There is no such thing.What do you think about women pastor's.
Veteran
There is no such thing.What do you think about women pastor's.
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." - Revelation 20:6
Praise His Holy Name!
Not according to God's Word.Originally Posted by superwoman8977
Show me in God's Word where it says women can be pastors.So yes women can be pastors...look at Paula White and Joyce Meyer and counteless other women and the lives they have touched.
Praise His Holy Name!
That is correct. God's Word trumps our feelings if they do not agree.
Citizen
**
One question for you Uriel: what is your ultimate arbiter of truth? If someone feels led by the Holy Spirit to do something that is against the Word of God then I would say this is not from the Spirit. How am I to know that the feeling and call I have on my heart is from the Holy Spirit? Do I rely on the way I feel or some mystical experience? What is the standard by which I judge this experience. Joseph Smith felt led by God to follow the truth. He was clearly not following the Spirit, no matter what he may have said or felt.
We as a community of faith need to make sure that we keep at highest priority the only perspicuous means of truth we have access to: God's Word. All revelation and promptings of the Holy Spirit need to be judged by what has been clearly revealed. If the Bible teaches that women should not be pastors or exegete scripture to men then I don't care what the Holy Spirit may or may not be telling you: God has already revealed His will and He will not contradict Himself. However, if the call of the Spirit follows clear Biblical teaching then go for it.
I don't think that we can allow women to be pastors (see my lengthy posts above) considering the teachings of Paul. However, I'm not going to go around condemning egalitarians. I attended a church with a female head pastor for about year, but decided that I could no longer attend due to the lack of Biblical leadership and strong Biblical teaching.
I think that there is great freedom for both men and women if we choose to follow our created glory and pursue those things that are our specific strengths and roles. I'm not going to die for this doctrine, but I think we're missing out on abundant life by going towards feminism and away from what the Bible teaches regarding women and men.
Here's a link to site where you can download a book (yep, and entire book for free) on the subject:
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceL...and_Womanhood/
In Christ Alone,
Levin
is a Benedictine Monk
I think that the Bible needs to be used but it is not the end of all truth because we have the Holy Spirit in us and of course any person that wants to be a pastor needs to be tested by other Godly people and leaders. If the Holy Spirit is telling these other people that this person should be a pastor then I think it is clear that they should be a pastor.
Again I am going to have to say that it is a moot point about what you personally believe about women in the role of pastor because we see Godly organizations and churches that have women pastors. We all can point to some churches that do not have Godly leaders, some of the churches will have men pastors some will have women pastors.
The thing is that we see Paul allowing women to have roles in ministry such as Pheobe holding the role of deacon. Which is not a pastor I know but it is close and in many traditions they are given almost the same power if not more over how the church is lead and governed. But that is beside the point.
If God cannot change his mind on things then he should have destoryed the city of Ninevah and he should have killed Adam and Eve right after they ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Yet he did not we have a loving and merciful God and I believe that he can allow things to change. So now that women can be just as if not more educated then men they should/could be able to hold the role of pastor, priest, presbyter whatever you call it.
Coffee Break
Proof positive that women should not be allowed to teach authoritatively !!!! While at first sight sounding spiritual this statement of godsgirl is full of pitfalls. It basically means that a woman can do whatever she feels like doing.
Newbie
Whoa Nelly! The Bible IS the end all... You can't have the Bible PLUS something. That's how cults (and bad theology) start.
As far as women being pastors, it is not Biblical. Women in teaching positions, sure. Pastors, not so much.
God has established a certain order: "Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." (1 Corinthians 11:3) If you have a woman as a pastor, then her husband, who may be a member of that congregation, is supposed to be under her authority, which screws everything up. If a woman is a pastor and she's supposed to be "the husband of but one wife," that leads us to a whole 'nother issue.
I think the Bible is pretty clear on this subject. Let's not let our thoughts, ideas and feelings go against what the Word says.
Coffee Break
We are specifically told what Phoebe's role was. It was to be a helper of the saints. We cannot just speculate about her role outside what we are told. The New Testament never anywhere approves of women teaching publicly except in giving family guidance to other women.
Gid never just changed His mind. His mind was changed because men changed making it possible for him to show mercy.
Coffee Break
Also, remember, there were women at the foot of the cross, long after all the menfolk had left.
Less qualified?
I think not.
I'm sorry but that is a totally fallaciuos argument. The women were in no danger. They could safely stay there. But the men could well have been arrested as dangerous revolutionaries. John was safe because he was related to the High Priest.
I used to take this to the extreme and demand silence from women. The Lord has since shown me differently.
