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Thread: The Sixth Seal Rapture of the Church

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    The Sixth Seal Rapture of the Church

    The Sixth Seal Rapture of the Church
    By Peter D. Goodgame

    There are several important New Testament passages that connect the rapture of the Church with the Day of the Lord. We are already familiar with the statement given by Jesus:
    “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.” (Luke 21:34-36)
    In this passage Jesus describes the rapture as an escape from the terrible events of "that day" which can only refer to the Day of the Lord. In Paul's explanation of the rapture and the Day of the Lord it seems that he was intimately familiar with the teachings of Jesus on the same subject:
    "Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:1-9)
    Jesus taught that the Day of the Lord would come "unexpectedly like a trap," and He warned to avoid drunkenness and to always be on watch. Paul also emphasizes the sudden onset of the Day of the Lord, he mentions drunkenness, and he explains that faithful Christians are "sons of the light and sons of the day" who, figuratively speaking, are always on watch and never fall asleep. While Jesus said that faithful believers will "escape all that is about to happen," Paul speaks of unbelievers saying "they will not escape."

    In 1 Thessalonians 1:10 Paul refers to Jesus as the One who "rescues us from the coming wrath." The purpose of the rapture is to protect the Church and to be the avenue of escape from the wrath that will fall upon the world during the Day of the Lord. With this relationship between the Church and the Day of the Lord in mind, it should be clear that there will hardly be any amount of time between the rapture and the onset of the Day of the Lord. The rapture comes first and then once the Church is protected the wrath of God will fall. After the rapture there will be no reason for a delay and Paul and Jesus both teach that judgment will come swiftly and suddenly.

    The question now arises, if the Day of the Lord begins within the sixth Seal, and if the Church is rescued away from the Day of the Lord's wrath in the nick of time, then shouldn't we be able to find evidence of the rapture in connection with the sixth Seal? We can even go one step further. We can use our own God-given common sense and combine it with our Biblical knowledge to come up with a hypothetical description of what it might look like in heaven immediately after the resurrection and rapture. Here is how I think it might look like:

    I think the focus will be on Jesus Christ, first and foremost. He is the foundation of the Church and His unselfish sacrifice is what makes eternal life for all humanity possible. I can't imagine a post-rapture scene without Him in it. Surrounding Jesus will be a huge throng of people, an unimaginable number, from every racial stock and nationality, and from every generation from the past two thousand years. This is what the eye might be expected to behold after the rapture, and the ear will probably be hearing things that are just as fantastic. I can only imagine that the triumphant Church will be praising and worshiping Jesus, and doing the same for God the Father. There will be joy to such a great degree that it brings tears to my eyes just trying to imagine it.

    Now I hate to burst a major bubble, but I know that it must be done. This scene does not occur anywhere in the book of Revelation prior to the sixth Seal. The Pre-Trib conclusion is that the heavenly post-rapture scene is unreported in Revelation, and we must assume that it takes place sometime prior to Revelation 4, after which the 24 Elders "represent" the Church in heaven, with Jesus gone missing and causing poor John a long moment of unnecessary and unexplained distress! This simply can't be the truth. The truth is that the post-rapture scene in heaven is described in Revelation and the description, as brief as it is, matches up perfectly with our expectations. Here is how that description begins:
    "After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: 'Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.' " (Revelation 7:9-10)
    This is the group that Jesus said would "escape" the Day of the Lord to "stand before the Son of Man" (Luke 21:36), and this is the group that Paul said would be "rescued" by Jesus from "the coming wrath" (1 Thessalonians 1:10) that would then "be with the Lord forever" (1 Thessalonians 4:17). This is the raptured and resurrected Church from all places and times from throughout the two thousand years of the Church Age.

    If the Day of the Lord begins within the sixth Seal, as we have determined, and if the rapture precedes the Day of the Lord, then we must conclude that the rapture of living believers from off of the face of the earth must take place either at the same time as or just before the initial sixth Seal events. My belief is that after Jesus breaks open the sixth Seal He will instantly enter into the earth's atmosphere and call up the saints, first the dead and then the living, and then we will meet the Lord in the air, just as Paul teaches in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18. The sign of the blood red moon is a unique sign found only once in Revelation, and I imagine that the rapture will probably take place at the same time as, or just before, the blood red moon becomes visible. That is why I gave the title of "Red Moon Rising" to both my book and my website. In my book I also refer to this particular rapture scenario as the "Red Moon Rapture" to distinguish it from the commonly taught Pre-Trib model as well as the Pre-Wrath and Post-Trib scenarios. It is a Sixth Seal Rapture, yet it is also a Pre-Trib Rapture model, which will be explained when we move forward into the timeline issues. For now we must still examine more of the evidence that supports a Sixth Seal Rapture.

