used when women are instructed to teach younger women in Titus 2:3-4. Women, then, are not prohibited from teaching; they are only prohibited from teaching scripture to men.

The final word is the most difficult. Translated into English as “authority,” this Greek word is not found any other place in the New Testament or in the Septuagint at all. However, there are two other verbs in the NT similar in form to this word. They are translated “own accord,” and “self-willed,” respectively. While they shed some light on the issue, it is difficult to come to any firm conclusions regarding this word.43

1. 
   
   1. Scripture Interprets Scripture
   
   

While 1 Timothy 2:11-12 gives much information on the roles of men and women both in the church structure and in their roles in teaching, there are other scriptures that help clarify what Paul is saying. 1 Corinthians 14: 33b-36 is one such passage. It reads:


As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


It is clear that Paul is not in fact preventing women in the church from speaking, for he has just been writing how they are all to speak and prophecy.44 It should rather be interpreted in light of the surrounding context. Paul’s point is that the women may not participate in the weighing and interpreting of these prophecies.45 This is because “the careful weighing of prophecies falls under that magisterial function,”46 that is, the function of teaching and expositing scripture. Paul’s teachings are consistent between 1 Timothy 2:11-12 and 1 Corinthians 14.47

Other verses that support the idea of male authority are Ephesians 5:23 and 1 Corinthians 11:3. In these passages, men are revealed as the “head” of women (in a marriage context). In a New Testament context, the word for head can rightly be translated as “authority over.”48 This authority was present from creation in Genesis. From the beginning, the human race has been designated “man,” not “woman.”49 He created man as the head, and woman as the helper. So then, men have authority over their wives, mirroring the ideas of 1 Timothy 2:12.

1. 
   
   1. Progressive Revelation - Negatively
   
   

The role of women in God’s redemptive plan has certainly changed shape over the last 4,000 years; however, the doctrine of male authority and headship has not changed. There is a unity going through all of scripture conveying that the roles of women and the roles of men are indeed separate on some occasions and in reference to certain offices. The role of man as head of the wife and family and having authority over them can be found in the entire corpus of scripture.
In Genesis, the male was created first, and was created differently, from woman. God himself created humans as male and female. “It is God who wants men to be men and women to be women.”50 These distinctions between men and women were there before the fall; they are part of what makes humans humans. The fact that Adam was created first gives him authority; Paul uses the order of creation as the main reason why women are to be submissive to men in 1 Timothy 2.
This theme continues in the relationship of Abraham and Sarah. In 1 Peter 3, she is praised as a woman who submitted to her husband. Peter has just explained how a good wife is to act, and Sarah is shown as an example of this. Sarah “obeyed Abraham, calling him lord.” Her submission is described positively by Peter.

Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection did not in any way change this doctrine. Jesus, the Son of God, was male, not female. He also recognized role distinctions between sexes. “Nowhere is this issue seen more clearly than in Jesus’ selection of only men for the role of apostle.”51 He specifically chose men to communicate his gospel message to the masses, and to teach his words. In doing this he followed the clear distinctions of male and females already communicated from creation.

After Jesus’ resurrection, these role distinctions remained clear. Paul made it abundantly clear in 1 Timothy 2, Ephesians 5:23, and 1 Corinthians 14 that there are clear differences between men and women and that men are to have the authority. Peter also explains these ideas in 1 Peter 3. The authority of males and the differences in gender roles can be seen throughout scripture and the outworking of God’s redemptive plan.



Footnotes

1 I. Howard Marshall, A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Pastoral Epistles (T & T Clark: Edinburgh, 1999), 456.

24 Stephen B. Clark, Man and Woman in Christ, (Ann Arbor: Servant Books, 1980), 191.

25 Moo, “What Does it Mean?” 177.

26 Ibid. 178.

27 Clark, Man and Woman, 193.

28 Moo, “What Does it Mean?” 179.

29 Ibid, 176.

30 Grudem, Systematic Theology, 938.

31 Moo, “What Does it Mean?” 184.

32 E. E. Ellis, “Pastoral letters,” Dictionary of Paul and His Letters. Ed. Gerald F. Hawthorne, Ralph P. Martin, and Daniel G. Reid (Downer’s Grove: InterVarsity, 1993), 661.

