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Thread: Is sin really worse now then in the disciples time?

  1. #1
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    Is sin really worse now then in the disciples time?

    Lets do a study on this. I hear so many convinced that one of the reasons the end is near is because sin is so rampant...but what are they comparing it too? Their own short life time? How do you know its worse then in the past? I have heard this all my life and I also believed it was true until I started studying history! I have to say I was pretty shocked at how bad the past was...especially in the days when the very first Christian churches were being founded.

    So all you study buffs add your own information and lets compare the past to the present and see if the claim sin is worse now then before really holds up or not.

    Remember the Jews were being ruled over by a pagan nation in Paul's time..Rome. They worshiped many idols and sexual sin was rampant.

    When Paul wrote this following passage it was because they were surrounded by people engaged in this type of activity:

    1 Corinthians 6

    9 Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers--none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God.


    David Guzik's Commentaries on the Bible

    d. Nor homosexuals: Since this is such a clear condemnation of homosexuality, those who would like to justify the practice say Paul is speaking of homosexual prostitution, not a "loving, caring homosexual relationship." But taken in context, there is no doubt God is speaking of homosexual acts of all kinds with the words malakoi (homosexuals, which literally refers to male prostitutes) and arsenokoitai (sodomites, a generic term for all homosexual practice).

    i. Paul was not writing in or of a "homophobic" culture. Homosexuality was rampant in Paul's culture; fourteen out of the first fifteen Roman emperors were bisexual or homosexual. At the very time Paul was writing, Nero was emperor. He had taken a boy named Sporus and had him castrated. He then married him (with a full ceremony), brought him to the palace with a great procession, and made the boy his "wife." Later, Nero lived with another man, and Nero was declared to be the other man's "wife."

    ii. In this list of sins, homosexuality (not some "special" version of homosexuality) is described. But it is described right along with other sins, many of which those who so strongly denounce homosexuals are themselves guilty of. Can fornicators or adulterers or the covetous or drunkards rightly condemn homosexuals? Of course not.

    iii. Christians err when they excuse homosexuality, and deny that it is sin. But they also err just as badly when they single it out as a sin God is uniquely angry with.
    ******************************
    The pagan temples had what were called temple prostitutes back then...male, female and yes young boys. It wasn't against the law by any means. People walking down the road saw in the open all sorts of sexual sins. At least when we see it on TV we can turn the TV off! And yes in some urban areas you can see prostitutes standing on the streets but you don't see the actual sexual acts generally out in the open. Though I have heard of some pretty shocking things seen during gay pride parades or Mardi Gras happening out in the open. Those events can be avoided though...unlike in Paul's time.

    While we don't have to endure seeing such things now, we are dealing with homosexuals being legally married in more and more states...but is this really worse then what the disciples experienced?

    Next the subject of abortion. Agree it horrible...and while in Paul's day they weren't capable (that I know of anyway) of medical doctor preforming abortions they did kill babies on a very large scale. In the OT many of the pagan nations would sacrifice their babies and children to their god Baal and other pagan god by throwing them alive in fire!

    http://www.bible-history.com/backd2/...sacrifice.html

    2 Kings 3:26-27 "And when the king of Moab saw that the battle was too fierce for him, he took with him seven hundred men who drew swords, to break through to the king of Edom, but they could not. Then he took his eldest son who would have reigned in his place, and offered him as a burnt offering upon the wall." (NKJ)

    Offering human sacrifices was a very ancient custom, and has been practiced at different times and among many nations, since the most ancient of times. Among the list of nations were the Ethiopians, the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Phoenicians, the Canaanites, the Scythians, the Egyptians, the Chinese, the Persians, the Indians, the Gauls, the Carthaginians, the Britons, the Arabians, the Romans, and many more, including the Africans and peoples of the Americas.

    These sacrifices were offered in many different ways. Most were slaughtered under the knife; some were burned; some were drowned; some were buried alive, some were pushed down the stairs of a massive pyramid temple. In many ancient cultures parents would sacrifice their own children.

    The northern kingdom of Israel followed the practices of the surrounding nations throughout all of their years, but whether or not human sacrifice was customary among them or any of the early Israelites there is no proof. Yahweh condemned such practices. The sacrifice of the firstborn was indeed customary with the people of Canaan. In times of of trouble they offered their best and dearest to the gods, 'the fruit of their body for the sin of their soul' (Mic 6:7).

