Help me answer this question

[Gulah Papyrus]

An 'all roads lead to God' close friend of mine asked me this question today and I want to give him a very solid answer:

. But what about those that didn't know or have the chance to know him? Would Jesus be upset that others would have found their way to God? Aren't we all his creatures?

The conversation leading up to this point had to do with him stating that many Christians believe that Christ isn't the only way. I explained that they aren't really 'Christian' by definition and that exclusivity is a large part of the Christian foundation etc. and this was his response.


I have a good idea of how to answer but it can never hurt to check with the experts!

Thanks in advance.

[Firefighter]

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Romans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

It really is that simple.

IF Christianity is a way, then it has to be the ONLY way, otherwise it is a lie.

I prefer to believe it is the ONLY way.

[9Marksfan]

An 'all roads lead to God' close friend of mine asked me this question today and I want to give him a very solid answer:

. But what about those that didn't know or have the chance to know him?

The passage in Romans 1 cited by Urban Missionary shows that everyone DOES have the chance to know Him - so that they are without excuse.

Would Jesus be upset that others would have found their way to God?

There IS no other way to God than by Jesus!

Aren't we all his creatures?

Yes, but we're all children of wrath until we're saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:1-9)!

[moonglow]

Coffeecat had a thread like this on maturing in Christ a couple of months ago which I tried to find and can't...guess I am not putting in the right key words there... I had alot of information on it though. This question comes up alot on the board.

First we know God puts the knowledge of Him in all of us:

Romans 1:18
18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves. 19 For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. 20 From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.

The Indians knew who God was before the white men came with their bibles ...they called Him the Great White Spirit...which God is..a spirit...White for purity and Great.

John 4:24
"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

They also knew who Jesus was too! God gave them visions of Him and of Christ...though they used different names, they were the same. I would give you a link to their site that explains this in depth but when I was trying to give it to coffeecat when I got on that site it was messed up and kept making my computer crash...froze up!

From the book White Man Walking:

A follower of Jesus was camping in the mountains of Tibet. A sunset, two Sherpa herdsmen appeared out of the mist, and approached him at the campfire. They wore woolen robes, with hoods, that partially obscured their dark, weathered faces. They said, "We have come a long way to get a word from you." After pondering for a moment how he might tell them about Jesus, the man of faith realized that these herdsmen would certainly understand sheep, so he began relating every Bible story he could remember that included shepherds and sheep.

He recited Psalm 23, the lesson about the one lost sheep, Jesus as the Good Shepherd, and other sheep stories. When he finished, the herdsmen bowed deeply and retreated into the darkness. The following morning in the pre-dawn mist, the shepherds reappeared. They approached the man of faith and said, "We discussed all through the night what you spoke about yesterday, and we have two very important messages in reply. The first is that we have decided to follow this God you call Jesus." Deeply moved, the man of faith then asked what the second message was. With eyes that danced with joy, the herdsmen said, "We have always known Him. We just didn't know His name!"

And of course the bible clearly says no one goes to the Father but by me...oops just saw Urban Missionary posted that verse and the other one I posted...lol...

Aren't we all his creatures?

The bible tells us as you know..we were made in God's image...but not everyone is considered His child.

Romans 8
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.

15 So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God’s Spirit when he adopted you as his own children. Now we call him, “Abba, Father.”

John 8:43-45
43 Why can’t you understand what I am saying? It’s because you can’t even hear me! 44 For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 So when I tell the truth, you just naturally don’t believe me!

God bless

[theBelovedDisciple]

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Romans 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

It really is that simple.

IF Christianity is a way, then it has to be the ONLY way, otherwise it is a lie.

I prefer to believe it is the ONLY way.

Excellent post.. and YES... Jesus is the Only Way...

No man comes to the Father but thru Him and by Him...

who? Jesus the Christ...

All of the 'other' so called 'messiahs'. or 'gods' .. are still in their 'graves'

The the Only True Living God has 'come out of the grave'... on that 3rd day.. He arose... proving that He has the keys to death, hell , and the grave.. and that He is the Author of Life itself...

Do you 'know' Him today?