    In 1 Thessalonians 4:15 Paul is clear that the resurrection of the dead will precede the rapture of the living. We find evidence for just such a resurrection, or at least evidence of preparation for a resurrection, at the very end of the fifth Seal (Revelation 6:11) when the martyred souls are given a gift of white robes. From the beginning of the fifth Seal to the situation after the sixth Seal we see that a change takes place to believers in heaven. In chapter five of my online study I write, "Certainly the change from existing under the altar to standing in front of the throne, and from at first not possessing white robes to finally wearing white robes, is evidence of a profound transition, a transition that can only be explained as the rapture and resurrection."

    Further evidence for a Sixth Seal Rapture comes from the descriptions of the aftermath of the shaking of the earth. From what Revelation describes it seems that every single person on the face of the earth reacts in fear and terror to the onset of the Day of the Lord. The point is that when the Day of the Lord begins there are are no believers present on the earth. This observation is supported by the subsequent saving and sealing of 144,000 men from the twelve tribes of Israel. In Revelation 14:4 this group is described as "firstfruits" who were "purchased from among men." Characterizing them as "firstfruits" makes sense only if they are the very first human beings led to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ during that brief window in time immediately after the rapture when the world is populated entirely with unbelievers. This new emphasis on Israel that comes on the heals of the sixth Seal also makes sense if the Church Age has just been completed with the rapture and resurrection of the Church.

    Viewing the rapture as occurring within the sixth Seal helps to clarify the relationship between the Church (in heaven) and Israel (on earth), and it also perfectly highlights the profound difference between believers and unbelievers and the different fates that each group can expect as a result of the Day of the Lord. Recall that Jesus said that faithful believers will "escape" the terrible events of "that day," while Paul says that unbelievers who are unprepared for the Day of the Lord "will not escape." Paul continues in this line of thinking by saying, "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9). Paul implies that the Day of the Lord will bring wrath to unbelievers, but true believers will receive salvation, so that "whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him" (5:10). In other words, whether believers are dead or alive we will all be taken up into heaven to be with the Lord.

    The warning from Paul is that unbelievers will "not escape" and the implication is that they will "suffer wrath," while the promise to believers is that they will "receive salvation." Now read again the different statements made by each of these two groups in the aftermath of the shaking of the earth that marks the beginning of the Day of the Lord:
    "Wrath" for the unbelieving world: “Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?’” (Revelation 6:15-17)

    "Salvation" for believers in heaven: “After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count... And they cried out in a loud voice: Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.' " (Revelation 7:9-10)

  2. #2
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    "After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: 'Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.' " (Revelation 7:9-10)
    This is the group that Jesus said would "escape" the Day of the Lord to "stand before the Son of Man" (Luke 21:36), and this is the group that Paul said would be "rescued" by Jesus from "the coming wrath" (1 Thessalonians 1:10) that would then "be with the Lord forever" (1 Thessalonians 4:17). This is the raptured and resurrected Church from all places and times from throughout the two thousand years of the Church Age.

    This is not the rapture of the church, this is speaking of saints who have been martyred during the Tribulation period. When you continue on further in the chapter you will have one of the elders (who represents the chuch) ask who are these and where do they come from. The answer he already knows.

    Revelation 7:11-17
    11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
    "Amen!
    Praise and glory
    and wisdom and thanks and honor
    and power and strength
    be to our God for ever and ever.
    Amen!"

    13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"
    14I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
    "they are before the throne of God
    and serve him day and night in his temple;
    and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
    16Never again will they hunger;
    never again will they thirst.
    The sun will not beat upon them,
    nor any scorching heat.
    17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
    he will lead them to springs of living water.
    And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

    The twenty four elders represent the presence of the church in heaven with Christ. Look back to Rev 4 and you will find the church has already been raptured before any of the seals are opened.

    Revelation 4:4
    4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.

    Revelation 5
    1Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" 3But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."

    6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits[a] of God sent out into all the earth. 7He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. 8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9And they sang a new song:
    "You are worthy to take the scroll
    and to open its seals,
    because you were slain,
    and with your blood you purchased men for God
    from every tribe and language and people and nation.
    10You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
    and they will reign on the earth."
    11Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. 12In a loud voice they sang:
    "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain,
    to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength
    and honor and glory and praise!" 13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
    "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
    be praise and honor and glory and power,
    for ever and ever!" 14The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.

    The church is raptured and they are in heaven praising the Lord because He was slain and He is the only one who can open the scroll. The scroll is opened and as each seal is removed judgment comes.

    1. The one who brings a false peace.
    2. Peace is taken away and killing begins.
    3. Food become costly because of the wars.
    4. Death and famine
    5. Saints under the altar who had been killed since the
    opening of the second seal.
    6. Man realizes that God's wrath has come upon them and they do not repent but instead they try to hide .

    Once again the church is in heaven before the seals are open.