    The Old Testament reveals that Ahaz 'made his son to pass through the fire,' this is the incident in Scripture that made the valley of Tophet an abomination as recorded in Jer 7:31-32:

    "And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart. Therefore behold, the days are coming," says the LORD, "when it will no more be called Tophet, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Tophet until there is no room."

    continued.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

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    Slavery:

    When we go downtown do any of us see people standing a block being auctioned to the highest bidder?

    Most of you are able to live someplace that has computers, don't see that...those not able to have computers...lights, running water, etc, may have seen such things even now! And some here in American may be old enough to remember such things in the past! But the point is, its not happening now in first world nations.

    We know slavery was common in bibical times and America went through a civil war over slavery. But slavery wasn't something new to even America by any means. Its a practices that dates back as far as the history of men. There were many different types of slaves then and now. Back in the OT a person may become a slave willingly by becoming in debt and this was the only way to pay it off. That is still common today too in third world counties. Only those poor souls never get the debt paid off! People captured in wars were often taken as slaves also. While in most first world nations slavery is now illegal its still happening even here in the US and other nations only the slaves are hidden away and this includes children brought in from other countries and force to be house keepers and even sex slaves.

    In the news last year several rich families here in the states were arrested for having slaves. They promise a better life to those living in poor countries then bring them back here and make them prisoners. These children aren't allowed outside let alone go to school.

    Doctor Sentenced For Having 'Personal Slave'

    BALTIMORE -- A Maryland woman will spend more than seven years in prison for literally treating a 14-year-old Nigerian girl as her own personal slave.

    A federal judge handed down the sentence against Dr. Adabobi Udeozor. Federal prosecutors said Udeozor, 46, lured the girl to the United States on the promise of giving her a home, baby-sitting money, and an education.

    Instead, prosecutors said she and her husband forced the teen to care for their six children, beat her and threatened her with arrest.


    Slavery is still pretty bad in many parts of the world. While we could say its obviously better here in the US compared to the past...world wide it really doesn't seem to have improved:

    http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/e...n.trafficking/

    Sex slavery: The growing trade

    The project also claims that Asian women are sold to brothels in North America for $16,000 each.

    Almost 200,000 girls from Nepal, many of them under the age of 14, are working as sex slaves in India.

    An estimated 10,000 women from the former Soviet Union have been forced into prostitution in Israel.

    The Thai government reports that 60,000 Thai children have been sold into prostitution.

    As many as 10,000 children aged between six and 14 are virtually enslaved in brothels in Sri Lanka.

    Some 20,000 women and children from Burma have been forced into prostitution in Thailand.

    The project also says that of 155 cases of forced prostitution brought before the courts in The Netherlands, only four resulted in convictions of the traffickers.

    The Protection Project is compiling a database on laws on trafficking, forced prostitution, slavery and debt bondage in 190 independent states and 63 dependencies.

    http://www.time.com/time/archive/pre...186558,00.html
    Stolen Away
    As criminal gangs run amuck in Iraq, hundreds of girls have gone missing. Are they being sold for sex?
    By BRIAN BENNETT/BAGHDAD

    http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=11791

    Sex Slave Jihad

    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=26296
    DISPATCH FROM SOUTHEAST ASIA
    Sex-slave trade flourishes in Thailand
    'I am but one brick in that long … wall of female exploitation and misery'


    Please pray for these women and children!

    On this subject of slavery...with the information I have anyway, I would say things weren't worse but they certainly aren't better. The number of slaves has probably increased though simply because the world population has increased.

    I'll keep adding things as I think of them. Add your own too.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

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    Good post moonglow. 6,000 years of WORLD history and people tend to make everything about THEIR short lifetime and the United States. I don't want people to get the wrong idea about me. I believe Christ could return at any moment, but I don't believe it is imminent based on US history or some bad people doing bad things.

  4. #4
    cwb Guest
    I do not believe sin is worse now than in the disciples time. However I do believe sinners have better technology to carry out their lawless deeds such as radical Islamists have the ability to obtain weapons of mass destruction, governments have the ability to use rfid technology to track and control its people, and corporations have the ability to destroy the environment.

