three questions: the trinity, Jesus's ancestry, and conception

[jewess]

Could you explain the concept of the trinity?

Also, if I got this correct (I might not), if Jesus's mother is Mary and his father is God how is Jesus descended from King David on his father's (I think this is refering to Joseph) side if Joseph isn't his father?

One more: How did the immaculate conception work? An embryo is made up of sperm dna and egg dna. Unless this has nothing to do with science?

I'm not interested in believing what you believe but I am interested in knowing what it is you believe because I'm sure my misconceptions are way off. Being Jewish, these concepts are alien to me. I just want to understand.

[Tanya~]

Could you explain the concept of the trinity?

A theological explanation can be found here. And here is an explanation that helps us to comprehend the concept.

Also, if I got this correct (I might not), if Jesus's mother is Mary and his father is God how is Jesus descended from King David on his father's (I think this is refering to Joseph) side if Joseph isn't his father?

Joseph is His legal father, and Mary is His biological mother.

One more: How did the immaculate conception work? An embryo is made up of sperm dna and egg dna. Unless this has nothing to do with science?

We actually aren't given the details of the conception of Jesus Christ. (btw, the "immaculate conception" is a Catholic concept and is a reference to Mary being born without sin. Many people are unaware of that, even Catholics)

What the Bible tells us about the conception of Jesus is this:



Matt 1:18-21
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. 19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. 20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."
NKJV

Luke 1:26-35

Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28 And having come in, the angel said to her,"Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!"

29 But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."

34 Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?"

35 And the angel answered and said to her,"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.
NKJV

I'm not interested in believing what you believe but I am interested in knowing what it is you believe because I'm sure my misconceptions are way off. Being Jewish, these concepts are alien to me. I just want to understand.

We are happy to offer whatever we can to help you understand the Biblical Christian faith.

[jewess]

Thank you.

Re the two articles you linked to: I admit to skimming them but a few paragraphs jumped out at me and it helped me clarify my faith. I saw what you believed and understood which parts I disagreed with and why. Namely that in the Jewish bible different names are used to refer to G-d in different books depending on how we understand Him, as King, as Father, etc. However, these are all ways to relate to one being. We don't need to personify an aspect because he is all aspects simultaneously even the ones that seem contradictory.

Re Joseph is his legal father: That makes sense in a way. I can see that working in regards to tribe but something as delicate as being descended from a King... I don't know, that doesn't feel right to me somehow.

Re the conception: the image that keeps coming to my mind is Zeus and his many dalliances with human women. I hope that doesn't offend but the verses you quoted just sound like magic to me. But that's the beauty of faith: it works where science can't.

[Tanya~]

Re Joseph is his legal father: That makes sense in a way. I can see that working in regards to tribe but something as delicate as being descended from a King... I don't know, that doesn't feel right to me somehow.

I suppose not. But from a legal and technical standpoint it works. It was through the Seed of the woman that redemption was promised though (Gen 3:15). So from a prophetic standpoint, it makes perfect sense. From where I sit anyway.

Re the conception: the image that keeps coming to my mind is Zeus and his many dalliances with human women. I hope that doesn't offend but the verses you quoted just sound like magic to me. But that's the beauty of faith: it works where science can't.

Well the Holy Spirit isn't like Zeus. He is God's Spirit, invisible, immaterial, and holy. So it was neither magic nor some kind of dalliance of the gods. It was by the Holy Spirit.

Isa 48:16
16 "Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit
Have sent Me."
NKJV

As the Son of God, the Word of God became flesh -- God by the Holy Spirit gave Mary conception so that Jesus was both Son of Man and Son of God. As you know, the Messiah has to be a man. But the Scripture shows that He also must be God. e.g., Psalm 24, and the Son of God Psalm 2.

A man who is not the LORD cannot effect salvation for Israel or for anyone.

Isa 43:10-11
10 "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen,That you may know and believe Me,And understand that I am He.Before Me there was no God formed,Nor shall there be after Me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD,And besides Me there is no savior .
NKJV

Hos 13:4
"Yet I am the LORD your God
Ever since the land of Egypt,
And you shall know no God but Me;
For there is no savior besides Me.
NKJV

Christians do believe that Jesus is both Lord and Messiah.

[jewess]

re But the Scripture shows that He also must be God.

