Does God always get what he wants?

[legoman]

# Matthew 23:37
[ Jesus Laments over Jerusalem ] “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Huh. Sure sounds like God wanted something... but the people were not willing, and so He did not.

Thoughts on that?

Hi Steve,

I think that's a case of God's plan (his will) temporarily going in a different direction than his ultimate goal (also his will).

God works in strange ways.

Legoman

[Steve M]

Hi Steve,

I think that's a case of God's plan (his will) temporarily going in a different direction than his ultimate goal (also his will).

God works in strange ways.

Legoman

The reason He gives, however, is not 'but it doesn't fit the ultimate plan.' It's 'but you were not willing.'

[Emanate]

No, I completely disagree. You're more talking about the emotional side of love. We are inspired to love, but there is always a willful element to love.

I agree. True love is not a feeling, it is a commitment.

[VerticalReality]

Hi VR,

I think you have the right idea, but free will doesn't enter into it.

God's sovereign will is that people will go against his will.

Does that make sense? Seems like a contradiction doesn't it?

Seems more like you twisting my words into something I didn't state. You seem to view God's sovereign will as Him forcing something to happen. In other words, above you are twisting my words to state the following . . .

God's sovereign will (force) is that people will go against His will.

Your definition of God's sovereignty is not in agreement with mine. I do not believe God in His sovereignty is forcing anything. I believe in His sovereignty He is setting things up in a way where we have a choice. So, in other words, in His sovereignty He is forcing us to choose . . . not forcing us to choose in a particular way or another. So, your statement is not stating the same thing as mine.

[VerticalReality]

I want to apologize also, legoman. When I tried to respond to your post I clicked the edit button rather than the quote button by mistake, so I accidently edited your post. I assure you it wasn't intended.

[John146]

Of course God has the ability to accomplish anything He wants. It's a question of WHAT He wants. Does God want robots who are simply programmed to follow Him? Or does He want people to choose Him. I think the latter is clearly true. And so while God could force people to be His, He does not WANT to do it that way. The best way for Him to get what He wants (restored relationships with human beings) is to give them a choice in the matter. Thus, God has sovereignly designated some control to humanity.

I agree. Well said.

[John146]

Hi Steve,

I think that's a case of God's plan (his will) temporarily going in a different direction than his ultimate goal (also his will).

God works in strange ways.

Legoman

You can't brush aside that passage so easily.

Matthew 23
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Clearly, Jesus is saying here what He would have done if only they had been willing to accept Him. Clearly, it was their choice to reject Him (not all of them, but most) and was not what He wanted them to do. If this was His plan all along then it makes no sense that He got so angry with them and was saddened by their rebellion.

We can see that in this passage as well:

Luke 19
41And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
43For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
44And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

They were solely held responsible for not recognizing the time of their visitation. It wasn't because He wanted them to not recognize that time and that He was their Messiah. It was due to their willful refusal to recognize the time of their visitation and their Messiah.

[Friend of I AM]

So this is not in contradiction with the verses you stated since God's desire (for choice to be involved) still reigned. This also doesn't contradict God's sovereignty b/c sovereignty is not diminished by delegation. God is still the one in charge of setting the rules. He has chosen, sovereignly, to include choice.

It's not enough to say that choice is solely up to man, since hardly anybody argues that. Arminian theology says that right choice is inspired by God's grace while still maintaining truly personal response.

God bless,
matthew

Time to stir things up a bit..

What about what Paul mentions us as being..slaves to righteousnous or slaves to sin..how does one's personal "free will" response play into this?

Another follow up question to this question? How does one know the difference between a 'free will' choice that God has given them to make, and a 'free will" choice that God is making for them..if God is the only one who is completely free?

Interested in getting some responses regarding these...

[Firstfruits]

Time to stir things up a bit..

What about what Paul mentions us as being..slaves to righteousnous or slaves to sin..how does one's personal "free will" response play into this?

Another follow up question to this question? How does one know the difference between a 'free will' choice that God has given them to make, and a 'free will" choice that God is making for them..if God is the only one who is completely free?

Interested in getting some responses regarding these...

Do we have a choice as to whom we yield?

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

If God forces us to do his will, does that mean that we can never sin, because we are slaves to Gods will?

Firstfruits

[VerticalReality]

Time to stir things up a bit..