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    The sin of humanity is definitely no greater or less than at any time in history. Media saturation and it's fascination with bad stories certainly leads to an apparent feeling of an increase.
    It is only the cynic who claims “to speak the truth” at all times and in all places to all men in the same way, but who, in fact, displays nothing but a lifeless image of the truth… He dons the halo of the fanatical devotee of truth who can make no allowance for human weaknesses; but, in fact, he is destroying the living truth between men. He wounds shame, desecrates mystery, breaks confidence, betrays the community in which he lives, and laughs arrogantly at the devastation he has wrought and at the human weakness which “cannot bear the truth”. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in Ethics.


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    False teachings in churches:

    Look at this it way for a quick and easy answer..if it wasn't happening in the early churches then how could we refer to scriptures to see if the churches today are teaching false things?

    Jesus, Paul and many others in the bible were constantly dealing with false teachings! Jesus dealt with the Jewish leaders of His time...Paul deal with the early first Christian churches and false teachings on a near constant basis. This is nothing new!

    In Matthew 23 Jesus lays into the Jewish religious leaders big time! Talk about some strong words!

    13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in. 14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.

    15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

    16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’


    Can this be applied to some of our churches now? Oh sure it can! To the leaders of those churches...

    And look at what Paul was dealing with:

    1 Corinthians 5
    Immorality Defiles the Church
    1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you.


    David Guzik's Commentaries on the Bible


    1. (1) The sin of an unnamed Christian in Corinth.

    It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles; that a man has his father's wife!

    a. The term sexually immoral is the ancient Greek word porneia; it broadly refers to all types of sexual activity outside of marriage (including homosexuality).

    i. Originally, porneia just referred to going to prostitutes; but before New Testament times, the Jewish community used the word to refer to any kind of extramarital sex, including homosexuality. This is its sense in the New Testament.

    ii. Commentators on the word porneia: "the Scripture by this word comprehends all species of unlawful mixtures." (Poole) "must be understood in its utmost latitude of meaning, as implying all kinds of impurity." (Clarke)

    iii. Porneia so often appears first in New Testament "sin lists" but not because the first Christians had a lot of "hang ups" about sex. Instead, it is because the area of sex was one of the most dramatic places where the ethics of Greek culture clashed with the ethics of Jesus. Sexual immorality was an accepted fact of life for the common person in Greek culture, but it was not to be so among the followers of Jesus.

    b. That a man has his father's wife: Apparently, someone was having an on-going sexual relationship (either as married or living together) with his stepmother (his father's wife). The woman involved must not be a Christian, for she isn't even addressed.

    i. The verb to have is a euphemism for an enduring sexual relationship, not just a passing fancy or a "one night stand."

    c. And such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles: Paul understood that this kind of incestuous relationship would be considered taboo even among the pagans of their culture, yet the Corinthian Christians seem accepting of this behavior.

    i. The ancient Roman writer and statesman Cicero said this type of incest was an incredible crime and practically unheard of. Truly, it was not even named among the Gentiles!

    ii. It should have been enough that this is declared sin by the Bible (Leviticus 18:8; Deuteronomy 22:30 and 27:20); it should have been enough that the worldly culture itself considered it sin. But the Corinthian Christians didn't seem bothered by it at all!
    *************************
    Paul had a terrible time with the Corinthians because they had been raised around sexually immoral behavior and truly saw nothing wrong with it! We see him addressing their behavior time and time again! They saw nothing wrong with this man having a sexual relationship with his own step mother and were filled with 'spiritual pride'.

    We complain about how people in church who have committed adultery or are actively involved in adultery are allowed to stay in church...and yes that needs to be addressed for sure! But we carry on as if this or nothing like it has ever happened before and here Paul was dealing with what was considered then to be incest.

    Scriptures addresses the other concerns we see happening in many churches today...the love of money being on the top list, and many false teachings....Jesus warns us over and over of false prophets and false teachers...and Paul, Peter and John were all dealing with the exact same problems then or they wouldn't have written about them in the first place. They give real life examples such as this one as to what was happening and how they dealt with them. Even Paul and Peter had a major disagreement on some teaching at one point. This also is nothing new for leader to not agree on this and cause a major division among the members.