I will agree to disagree on this point.

[markinro]

re But the Scripture shows that He also must be God.

I will agree to disagree on this point.

Ah, but the scriptures DO provide proof. Jesus = God = The Word

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

John 14
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

[apothanein kerdos]

Could you explain the concept of the trinity?

The Trinity simply beings that God is one, while being three distinct persons. While this is admittedly confusing and impossible to explain, consider this:

Strict monotheism (non-Trinitarian) is illogical if it teaches in a God that is both transcendent and immanent. How can God both be above His creation and yet be able to relate to His creation unless He is both transcendent and immanent? The only way for this to occur is if God were to have distinct persons that operate differently.

Also, if I got this correct (I might not), if Jesus's mother is Mary and his father is God how is Jesus descended from King David on his father's (I think this is refering to Joseph) side if Joseph isn't his father?

Here is what I posted in another thread:

As for Jesus not being the son of Joseph, the Bible admits as much in the genealogies. There are, however, two ways to look at this, both of which are legitimate:

1) Due to how marriages worked during that time period, Mary would have been related to Joseph somewhere down the line and wouldn't have been that far removed. This means she too would have been of the bloodline of Joseph, which makes the question, "Is Jesus really part of the line of David" null because her relation to Joseph would make the answer, "Yes."

2) Adoption was viewed as coming into the bloodline. It is possible that Joseph adopted Jesus which, in turn, would have made Him a part of Joseph's bloodline. Notice that Emperor Augustus early on in his reign called himself Julius Caesar, after his uncle. The reason is the real Julius Caesar adopted Octavian as his own son and everyone took it literally - he wasn't just adopted, he actually was Julius Caesar's son. Likewise, if Joseph did a similar act, then Jesus would have been considered a legitimate heir and would have justifiably traced his lineage through Joseph's line.

One more: How did the immaculate conception work? An embryo is made up of sperm dna and egg dna. Unless this has nothing to do with science?

It is a mystery. No one knows how it worked, merely that it did. It's not necessarily illogical, just nonphysical. Thus, there isn't a physical explanation for how the incarnation worked, but I don't see why there would need to be one in order to believe in it.

[mcgyver]

re But the Scripture shows that He also must be God.

I will agree to disagree on this point.

Good morning Jewess, once again it is so good to see you here

The concept of the "Trinity" is not a Christian concept, but in fact stems from early Judaism, something that (it has been my experience) most Jews do not realize. It is only that the "Trinity" has been more clearly "revealed" (if you will) in the New Testament.

The allusion to the Trinity can be found for example in Genesis 1:1

In the beginning God [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth. As you know, Elohim is plural.

Again it is found in Gen. 1:26-27:

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..." This really can't be referring to angels being "our likeness" because the next verse says: So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Then there are the appearances of "The Angel of The Lord" in the OT. We know that no angel is going to accept worship...for that is reserved for the Lord.

But yet in Joshua 5:13-15 it is written:

And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”
So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the LORD I have now come.”
And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”
Then the Commander of the LORD’s army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.

Please note the words: “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.”...These are the very same words spoken by the Lord to Moses at the burning bush.

In the appearances of Gabriel and Michael to the prophets, these words were not spoken by the angels...Only by The Angel of the Lord.

We have other examples: Abraham by the Terebinth tree, for example.

In Christian theology these are referred to as a "Theophany" or "Christophany"; literally an appearance of Messiah in the Old Testament prior to His Advent in the New Testament.

Even in the Sh'ma we see a word used that expresses the idea of the "Godhead"..."Echad" : "Sh'ma Yisroel, Adonai Eluhanu, Adonai Echad" (Excuse the transliteration...best I can do ). Once again "Echad" is not the Hebrew word for the number 1, but yet expresses the idea of "Oneness in plurality" for lack of a better term...there is really no exact translation in English for the term. Then of course there is the "Ru'ach Elohim"

In the Prophet Isaiah is found the words: Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel (Lit. God-with-us)

And again:

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Given that all these are found in the Tanach, is it then much of a stretch to understand why Christians accept Jesus as God in the flesh as a fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets?

[TrustGzus]

Re the conception: the image that keeps coming to my mind is Zeus and his many dalliances with human women. I hope that doesn't offend but the verses you quoted just sound like magic to me. But that's the beauty of faith: it works where science can't.