33 Craig S. Keener, The IVP Bible Background Commentary: New Testament (Downer’s Grove: InterVarsity, 1993), 606.

34 Gordon Fee. New International Biblical Commentary: 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1988), 8.

35 Keener, IVP Commentary, 611.

36 D.A. Carson, “Silent in the Churches,” Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, ed. John Piper and Wayne Grudem (Wheaton: Crossway, 2006), 144.

37 Keener, IVP Commentary, 611.

38 Moo, “What Does it Mean?” 179.

39 Ibid.

40 Ibid.

41 Clark, Man and Woman, 195.

42 Moo, “What Does it Mean?” 181.

43 Ibid, 182.

44 Grudem, Systematic Theology, 939.

45 Carson, “Silent in the Churches,” 142.

46 Ibid, 143.

47 Grudem, Systematic Theology, 939.

48 Wayne Grudem. “The Meaning of Kephale,” Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, ed. John Piper and Wayne Grudem (Wheaton: Crossway, 2006), 144.

49 Raymond C. Ortlund, Jr, “Male-Female Equality and Male Headship,” Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, ed. John Piper and Wayne Grudem (Wheaton: Crossway, 2006), 88.

50 Ibid, 89.

51 James A. Borland, “Women in the Life and Teachings of Jesus, Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, ed. John Piper and Wayne Grudem (Wheaton: Crossway, 2006), 111.

[Chimon]

And the lesson we are learning is: Don't argue with Levin, he uses footnotes.

Honestly, I don't have time to read this right now, but it looks interesting.

[godsgirl]

A woman should do whatever God calls her to do.

[Whispering Grace]

A woman should do whatever God calls her to do.

Agreed. But God is not going to call a woman to do anything that goes against His Word.

[The Preacher]

Agreed. But God is not going to call a woman to do anything that goes against His Word.

Do you believe that Katherine Kuhlman went against God's word?
What about Mary Woodworth-Etter?
Aimie Semple Mcpherson?

[Chimon]

Do you believe that Katherine Kuhlman went against God's word?
What about Mary Woodworth-Etter?
Aimie Semple Mcpherson?

I think that what grace is saying is that determining what God's word says is important because we need to evaluate what we feel is our calling through the context of God's word.

[uric3]

Well a woman isn't qualified to be a Pastor.

According to 1st Tim 3:2 "A Pastor then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"

According to the qualifications listed in 1st Tim 3 and in Titus 1 a woman can not be a Pastor.

[Athanasius]

I don't see a problem with it...

[The Preacher]

Well a woman isn't qualified to be a Pastor.

According to 1st Tim 3:2 "A Pastor then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"

According to the qualifications listed in 1st Tim 3 and in Titus 1 a woman can not be a Pastor.

I used to take this to the extreme and demand silence from women. The Lord has since shown me differently.
The body of Christ has been robbed of 50% of it's gifts by holding to this view


I will post an article that does a comprehensive study of the greek words involved and show why this isn't necessarily true.
It will be finished by next week and it will be posted to this thread. Feel free to critique it.

[Whispering Grace]

I think that what grace is saying is that determining what God's word says is important because we need to evaluate what we feel is our calling through the context of God's word.

That is correct. God's Word trumps our feelings if they do not agree.

[petepet]

A woman should do whatever God calls her to do.

Proof positive that women should not be allowed to teach authoritatively !!!! While at first sight sounding spiritual this statement of godsgirl is full of pitfalls. It basically means that a woman can do whatever she feels like doing.

[godsgirl]

Proof positive that women should not be allowed to teach authoritatively !!!! While at first sight sounding spiritual this statement of godsgirl is full of pitfalls. It basically means that a woman can do whatever she feels like doing.

Why would you say my statement said something it did not?