    Now what we don't see happening (unless someone knows of some scriptures I don't) is active homosexuals (or those active in ANY sin) being allowed to be pastors of a church! I think this may actually be a new thing and a very bad thing...and I know it was causing a huge uproar in many churches and caused alot of break up in churches. So this may be one area where we can actual says things have gotten worse....(unless someone knows something I don't on this).

    If you go further forward in the past (back to the future..lol) to the Dark Ages ...yes some pretty horrible things were happening then in the Christian religion...mostly involving the Catholic church but then the Protestant don't have a totally clean slate either! I'll post on that one after awhile...

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semi-tortured View Post
    Good post moonglow. 6,000 years of WORLD history and people tend to make everything about THEIR short lifetime and the United States. I don't want people to get the wrong idea about me. I believe Christ could return at any moment, but I don't believe it is imminent based on US history or some bad people doing bad things.
    Very true! I also think He could literally return at any time...not after such and such happens first...

    teddyv : The sin of humanity is definitely no greater or less than at any time in history. Media saturation and it's fascination with bad stories certainly leads to an apparent feeling of an increase.
    Very true and a great point! Because of the media we know about sins much quicker! And more indepth...then they used too. So yes it can appear things are worse then they really are. Its like when they go on and on about a terrible murder in a town...they don't say, but the other 10,000 in this town didn't harm each other...everyone just focuses on the one bad things and views get distorted that way.
    cwb I do not believe sin is worse now than in the disciples time. However I do believe sinners have better technology to carry out their lawless deeds such as radical Islamists have the ability to obtain weapons of mass destruction, governments have the ability to use rfid technology to track and control its people, and corporations have the ability to destroy the environment.
    I don't know that more people dying due to WMD makes things worse in the past though...I mean look at the numbers here:

    Adam Clarks bible commentary
    To St. Matthew's account, St. Luke adds, Luke 21:24, They shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shalt be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, till the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. The number of those who fell by the sword was very great. ELEVEN HUNDRED THOUSAND perished during the siege. Many were slain at other places, and at other times. By the commandment of Florus, the first author of the war, there were slain at Jerusalem 3,600, Jos. WAR, b. ii. c. 14.

    By the inhabitants of Caesarea, above 20,000. At Scythopolis, above 13,000. At Ascalon, 2,500. At Ptolemais, 2,000. At Alexandria, 50,000. At Joppa, when taken by Cestius Gallus, 8,400. In a mountain called Asamon, near Sepporis, above 2,000. At Damascus, 10,000. In a battle with the Romans at Ascalon, 10,000. In an ambuscade near the same place, 8,000. At Japha, 15,000.

    Of the Samaritans, on Mount Gerizim, 11,600. At Jotapa, 40,000. At Joppa, when taken by Vespasian, 4,200. At Tarichea, 6,500. And after the city was taken, 1,200. At Gamala, 4,000, besides 5,000 who threw themselves down a precipice. Of those who fled with John, of Gischala, 6,000. Of the Gadarenes, 15,000 slain, besides countless multitudes drowned.

    In the village of Idumea, above 10,000 slain. At Gerasa, 1,000. At Machaerus, 1,700. In the wood of Jardes, 3,000. In the castle of Masada, 960. In Cyrene, by Catullus the governor, 3,000. Besides these, many of every age, sex, and condition, were slain in the war, who are not reckoned; but, of those who are reckoned, the number amounts to upwards of 1,357,660, which would have appeared incredible, if their own historian had not so particularly enumerated them. See Josephus, WAR, book ii. c. 18,20; book iii. c. 2,7, 8,9; book iv. c. 1,2, 7,8, 9; book vii. c. 6,9, 11; and Bp. Newton, vol. ii. p. 288-290.

    Many also were led away captives into all nations. There were taken at Japha, 2,130. At Jotapa, 1,200. At Tarichea, 6,000 chosen young men, who were sent to Nero; others sold to the number of 30,400, besides those who were given to Agrippa. Of the Gadarenes were taken 2,200.

    In Idumea above 1,000. Many besides these were taken in Jerusalem; so that, as Josephus says, the number of the captives taken in the whole war amounted to 97,000. Those above seventeen years of age were sent to the works in Egypt; but most were distributed through the Roman provinces, to be destroyed in their theatres by the sword, and by the wild beasts; and those under seventeen years of age were sold for slaves.