    Revelation 4

    The Throne in Heaven

    1After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this." 2At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. 3And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian. A rainbow, resembling an emerald, encircled the throne. 4Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. 5From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings and peals of thunder. Before the throne, seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God. 6Also before the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.
    In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 7The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 8Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come." 9Whenever the living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to him who sits on the throne and who lives for ever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:
    11"You are worthy, our Lord and God,
    to receive glory and honor and power,
    for you created all things,
    and by your will they were created
    and have their being."
    John 8:31-32



    31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”


    Dizzy

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    An excellent subject, yet only 2 posts?

    To start, I'd like to hear more about the 24 elders. I can understand how they might represent the Church, but not why their presence indicates that the Church has already been raptured at this point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by immortality View Post
    The Sixth Seal Rapture of the Church

    By Peter D. Goodgame


    There are several important New Testament passages that connect the rapture of the Church with the Day of the Lord. We are already familiar with the statement given by Jesus:
    “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.” (Luke 21:34-36)
    In this passage Jesus describes the rapture as an escape from the terrible events of "that day" which can only refer to the Day of the Lord. In Paul's explanation of the rapture and the Day of the Lord it seems that he was intimately familiar with the teachings of Jesus on the same subject:
    "Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:1-9)
    Jesus taught that the Day of the Lord would come "unexpectedly like a trap," and He warned to avoid drunkenness and to always be on watch. Paul also emphasizes the sudden onset of the Day of the Lord, he mentions drunkenness, and he explains that faithful Christians are "sons of the light and sons of the day" who, figuratively speaking, are always on watch and never fall asleep. While Jesus said that faithful believers will "escape all that is about to happen," Paul speaks of unbelievers saying "they will not escape."

    In 1 Thessalonians 1:10 Paul refers to Jesus as the One who "rescues us from the coming wrath." The purpose of the rapture is to protect the Church and to be the avenue of escape from the wrath that will fall upon the world during the Day of the Lord. With this relationship between the Church and the Day of the Lord in mind, it should be clear that there will hardly be any amount of time between the rapture and the onset of the Day of the Lord. The rapture comes first and then once the Church is protected the wrath of God will fall. After the rapture there will be no reason for a delay and Paul and Jesus both teach that judgment will come swiftly and suddenly.

    The question now arises, if the Day of the Lord begins within the sixth Seal, and if the Church is rescued away from the Day of the Lord's wrath in the nick of time, then shouldn't we be able to find evidence of the rapture in connection with the sixth Seal? We can even go one step further. We can use our own God-given common sense and combine it with our Biblical knowledge to come up with a hypothetical description of what it might look like in heaven immediately after the resurrection and rapture. Here is how I think it might look like:

    I think the focus will be on Jesus Christ, first and foremost. He is the foundation of the Church and His unselfish sacrifice is what makes eternal life for all humanity possible. I can't imagine a post-rapture scene without Him in it. Surrounding Jesus will be a huge throng of people, an unimaginable number, from every racial stock and nationality, and from every generation from the past two thousand years. This is what the eye might be expected to behold after the rapture, and the ear will probably be hearing things that are just as fantastic. I can only imagine that the triumphant Church will be praising and worshiping Jesus, and doing the same for God the Father. There will be joy to such a great degree that it brings tears to my eyes just trying to imagine it.

    Now I hate to burst a major bubble, but I know that it must be done. This scene does not occur anywhere in the book of Revelation prior to the sixth Seal. The Pre-Trib conclusion is that the heavenly post-rapture scene is unreported in Revelation, and we must assume that it takes place sometime prior to Revelation 4, after which the 24 Elders "represent" the Church in heaven, with Jesus gone missing and causing poor John a long moment of unnecessary and unexplained distress! This simply can't be the truth. The truth is that the post-rapture scene in heaven is described in Revelation and the description, as brief as it is, matches up perfectly with our expectations. Here is how that description begins:
    "After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: 'Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.' " (Revelation 7:9-10)
    This is the group that Jesus said would "escape" the Day of the Lord to "stand before the Son of Man" (Luke 21:36), and this is the group that Paul said would be "rescued" by Jesus from "the coming wrath" (1 Thessalonians 1:10) that would then "be with the Lord forever" (1 Thessalonians 4:17). This is the raptured and resurrected Church from all places and times from throughout the two thousand years of the Church Age.