Hey jewess,

By calling yourself Jewish, I'm taking that in every sense -- ethnically and religiously.

The difference between the mythological stories and the virgin birth/incarnation of Jesus is that the myths produces demi-gods by actual copulation. Christianity does believe the Father and Mary did this. Also, being demi-gods, these beings were half-man/half-god. Christianity teaches that Jesus is both fully god and fully human.

And if you consider Genesis 1:1 true, if God could create the entire universe from nothing, it's a small thing to take care of the issues involved in the virgin birth. If he can create a universe out of nothing, then surely he can make up for the lack of sperm.

Grace & peace,

Joe

[jewess]

Re Even in the Sh'ma we see a word used that expresses the idea of the "Godhead"..."Echad" : "Sh'ma Yisroel, Adonai Eluhanu, Adonai Echad" (Excuse the transliteration...best I can do ). Once again "Echad" is not the Hebrew word for the number 1, but yet expresses the idea of "Oneness in plurality" for lack of a better term...there is really no exact translation in English for the term. Then of course there is the "Ru'ach Elohim"

I am sorry but that completely offends me. You just took the main tenet of my faith and absolutely perverted it. "Hear O Israel the Lord is G-d, the Lord is One." is so sacred that you have to cover your eyes when you say it so that it's the only thing you're focusing on.

As for the word Echad, it is the hebrew word for the number one and I learned it when I learned how to count to ten in Hebrew.




In the Prophet Isaiah is found the words: Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel (Lit. God-with-us)

Firstly, the Jewish translation of the hebrew word is "young woman" not "virgin" but even if that were not so that refers to somebody named Immanuel not to somebody named Jesus.

[jewess]

Re Originally Posted by jewess View Post
re But the Scripture shows that He also must be God.

I will agree to disagree on this point.

I'm sorry to shout but THIS MEANS I DO NOT WISH TO DEBATE THIS TOPIC BECAUSE IT WILL ONLY ANGER ME SO PLEASE ALSO AGREE TO DISAGREE AND DON'T TRY TO CONVERT ME, IT'S RUDE!

[mcgyver]

My apologies, I did not mean to offend in any way, shape, or form.

Therefore to avoid further offense, I shall merely bow out...

[apothanein kerdos]

Jewess,

What is also rude is when people come onto a Christian website and ask us not to perform one of our primary functions as Christians (which is to tell the truth an dispel false lies).

I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but it gets very old to hear "Don't try to convert me, it's rude." Well, what do you think Christianity is about? It's about loving God and loving our neighbor - part of loving our neighbor is telling the truth, even when "rude."

[apothanein kerdos]

Re Even in the Sh'ma we see a word used that expresses the idea of the "Godhead"..."Echad" : "Sh'ma Yisroel, Adonai Eluhanu, Adonai Echad" (Excuse the transliteration...best I can do ). Once again "Echad" is not the Hebrew word for the number 1, but yet expresses the idea of "Oneness in plurality" for lack of a better term...there is really no exact translation in English for the term. Then of course there is the "Ru'ach Elohim"

I am sorry but that completely offends me. You just took the main tenet of my faith and absolutely perverted it. "Hear O Israel the Lord is G-d, the Lord is One." is so sacred that you have to cover your eyes when you say it so that it's the only thing you're focusing on.

As for the word Echad, it is the hebrew word for the number one and I learned it when I learned how to count to ten in Hebrew.




In the Prophet Isaiah is found the words: Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel (Lit. God-with-us)

Firstly, the Jewish translation of the hebrew word is "young woman" not "virgin" but even if that were not so that refers to somebody named Immanuel not to somebody named Jesus.

Maybe your belief is wrong? Keep in mind the same word is used in Genesis when God refers to Husband and Wife becoming "one" flesh. This is not a literal oneness, but instead the echad is used to describe a unified oneness - a oneness that exists as an actuality, but distinguished in persons.

Don't be offended - you asked questions and we're answering. Did you expect the Christian belief wouldn't offend you? Christianity, by nature, is offensive.

[Tanya~]

Because this isn't a debate forum, I'm closing the thread lest it devolve into a debate. Jewess, I think your questions were adequately answered, and if you have further questions please feel free to ask in a new thread.