    Eleven thousand in one place perished for want.
    At Caesarea, Titus, like a thorough-paced infernal savage, murdered 2,500 Jews, in honour of his brother's birthday; and a greater number at Berytus in honour of his father's. See Josephus, WAR, b. vii. c. 3. s. 1. Some he caused to kill each other; some were thrown to the wild beasts; and others burnt alive. And all this was done by a man who was styled, The darling of mankind! Thus were the Jews miserably tormented, and distributed over the Roman provinces; and continue to be distressed and dispersed over all the nations of the world to the present day.

    Jerusalem also was, according to the prediction of our Lord, to be trodden down by the Gentiles. Accordingly it has never since been in the possession of the Jews. It was first in subjection to the Romans, afterwards to the Saracens, then to the Franks, after to the Mamalukes, and now to the Turks. Thus has the prophecy of Christ been most literally and terribly fulfilled, on a people who are still preserved as continued monuments of the truth of our Lord's prediction, and of the truth of the Christian religion.

    World War II, or the Second World War, (often abbreviated WWII) was a global military conflict which involved a majority of the world's nations, including all of the great powers, organized into two opposing military alliances: the Allies and the Axis. The war involved the mobilization of over 100 million military personnel, making it the most widespread war in history. In a state of "total war", the major participants placed their complete economic, industrial, and scientific capabilities at the service of the war effort, erasing the distinction between civilian and military resources. Over 70 million people, the majority of them civilians, were killed, making it the deadliest conflict in human history.

    Joseph Stalin (Georgian: ნამდვილი გვარი ჯუღაშვილი, Russian: Иосиф Сталин, ISO 9: Iosif Stalin; December 18 [O.S. December 6] 1878 – March 5, 1953) was General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union's Central Committee from 1922 until his death in 1953. He gradually consolidated power and became party leader and dictator of the Soviet Union, established the regime now known as Stalinism.

    Following the death of Vladimir Lenin in 1924, Stalin prevailed in a power struggle over Leon Trotsky, who was expelled from the Communist Party and deported from the Soviet Union. Stalin launched a command economy in the Soviet Union replacing the New Economic Policy of the 1920s with Five-Year Plans in 1928 and at roughly the same time, forced rapid industrialization of the largely rural country and collective farming by confiscating the lands of farmers. He derogatorily referred to farmers who refused his reforms as "kulaks", a class of rich peasant which had in actual fact been wiped out by World War I; millions were killed, exiled to Siberia, or died of starvation after their land, homes, meager possessions, and ability to earn an existence from the land were taken to fulfill Stalin's vision of massive "factory farms".[5]

    governments have the ability to use rfid technology to track and control its people,
    I guess I don't understand this concern some have on here as I see nothing in the bible that suggest anyone will try to track us or anyone else. Care to enlighten me on that?

    Thanks

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

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    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow View Post
    Very true! I also think He could literally return at any time...not after such and such happens first...
    We do know the following has to happen first:

    2 Thess 2
    1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    Paul taught that there would be a massive falling away from the faith before the second coming of Christ. Don't you believe that Satan's little season precedes the second coming? We may be in that time period already, I'm not sure. But to say that nothing is prophesied to happen before the return of Christ is not entirely accurate. There isn't necessarily a specific event that will tell us His return is near, but if we see an increase in deception and wickedness along with mass apostasy in the world then that will be a sign that His return is near.

  9. #9
    cwb Guest
    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by moonglow

    I guess I don't understand this concern some have on here as I see nothing in the bible that suggest anyone will try to track us or anyone else. Care to enlighten me on that?

    Thanks

    God bless[/quote
    Some believe it is rfid technology the enemy will use to bring about the mark of the beast. Whether the devil uses rfid technology or not I do not know. However, I know the technology is out there now and is getting better all the time. Whether our government ever usess it in an evil way remains to be seen. If our government does not use rfid for evil purposes, it will still be interesting to see how radical Islamic countries use it once the technology becomes more widespread and more sophisticated.