[Literalist-Luke]

Notice in Romans Chapter 1 that God is holding everyone throughout history in the entire world responsible for rejecting Him:

Romans 1:19-20 – “...what may be known about God is plain to them [humankind in general], because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”

Notice here that God is talking about a level of revelation that involves no Israel, no Mosaic sacrificial system, no Scriptures, and no Christ, only nature and the creation around us. God says we should know based only on His revelation of Himself in the creation around us. This is precisely the condition that existed up until Moses wrote the Pentateuch. And yet Paul is using it as a reason for God's condemnation of the lost AFTER the start of the “Church Age”. “...what may be known about God IS plain to them...” “...so that people ARE without excuse.”

Here’s why that’s a problem – traditional Dispensationalism has one phase of God’s revelation replacing the previous one, all going sequentially in order. This is why a lot of people believe that, today, unless you believe on the name “Jesus”, you are automatically condemned to hell, even if you've never even heard the name Jesus. Romans Chapter 1 directly contradicts this. Romans Chapter 1 suggests that we are only responsible for the level of revelation that we have been given. That being the case, the only logical conclusion is that God’s phases of revelation do not replace each other, but rather are added on top of each other, each one clarifying the previous and giving us a better understanding of the issues at hand.[/COLOR]

The highest level of revelation we have been given thus far is the combination of the completed 66 books of the Word of God along with the historical revelation of Christ Himself in the flesh when He visited the earth 2000 years ago. But that doesn't mean that everything else before that simply gets thrown out with the bathwater.

This is proof that it is indeed possible for God to deal with more than one group of people at a time. He is not restricted to dealing only with Israel or only with Gentiles.

I should also point out that this does not provide an “excuse” for us to not respond to Christ. We cannot say “Well, I don't want to respond to Christ, but I can agree that the world around me was definitely created by an intelligent being, so I'll just respond on that level.” Nope, sorry Charlie, you're still condemned, because Christ was revealed to you and you are responsible to respond to the revelation that you were given.

[Gulah Papyrus]

This is why a lot of people believe that, today, unless you believe on the name “Jesus”, you are automatically condemned to hell, even if you've never even heard the name Jesus. Romans Chapter 1 directly contradicts this. Romans Chapter 1 suggests that we are only responsible for the level of revelation that we have been given. That being the case, the only logical conclusion is that God’s phases of revelation do not replace each other, but rather are added on top of each other, each one clarifying the previous and giving us a better understanding of the issues at hand.

This is proof that it is indeed possible for God to deal with more than one group of people at a time. He is not restricted to dealing only with Israel or only with Gentiles.

I should also point out that this does not provide an “excuse” for us to not respond to Christ. We cannot say “Well, I don't want to respond to Christ, but I can agree that the world around me was definitely created by an intelligent being, so I'll just respond on that level.” Nope, sorry Charlie, you're still condemned, because Christ was revealed to you and you are responsible to respond to the revelation that you were given.

Then what stops someone from claiming that other faiths or 'roads' are simply 'phases' on the way to the same 'light'?

Wouldn't this just mean that the only ones condemned are the ones who rejected Christ...by name? And what if they had heard the gospel but just weren't really paying attention?

I'm getting confused...which is a good thing...I think...

So in John 14:6 the 'me' Jesus is referencing isn't necessarily the person of Jesus, or the historical figure, but His spirit? If that's true, then all roads could lead to God...kinda...wait, what?lol:

[Gulah Papyrus]

Let's cut to the chase...what must one believe to enter the kingdom of Heaven?

[ƒσяєяυииєя]

what must one believe to enter the kingdom of Heaven?

Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. Acts 16:29-33

Go well

[Gulah Papyrus]

What about those who did/do not know of Jesus Christ?

ForeRunner, I am interested in your answer but please read the entire thread so you know where we are at in the discussion.

Thanks.

[Literalist-Luke]

Then what stops someone from claiming that other faiths or 'roads' are simply 'phases' on the way to the same 'light'?

Wouldn't this just mean that the only ones condemned are the ones who rejected Christ...by name? And what if they had heard the gospel but just weren't really paying attention?

I'm getting confused...which is a good thing...I think...

So in John 14:6 the 'me' Jesus is referencing isn't necessarily the person of Jesus, or the historical figure, but His spirit? If that's true, then all roads could lead to God...kinda...wait, what?lol:

The difference is that every other "religion" on the planet involves us earning the approval of whoever the relevant deity is through our own works. That's the key difference. We have to recognize that we can't make it on our own. The Old Testament saints had to recognize that, even though they didn't know the name "Jesus" like we do.