What about what Paul mentions us as being..slaves to righteousnous or slaves to sin..how does one's personal "free will" response play into this?

Another follow up question to this question? How does one know the difference between a 'free will' choice that God has given them to make, and a 'free will" choice that God is making for them..if God is the only one who is completely free?

Interested in getting some responses regarding these...

This doesn't seem involuntary to me . . .

Romans 6:15-16
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

If I "present" myself to something or someone . . . they are not forcing me to do it. I'm making the decision on my own.

[Friend of I AM]

Do we have a choice as to whom we yield?

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

If God forces us to do his will, does that mean that we can never sin, because we are slaves to Gods will?

Firstfruits

I'm going to repeat what I typed in the other thread where you asked similar questions.

...I think the underlying question you are asking is "what makes someone free to choose." The only logical answer to this question is "God." Thus at some point, we do indeed have to acknowledge within our walks that we ourselves are kind of limited in what we can do when making the right choices(and in our faith) - being that we are limited beings, who possess limited knowledge and intelligence. Thus this is when I believe God's mercy comes into play. David acknowledges this frequently in his psalms, as does the Apostle Paul within his epistles.

Remember Paul also states within his epistles that we can do nothing "against" the truth, but we can only do things for the truth..which again demonstrates God's sovereignty, control, and guidance over all things that occur within our lives.

Remember Paul also states within his epistles that "all things are permissable to me" but not all things are "beneficial" to me. Thus, the ability to choose regarding all facets of our lives will always come from God and not of ourselves.

I think a real interesting question to add to this discussion would be, at what point does God bring one into complete submission to doing what is good, as oppossed to allowing them to make a choice that is evil. This is a gray area, which really is kind of above any of our rationale or understanding I guess. My thought would be that one should do as Christ suggests, pray for God not to lead them into temptation, but instead deliver them from evil.

God bless,

Stephen

[Firstfruits]

I'm going to repeat what I typed in the other thread where you asked similar questions.



Remember Paul also states within his epistles that we can do nothing "against" the truth, but we can only do things for the truth..which again demonstrates God's sovereignty, control, and guidance over all things that occur within our lives.

Remember Paul also states within his epistles that "all things are permissable to me" but not all things are "beneficial" to me. Thus, the ability to choose regarding all facets of our lives will always come from God and not of ourselves.

I think a real interesting question to add to this discussion would be, at what point does God bring one into complete submission to doing what is good, as oppossed to allowing them to make a choice that is evil. This is a gray area, which really is kind of above any of our rationale or understanding I guess. My thought would be that one should do as Christ suggests, pray for God not to lead them into temptation, but instead deliver them from evil.

God bless,

Stephen

According to the following we can err from the truth;

Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Can we restore someone that was not saved in the first place?

Firstfruits

[Friend of I AM]

According to the following we can err from the truth;

Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Can we restore someone that was not saved in the first place?

Firstfruits

Well I guess the question to be asked really is salvation done by man's choice or effort, or through God's efforts/mercy upon man?

My answer would be God's mercy. Now that doesn't mean that a person can't all and out reject God willing himself to be saved. I'm sure someone could say "no" and God would allow the man to do as he wishes within the confines of the freedom that he allows within himself. But remember as stated by the Apostle Paul...though everything is permissible within the freedom that comes from God, not everything is beneficial. We will all be held accountable for what we have done while we are here - whether we call ourselves freemen/slaves/servant/king/etc/etc.

God bless in Christ,

Stephen

[John146]

Here you have to be careful. If this statement is true: "God always gets what he wants", then it is a contradiction that we humans could do something that God does not want.

So do you really think God always gets what he wants?

Legoman

God always does what He wants but people don't always do what He wants them to do. Which explains why it grieved Him that He made mankind in Noah's day and also why He condemns people for deciding not to believe in Christ.

[RogerW]

# Matthew 23:37
[ Jesus Laments over Jerusalem ] “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

Huh. Sure sounds like God wanted something... but the people were not willing, and so He did not.

Thoughts on that?

Greetings Steve

These Jews are no different than any other man born of Adam. None are willing, unless God enables them. If it is God Who gives us ability to come to Christ for life, how can we claim we chose Him of our own free will? Christ is more than willing, but no man, fallen in Adam, born spiritually dead in trespasses and sins is willing of his/her own free will to come to Christ for life.

Many Blessings,
RW