  10. #10
    cwb Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    We do know the following has to happen first:

    2 Thess 2
    1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    Paul taught that there would be a massive falling away from the faith before the second coming of Christ. Don't you believe that Satan's little season precedes the second coming? We may be in that time period already, I'm not sure. But to say that nothing is prophesied to happen before the return of Christ is not entirely accurate. There isn't necessarily a specific event that will tell us His return is near, but if we see an increase in deception and wickedness along with mass apostasy in the world then that will be a sign that His return is near.
    I am having some trouble understanding why you say we could be in that time period now. I do not see anybody in our world today who could qualify as the man of sin being revealed. Do you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    We do know the following has to happen first:

    2 Thess 2
    1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    Paul taught that there would be a massive falling away from the faith before the second coming of Christ. Don't you believe that Satan's little season precedes the second coming? We may be in that time period already, I'm not sure. But to say that nothing is prophesied to happen before the return of Christ is not entirely accurate. There isn't necessarily a specific event that will tell us His return is near, but if we see an increase in deception and wickedness along with mass apostasy in the world then that will be a sign that His return is near.
    Excellent point and one of the things I wanted to get too. I think everyone is looking in the wrong direction...looking for natural disasters to get worse, looking for people to be more sinful and on and on and on. The key it seems Jesus and Paul were pointing to so often was IN the church!

    I think there is a verse in the bible about why would we expect unbelievers to act better then they are? Why would we expect this world to be anything other then what Christ said it was....sin fallen...so why are we acting all shocked and upset when people do terrible things and we think that means the end is close. Truly horrible things have happen! And will keep happening.

    At any rate, yes...the defining point here is how many are falling away from God? I don't think we can say false teachings are worse or more wide spread then in the past. What we need to watch for is all those ex-Christians out there and I am seeing more and more of those but honestly some of the things they say in their reason for leaving the faith makes me think most of those were never saved to start with. They don't even have basis knowledge of the bible or Jesus. They leave over silly things...more like they didn't like the rules so left. That isn't what I am watching for.

    Those that believe in OSAS are going to have a hard time with that passage or think no real Christians will fall away. I think the combination of the strain of the false churches on top of many other things will cause them to turn their backs on God.

    I am seeing it to some extent already and have for several years now...these more then just "I said the sinners prayer" type of Christian. The world isn't more sinful then it was in the past..its not them just giving in to the pressure of the sinnful world cause its more terrible then before..that isnt' true. Its deeper then that.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwb View Post
    Some believe it is rfid technology the enemy will use to bring about the mark of the beast. Whether the devil uses rfid technology or not I do not know. However, I know the technology is out there now and is getting better all the time. Whether our government ever usess it in an evil way remains to be seen. If our government does not use rfid for evil purposes, it will still be interesting to see how radical Islamic countries use it once the technology becomes more widespread and more sophisticated.
    I know their concerns over the chip..but the tracking device is going really too far when they say that. I mean first of all...if they have a Christian physically in their grips, why chip them and let them go? The idea of the chip is to get the mark of the beast and in order to do that you have to also worship the beast...or be killed...that is what the bible says. So if they have a Christian who refuses both...why would they want to chip them just to follow their movements? That isn't in scriptures. It says if the Christian refuses...they kill them. There wouldn't be enough people to watch the activities of 8 billion people anyway!

    I know people worry what they say on the computer, phone is heard and being watched...I honestly don't care. What do I ever say or do that I would be ashamed of and want to hide anyway? So if my jeans from Walmart have a tracking device in them ...who cares? Whole thing seems pretty silly to me. They can watch a light move around my house while I clean it...or the yard when I mow...follow the bleeping light as I go check my mail...I mean what is the point of that? I never could understand that...

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

  13. #13
    All I know is how ive seen the world change in the past 40 some years. When I was little you never heard about homoseuality. Now its thrown in your face and if you dont except it your a hater. Divorce happened but it was still viewed as shameful. Now its the in thing to do. We have porn stars on prime time tv sitting around a talk show like opra talking about penis sizes. You cant let your children out of your site for the fear of some child molester grabbing them. etc, etc. then our court systems side with the criminals. the psychology anymore is there not accountable for their actions, its someone esles fault. Yes sin was bad in the old times but the biggest difference is its glorified today. people take pride in sinning. And back in the old days there wasnt the means of communication we have today. where some misguided individual can hook up easy with others.

    Small things like calling adults by there last name. Mr Smith doesnt happen anymore. dressing appropreate to school. long pants and a shirt, or skirt have been replaced with short shorts tank tops sandles. My thing is it just seem sinful things have become so acceptable these days. that for the common person there is no right or wrong. its whatever they feel.

