Does God always get what he wants?

[legoman]

Seems more like you twisting my words into something I didn't state. You seem to view God's sovereign will as Him forcing something to happen. In other words, above you are twisting my words to state the following . . .

God's sovereign will (force) is that people will go against His will.

Your definition of God's sovereignty is not in agreement with mine. I do not believe God in His sovereignty is forcing anything. I believe in His sovereignty He is setting things up in a way where we have a choice. So, in other words, in His sovereignty He is forcing us to choose . . . not forcing us to choose in a particular way or another. So, your statement is not stating the same thing as mine.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you were saying what I said! Please don't ever assume that. It is not my intent to twist anyone's words. I was just responding to your statement: "Anyone ever thought that God not always getting His way IS Him getting His way"

I will try to be more careful when responding if you can be more careful when editing my posts...

I see it as God planned everything to happen, even the stuff that appears to be going against his will. He sets us up against his will so he can then humble us and then have mercy on us, all for his Glory (Romans 11:32).

So now I shall attempt to repost my thoughts on God's plan vs. God's goal since it was accidently deleted in post #14.

There is some confusion in the phrase "God's will" as it can be used in 2 different ways. It can be used to mean God's plan, and it can also be used to mean God's ultimate goal. God uses his plan to achieve his goal. Sometimes it may appear they are contrary.

A good example is the existence of evil. I don't think anyone could disagree that God's ultimate goal includes the elimination of evil. But his plan requires that evil exist for a time, so that goodness can be fully understood. But eventually the evil will be destroyed. It is all part of God's will - the plan and the ultimate goal.

The plan is being executed exactly (Isaiah 46:10-11) and will be successful in reaching the goal. God will get what he wants.

[legoman]

God always does what He wants but people don't always do what He wants them to do. Which explains why it grieved Him that He made mankind in Noah's day and also why He condemns people for deciding not to believe in Christ.

You can't brush aside that passage so easily.

Matthew 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Clearly, Jesus is saying here what He would have done if only they had been willing to accept Him. Clearly, it was their choice to reject Him (not all of them, but most) and was not what He wanted them to do. If this was His plan all along then it makes no sense that He got so angry with them and was saddened by their rebellion.

We can see that in this passage as well:

Luke 19
41And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

They were solely held responsible for not recognizing the time of their visitation. It wasn't because He wanted them to not recognize that time and that He was their Messiah. It was due to their willful refusal to recognize the time of their visitation and their Messiah.

Eric,

I have answered this before in the "God does not change thread".
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php?t=138943&page=3

Here is a synopsis:

I don't think this verse and the other verses like it imply that God changes, or that God changed his plan, or that God does not get what he wants. God can indeed be sorry or sad or grieving as described in these verses.

God is sorry, or "repents" in the way a parent is sorry when the parent knows he must discipline a child. The discipline must happen, and it may be temporarily unpleasant, but it is for the best in the long run. And the discipline is not wrong, it is necessary.

In verses like Luke 19 and Matthew 23 God already knows what they will do in this situation. He knows the outcome, so his plan has taken that into account. His plan does not need to change at all, as this was all part of his plan from the beginning. It doesn't mean he can't feel sorry though at the same time.

That's how I see God's plan. There are times of joy and times of sadness. Times of goodness and times of evil. All are necessary to achieve God's unchanging plan.

1 Cor 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

Jeremiah 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
it is not for man to direct his steps.

If a mere man can change God's mind, how can verses such as Isaiah 46:10 be true? If God changes his plan, because of something man did, then we have a problem. God is no longer sovereign. God is no longer all-knowing. His original plan needed to be changed, therefore it was in error. God would be admitting he made a mistake if he were to change his mind. This cannot be.

Its easy to understand what is happening here when you realize God really is operating all according to his plan.

Legoman

[Firstfruits]

Well I guess the question to be asked really is salvation done by man's choice or effort, or through God's efforts/mercy upon man?

My answer would be God's mercy. Now that doesn't mean that a person can't all and out reject God willing himself to be saved. I'm sure someone could say "no" and God would allow the man to do as he wishes within the confines of the freedom that he allows within himself. But remember as stated by the Apostle Paul...though everything is permissible within the freedom that comes from God, not everything is beneficial. We will all be held accountable for what we have done while we are here - whether we call ourselves freemen/slaves/servant/king/etc/etc.

God bless in Christ,

Stephen

So if a brother or sister that has erred from the truth is not restored, will they be lost?

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Firstfruits

[Friend of I AM]

So if a brother or sister that has erred from the truth is not restored, will they be lost?

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Firstfruits

I think restore in this case is meant as gently informing one of a fault...as oppossed to meaning that we ourselves are making any final judgements on who God has mercy on. I think one should ideally try to inform another in meekness when they see someone doing something they ought not to be doing. Paul mentions all of this in his epistles, as well as mentions that we will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ at some point.

[Friend of I AM]

This doesn't seem involuntary to me . . .

Romans 6:15-16
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

If I "present" myself to something or someone . . . they are not forcing me to do it. I'm making the decision on my own.

You are making a choice based on God's abilities/sovereignty, not your own. Think of it this way. Can you make a decision that goes against the predifined limited criteria/information God has given you at any given time? The answer to this is "no."

Thus God does indeed move an individual in a particular direction, as he is working through all things. To believe that one has no one guiding them in making a decision is making the assumption that one has foreknowledge/sovereignty outside of God himself.

Now based on the knowledge God has given us in any given circumstance, we have the ability to make a "limited" choice within the confines of his sovereignty.

Remember the wide path, and the narrow path. We truly do need God to show us the right path that leads to his righteousnous and salvation.

God bless in Christ,

Stephen