Today, we have the name "Jesus" that makes that realization on our part more clear and easier to come to. I would suspect, however, that for somebody who never had the opportunity to learn of the name "Jesus", God would know from their heart if they would have responded positively to Him.

And just to clarify, even for those who were/are not aware of His actual name or the details of His life on earth, nobody gets into Heaven without His death on that cross. Had He not gone through with what He did for us, every single person throughout all of history would be doomed, all the way from Adam to the end of the Millennium. Jesus is the key, even for those who didn't/dont' know His name.

[Gulah Papyrus]

Can someone who has never heard the name of Jesus have the Holy Spirit dwell in them?

[9Marksfan]

Today, we have the name "Jesus" that makes that realization on our part more clear and easier to come to.

Is that all you think we have - the "name Jesus" - is that all you think the NT constitutes - a new name for God?

I would suspect, however, that for somebody who never had the opportunity to learn of the name "Jesus", God would know from their heart if they would have responded positively to Him.

Do you have any scriptural backup for this view? Is God not powerful enough to send someone to these people with the gospel? And isn't the message of Rom 3 in particular that NO ONE seeks God - so He doesn't need to judge on the basis of how they WOULD have responded - He already knows that they WON'T respond, because they're dead in trespasses and sins!

And just to clarify, even for those who were/are not aware of His actual name or the details of His life on earth, nobody gets into Heaven without His death on that cross. Had He not gone through with what He did for us, every single person throughout all of history would be doomed, all the way from Adam to the end of the Millennium.

This of course is true - however........

Jesus is the key, even for those who didn't/dont' know His name.

THIS makes ALL missionary activity and consequently the Great Commission completely unnecessary. Believe it or not, you are advocating a kind of Hypercalvinism - and I don't know anyone on these Forums who holds to that.......

[Literalist-Luke]

Is that all you think we have - the "name Jesus" - is that all you think the NT constitutes - a new name for God?

When I speak of somebody knowing the name of Jesus, I mean that they also know everything that goes with it - the totality of the New Testament. It is possible for somebody to understand solely from the Old Testament that an ultimate sacrifice by God on our behalf is necessary for us to receive salvation. But the New Testament states it quite plainly, explains its details, gives us the name of that sacrifice and tells us His life story. So naturally, somebody being given this additional information would have an easier time responding than somebody else who does not have such information.

Do you have any scriptural backup for this view?

I already offered Romans 1:19-20 in post # 6.

Is God not powerful enough to send someone to these people with the gospel?

Of course He is - but what if He doesn't? There are millions of people during the last 2000 years who have died without ever hearing the name Jesus or what He did for us. Are you assuming that they are automatically condemned to hell because they lived in the wrong place at the wrong time? Or will you recognize that Romans 1:19-20 allows for the possibility of responding to the Gospel on another level for somebody who never had the story of Jesus shared with them?

And isn't the message of Rom 3 in particular that NO ONE seeks God - so He doesn't need to judge on the basis of how they WOULD have responded - He already knows that they WON'T respond, because they're dead in trespasses and sins!

Then how did you respond? You'll probably say somebody shared the Gospel with you. But just a moment ago, you said that nobody responds. I agree that nobody is capable of responding on our own, and that we can only respond as the Holy Spirit draws us, but what is to prevent Him from drawing somebody based on Romans 1:19-20?

This of course is true - however........

Thank you.

THIS makes ALL missionary activity and consequently the Great Commission completely unnecessary. Believe it or not, you are advocating a kind of Hypercalvinism - and I don't know anyone on these Forums who holds to that.......

That's funny, because I consider myself more of an Arminian. Of course witnessing and sharing the Gospel are critical. The world around us is full of lies and deceit concerning how to receive salvation. There is not one single religious belief anywhere in the world that I am aware of, other than Christianity, that teaches that the path to God was forged by God Himself. Every single religion I know of teaches that we have to forge our own path, which is a gospel of works. Most people will get inundated with that way of thinking and will go through life believing it to be true and will consequently miss out. We have to get the message out and counteract that way of thinking as much as possible, because the Gospel as revealed in the Creation will almost always get drowned out.

[Literalist-Luke]

Can someone who has never heard the name of Jesus have the Holy Spirit dwell in them?

King David did.

Psalm 51:11 - "Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me."

How could David ask God to not take away His Spirit unless he already had the Spirit indwelling him?