    Marriage is a good example.. Were susposed to court , get married, stay together til death. having children is a blessing from God.

    But today most people have had several sexual partners, before marriage dive into marriage on a whim and dont want children because they are more concerend about material possesions. Then when things dont work out they get divorced and see nothing wrong with it.

  14. #14
    I think sin is much worse now than it was back in Roman days. I have read several books on the culture of the times, and some things that we have seen on TV are really not representative to the actual culture of the day. For instance, I believe that Moonglow mentioned that homosexuality was ramped during the day of Nero. And indeed, there were people who were homosexual, but it defiantly was not encouraged as the proper way to go through life. Case in point, they gave tax breaks as they do today to married men and women because they wanted to encourage children. You see they needed a larger population to fill the ranks of their military so they needed to push heterosexual families. I know we have seen many films that depict the emperors as homosexual exploiters, but we have to look at the source. Nero was plain crazy, and he did not represent the masses as were many other leaders of their day. This could be debated, but the key part of this in my mind is that they did not export homosexuality as an accepted way of life and we do.

    Secondly, Crime was harshly punished to keep everyone in line. For instance if someone robbed for what ever reason they could easily have been crucified just outside the city streets to make a point of not stealing. It was quite effective in keeping everyone in line. This was not done in the name of Christ, but law and order was kept efficiently. Most of the population was poor so greed was typically isolated to the centralized roman power structure. Families were close because they had to produce crops in order to survive. Times were hard so people did not live a long life. If you were in your mid to late 30’s you were considered a person who has lived a long life.

    I am sure adultery was popular back then just as it is today, but one thing we have over the Romans is that today we have ways of concealing our actions’ much better than in days of past. Birth control helps conceal these acts today, and if you catch an STD, there is always a shot waiting for you to cover some of the common ailments, and then there is always abortion or just out right deceit about who the baby daddy is. I am not stupid to think that adultery did not occur back then, but what I am suggesting is that there were real repercussions to mistakes back then that do not exists today. Remember that stoning was an accepted punishment for people who were caught in adultery. Today, if you have an affair, it can easily be blamed on the other spouse for mistreating you in one way or another. I am not suggesting staying in an abusive marriage, but what I am suggesting is that many people have affairs because they grow tired of their partner, and then blame the act on their spouse because they did not get to go out to dinner like they should have. In any event, I think it is much more widespread. Case in point, look at how many preachers are caught in adultery today, and some are even caught in homosexual affairs. Now can you imagine the head Rabbi in Roman days being caught in a homosexual relationship? Christ never mentioned that they were associated in that type of sin, and I think he fully exposed them of their wrong doing in his day.

    As far as idol worshipping, I think today most people in America worship money much more than they do God. Money becomes an idol when we put it first in our lives. Also, the insignia “in god we trust” on our currency is a reference to many gods. I want to put this so everyone can see this clearly. Our nation is founded on freedom in religion, and even though Christianity was the predominant religion 200 years ago, it is not so today. We are now witnessing many branches of different sect’s crop up out of nowhere. Many do have roots tied to Christianity, but their practices are nothing but foreign to most Christians of any day. Then we have Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Satanism, Paganism, Atheism, and any tax free status organization that can be thought up. I think Christianity is further along today than it was in Roman days for sure, but we do have our fair share of idols out there.

    Then there is the issue of exportation of immorality. Just look at our media outlets that sensationalize immorality. There is no need to go into detail, but we all know that this is an anchor to our society. All in all I say we are shaping up perfectly as described in many end times references of the Bible. I could go on and on about our immorality, but surely everyone sees it just as I do. There is no doubt in my mind that sin is worse today than in the disciple’s time.

  15. #15
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by wrldstrman View Post
    All I know is how ive seen the world change in the past 40 some years. When I was little you never heard about homoseuality. Now its thrown in your face and if you dont except it your a hater.
    Yes it our life time things have changed...if you look at the over all history of mankind though you see it going from one extreme to the other. Things get morally bad and usually the nation either falls...things go into chasio so everyone decides being more conversative will save the people...so they swing back the other way...eventually things start going bad again...and the cycle continues. While WE never heard of homosexuality out in the open IN OUR time..it was common in the disciples time. That is my point. They had to deal with things much worse then we have had to deal with. Things could get as bad as they were in their time...I don't know...but eventually it will start swinging the other way again.