The body of Christ has been robbed of 50% of it's gifts by holding to this view
I will post an article that does a comprehensive study of the greek words involved and show why this isn't necessarily true.
It will be finished by next week and it will be posted to this thread. Feel free to critique it.
is a Benedictine Monk
Do you deny that we have the Holy Spirit? Because I would rather have God telling me what is truth rather then a book, even a book inspired by God. You seem to be saying that we should have God plus the Bible. To me you are making the Bible more then God or adding to God by saying that we need the Bible. I believe that Christianity and true worship would have gone on even if the NT had never been composed, because we have the Holy Spirit. So to me the Bible is nice and I will pull doctrine from it but it is not the end all, the Holy Spirit has to be the end all and the last authority on things. Because Christianty survived for quite a while before all the books of the NT were composed and found to be authorative.
I would suggest a different understanding of the verse you provide. Head does not have to be leader it can also be source, like the head of a river is the source of the river. I believe this to be a much better understanding of the verse. Otherwise you are saying that God is more powerful then Christ and that gets into all sorts of heresy that I don't need to go into right now.
Again if you don't want to be a part of a church that has a woman in the role of pastor then don't I don't care but you cannot deny that women hold the role of pastor. They do even if you don't like it, they still do. And if the church fails or the woman fails at leading it then you know what we see that it was not from God. But if the church continues and brings more into it and it is clear that God is working in it then we see that it works. It is much like what Gamaliel said of the church. If it is not from God it will fail and if it is from God then you cannot fight against it.
And really I doubt that having a discussion about it on an internet forum is really going to change the churches that have women pastor's minds.
Senior Member
Why would you say my statement said something it did not?
Senior Member
The short answer is that all women should be Stepford wives.
Speak only when spoken to, and be obedient and cater to their husbands every whim
In your dreams ……………..Here is the real answer……..It’s a bit longer
We need to keep both Timothy and Corinthians within the context of which they were written.
I Timothy is a pastoral epistle written to the leadership in the church {note: when I use the word church I am speaking of the ekklesia the called of God, the body of Christ, not a structure.} Therefore when reading this book we must keep in mind who it is addressing, and why. We cannot take a few verses out of their context and make them a general application to all women within the body of Christ; that is just poor workmanship of rightly dividing the Word.
We must also keep in mind cultural times. Here in Timothy, as well as I Corinthians 14:34 {dealing with the wives of the prophets} you have cultural standards that come into play.
Timothy is dealing with the leadership in the church, and specifically these verses in question are dealing with wives of the men of God in the leadership positions responsible for teaching, and moving Gods word. We must read and understand these verses in that light, and not wretch them out of context to degrade women as some groups have done.
The whole context dictates that the men (husbands) were men of God with ministries as seen in 3:1 which is the more immediate context of these verses; ultimately it comes down to respect of the Word.
The following is a break-down of verses 9-15 I will post on I Corinthians separately
I Timothy 2:9-15
I Timothy 2:9 In like manner or “likewise”. You have to go back to verse 8 to find out what it’s referring to. Talking about husbands who were men of God praying everyplace “lifting up holy hands” is a Figure of speech meaning “To have done all that can be done” speaking of the men of God praying in the previous verses. It now shifts to the women in doing all they can do.
The word also is not in any critical Greek text.
That women (Gr) gunê = wives – henceforth, the word woman is translated wives
adorn themselves (Gr) kosmeo it is the word transliterated over into our English as cosmos” It means orderly universe. To polish, or to beautifully cut out to carve in all perfection. Orderly like the stars that are set in their coarse, and like the paths of the seas, no collision. Its like all of God’s creation; that’s this word “adorn.”
{Other usages of kosmeo Luke 21:5, Titus 2:10, I Peter 3:3-5}
in modest apparel (Gr) kosmias the same root word as adorn.
Women are to adorn themselves adorningly {that’s probably not a real word} meaning well polished beautifully groomed, is the essence of what God is saying. It sets the woman with the man of God in all of its beauty and all of its greatness.
{I Timothy 3: 2 “of good behaviour” is the same word as kosmios}
With shamefacedness (Gr) aidôs = an inner grace. Manifesting the inner beauty of Christ in you, in your walk, your talk, and your manner of dress. One who recoils at anything unseemly, immoral or impure.