    Divorce happened but it was still viewed as shameful. Now its the in thing to do.
    Divorce was extremely common in Jesus' time. This is why He addressed it as He did.

    Matthew 5:31
    “Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’


    http://www.studylight.org/com/acc/vi...mt&chapter=005

    Verse 31. Whosoever shall put away his wife
    The Jewish doctors gave great license in the matter of divorce. Among them, a man might divorce his wife if she displeased him even in the dressing of his victuals!

    Rabbi Akiba said, "If any man saw a woman handsomer than his own wife, he might put his wife away; because it is said in the law, If she find not favour in his eyes." Deuteronomy 24:1.

    Josephus, the celebrated Jewish historian, in his Life, tells us, with the utmost coolness and indifference, "About this time I put away my wife, who had borne me three children, not being pleased with her manners."

    These two cases are sufficient to show to what a scandalous and criminal excess this matter was carried among the Jews. However, it was allowed by the school of Shammai, that no man was to put away his wife unless for adultery. The school of Hillel gave much greater license.


    We have porn stars on prime time tv sitting around a talk show like opra talking about penis sizes.
    As I pointed out the TV can be turned off. the things Paul and the other saw were in plain site.

    You cant let your children out of your site for the fear of some child molester grabbing them. etc, etc.
    I don't think its that bad! I mean its not like children are being kidnapped constantly...not sure where you are getting that. Of course we have to keep an eye on them but I feel safe in letting my son ride his bike around here or to a friends house.
    then our court systems side with the criminals. the psychology anymore is there not accountable for their actions, its someone esles fault.
    Some times yes that happens..but the court in the disciples day were no less better...otherwise none of them would have been killed.

    Yes sin was bad in the old times but the biggest difference is its glorified today.
    I think you need to re-read my post....


    people take pride in sinning. And back in the old days there wasnt the means of communication we have today. where some misguided individual can hook up easy with others. The Corinthian's Paul dealt with had SPIRITUAL PRIDE while a man in the church was sleeping with his step mom. They had no shame or guilt. If people didn't glorify sin back then Paul wouldn't have wrote Romans 1:18-32

    Small things like calling adults by there last name. Mr Smith doesnt happen anymore.
    I am called by my last name by the children my son plays with and by the children at his school and the teachers...as I call them by their last names. Where do you live anyway?

    dressing appropreate to school. long pants and a shirt, or skirt have been replaced with short shorts tank tops sandles.
    Schools don't allow tank tops or shorts that are too short...most schools have a dress code that has to be abided by. I am not sure what's wrong with wearing sandals since Jesus and the disciples worn sandals . While they still dress in ways that are not modest by our standards they still got an eye full back then too! Otherwise there would be no scriptures about it.

    1 Timothy 2:9
    And I want women to be modest in their appearance. They should wear decent and appropriate clothing and not draw attention to themselves by the way they fix their hair or by wearing gold or pearls or expensive clothes.


    That women adorn themselves
    καιταςγοναικαςεςκαταστολη κοαμιω. The apostle seems to refer here to different parts of the Grecian and Roman dress. The στολη, stola, seems to have been originally very simple. It was a long piece of cloth, doubled in the middle, and sewed up on both sides, leaving room only for the arms; at the top, a piece was cut out, or a slit made, through which the head passed. It hung down to the feet, both before and behind, and was girded with the zona round the body, just under the breasts. It was sometimes made with, sometimes without, sleeves; and, that it might sit the better, it was gathered on each shoulder with a band or buckle. Some of the Greek women wore them open on each side, from the bottom up above the knee, so as to discover a part of the thigh. These were termed φαινομηριδες, showers (discoverers) of the thigh; but it was, in general, only young girls or immodest women who wore them thus.

    My thing is it just seem sinful things have become so acceptable these days. that for the common person there is no right or wrong. its whatever they feel.
    Now you know how Jesus felt.
    Marriage is a good example.. Were susposed to court , get married, stay together til death. having children is a blessing from God.
    Already address how divorce was rampant back then.

    But today most people have had several sexual partners, before marriage dive into marriage on a whim and dont want children because they are more concerend about material possesions. Then when things dont work out they get divorced and see nothing wrong with it.
    They didn't see anything wrong with it then either.

    God bless
    "People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson

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