Sobriety ( Gr) sôphrosunê is self-restraint, habitual inner self-governing it’s the renewed mind dignified walk. Being an example in your walk because that man of God is your man, and you by your actions show the rest of the women in the household of God how they are to act or walk.
not – is conditional …….due to culture…. the walk of a woman would vary.
broided hair(Gr) plegma hair-doo or gold, or pearls, or costly array
One example of this refers women who would have their hair put in the form of the temple, a horn or a tube that would go around the head made of gold studded with precious jewels. This would tie underneath the chin and over the top of the hair. At the back they would have braided cords of silk that would drop to the back of the knees, and at the bottom of those would be tassels of red silk, loaded with lead so the hair style would be tightened under the chin. ouch!
Verse 10
But – Sets in contrast that which was preceding {broided hair, etc}
which becoumeth women – wives of the men of God
professing(Gr) epaggellomai To announce ones self
godliness = Wives showing themselves reverently godly, that is how you announce yourself. Wives are attractively dressed, sharp, cultured, but not to the end that you’re a knock out, or drawing attention to yourself through your costly array.
with good works – This Greek preposition indicates “with” as all the way through, not just the manner of dress, but the actions in your life. Doing what has just been stated, that’s “the good works.”
Verse 11
Let the woman = wife of the man of God.
learn = to be informed, to understand to learn by study and observation.
in silence (Gr) hesuchia means – inner awareness, a quietness, tranquillity. It’s just the opposite of vociferous.
There is a time for a person to keep quiet and a time to speak. The context here is talking about “wives of the men of God”. With that inner awareness you will know when that time and palace is.
with all subjection = submission by loving obedience.
When the woman decided to marry the man she made a decision that the man would be the head of her, like God would be the head of the man. The wife has to become aware of the inner awareness of her man, just as the man is with God.
Verse 12
but is the word “and”
i suffer (Gr) epitrepo means to direct, or instruct
not a woman = wives
to teach (Gr) didaske to debate. We get our word teacher from this Greek word. It’s used in the academic realm of a didactic coarse [a teaching coarse] But here is the beauty of this scripture. In our teaching methods there is no debate, but in the old Hebrew or the synagogue operation, anytime a teacher teaches, anybody who wants to get up and question him can do so. {God says - I instruct the wife not to debate in public with her man of God.} You can obviously see where this would belittle the man, showing great disrespect to the man of God, and the Word of God
nor = and not {emphatic}
to usurp authority over = to exercise power over, domineer.
the man = husband
but to be in silence – same word as in verse 11. the inner awareness.
Verse 13
For Adam was first formed then Eve – Adam was given authority and Eve was given to Adam as a companion. This doesn’t degrade the woman but rather just puts it in the order, which God formed, made, and created us.
Verse 14
And Adam was not deceived
But the woman {wife} being deceived = taken in, literally means baited by false statements which the adversary laid on her in Genesis. God’s just saying, look things haven’t changed, the adversary is still trying to pull the same stunts. That is why that word hesuchia {that inner awareness} is so vitally important in a woman’s walk, so that the woman is not trying to usurp authority over the man.
was in the
transgression – stepping aside from doing right. Even though Adam wasn’t deceived, it was because she was his companion, and when she was baited he went down to her level. This will generally always be true with a man.
Verse 15
Notwithstanding = but
She shall be saved (Gr) sozo = made whole, made complete,
in = through
childbearing On the surface it looks like childbearing is a curse, but actually she {the wife} shall be made complete, whole, through childbearing.
{Guys will not understand that, but women will}
If they - The husband and wife.
Continue in en - governs only the dative case and denotes being or remaining within, with the primary idea of rest and continuance.
Faith = (Gr) pistis - noun = the divinely implanted principle. It is one of the fruits of the spirit. This particular form is not the action of believing, but the firm persuasion or conviction of what we hear from God’s word.
And charity = (Gr) agapê We all know this as being the love of God, but this love goes so much further than that which was known in the OT. It’s a spontaneous love irrespective of rights. Its love in it’s fullest conceivable form, and beyond.
And holiness - as becoming to the husband and wife as devoted to God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Both the roll of the Man and the Woman should be kept in the perspective of the Word. {marriage relationship, and leadership relationship}
As for Women teaching in the Church, I find nothing in the Word that specifically disallows that; again kept within the perspective and boundaries of written Word
Excellent post, God's girl. I have a more throughly detailed defense that a friend and I are collaborating on. You will find it interesting.
I just want to say that this issue isn't one of "oneupmanship" It's critical to the body of Christ. Did anyone watch some of Melissa Scott's teaching? If so,can you honestly evaluate her as unqualified or is this opinion the result of a biased perspective filtered through a paradigm?
Praise His Holy Name!
I guess I didn't understand (from her comment) how the women sticking around made them eligible for a position God did not ordain for them.
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