    If the Day of the Lord begins within the sixth Seal, as we have determined, and if the rapture precedes the Day of the Lord, then we must conclude that the rapture of living believers from off of the face of the earth must take place either at the same time as or just before the initial sixth Seal events. My belief is that after Jesus breaks open the sixth Seal He will instantly enter into the earth's atmosphere and call up the saints, first the dead and then the living, and then we will meet the Lord in the air, just as Paul teaches in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18. The sign of the blood red moon is a unique sign found only once in Revelation, and I imagine that the rapture will probably take place at the same time as, or just before, the blood red moon becomes visible. That is why I gave the title of "Red Moon Rising" to both my book and my website. In my book I also refer to this particular rapture scenario as the "Red Moon Rapture" to distinguish it from the commonly taught Pre-Trib model as well as the Pre-Wrath and Post-Trib scenarios. It is a Sixth Seal Rapture, yet it is also a Pre-Trib Rapture model, which will be explained when we move forward into the timeline issues. For now we must still examine more of the evidence that supports a Sixth Seal Rapture.

    In 1 Thessalonians 4:15 Paul is clear that the resurrection of the dead will precede the rapture of the living. We find evidence for just such a resurrection, or at least evidence of preparation for a resurrection, at the very end of the fifth Seal (Revelation 6:11) when the martyred souls are given a gift of white robes. From the beginning of the fifth Seal to the situation after the sixth Seal we see that a change takes place to believers in heaven. In chapter five of my online study I write, "Certainly the change from existing under the altar to standing in front of the throne, and from at first not possessing white robes to finally wearing white robes, is evidence of a profound transition, a transition that can only be explained as the rapture and resurrection."

    Further evidence for a Sixth Seal Rapture comes from the descriptions of the aftermath of the shaking of the earth. From what Revelation describes it seems that every single person on the face of the earth reacts in fear and terror to the onset of the Day of the Lord. The point is that when the Day of the Lord begins there are are no believers present on the earth. This observation is supported by the subsequent saving and sealing of 144,000 men from the twelve tribes of Israel. In Revelation 14:4 this group is described as "firstfruits" who were "purchased from among men." Characterizing them as "firstfruits" makes sense only if they are the very first human beings led to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ during that brief window in time immediately after the rapture when the world is populated entirely with unbelievers. This new emphasis on Israel that comes on the heals of the sixth Seal also makes sense if the Church Age has just been completed with the rapture and resurrection of the Church.

    Viewing the rapture as occurring within the sixth Seal helps to clarify the relationship between the Church (in heaven) and Israel (on earth), and it also perfectly highlights the profound difference between believers and unbelievers and the different fates that each group can expect as a result of the Day of the Lord. Recall that Jesus said that faithful believers will "escape" the terrible events of "that day," while Paul says that unbelievers who are unprepared for the Day of the Lord "will not escape." Paul continues in this line of thinking by saying, "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9). Paul implies that the Day of the Lord will bring wrath to unbelievers, but true believers will receive salvation, so that "whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him" (5:10). In other words, whether believers are dead or alive we will all be taken up into heaven to be with the Lord.

    The warning from Paul is that unbelievers will "not escape" and the implication is that they will "suffer wrath," while the promise to believers is that they will "receive salvation." Now read again the different statements made by each of these two groups in the aftermath of the shaking of the earth that marks the beginning of the Day of the Lord:
    "Wrath" for the unbelieving world: “Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?’” (Revelation 6:15-17)
    "Salvation" for believers in heaven: “After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count... And they cried out in a loud voice: Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.' " (Revelation 7:9-10)
    1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 (New King James Version)

    1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 (New King James Version)

    1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, [apostasy] and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
    5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
    "...For I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict, or resist...Luke 21:15"...I am looking for the remnant....

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Ashanti View Post
    1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 (New King James Version)

    1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 (New King James Version)

    1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, [apostasy] and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
    5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
    I'm confused where the conflict is between these verses and the timing of the Sixth Seal Rapture.
    ----------------------------------------------
    When the plain sense of Scripture make sense, seek no other sense.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by DigReal View Post
    An excellent subject, yet only 2 posts?

    To start, I'd like to hear more about the 24 elders. I can understand how they might represent the Church, but not why their presence indicates that the Church has already been raptured at this point?
    They represent the 12 apostles and the 12 sons of Jacob. 12+12 =24

    Re 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

    Re 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    Note they sat on 24 seats........

    Re 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

    So the 24 elders are just that elders of the church and of Israel. They in no way represent the entire church body as the poster suggests.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    They represent the 12 apostles and the 12 sons of Jacob. 12+12 =24

    Re 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

    Re 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    Note they sat on 24 seats........

    Re 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

    So the 24 elders are just that elders of the church and of Israel. They in no way represent the entire church body as the poster suggests.
    Thanks, ross3421. That does make some sense to me. If anyone wants to add to that, or post another pov, I'd be most appreciative.

    Or, should I start another thread on the 24 elders? My current studies leave me very curious on this subject ( and I don't want to distract from the op).

  8. #8
    I too believe the rapture occurs during the 6th seal. Job 14 reveals that the heavens must be no more before men can rise - Job told us that he is waiting for his time to be changed.

    Job 14:12 "So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more..."
    In the 6th seal - heaven departs!

    Job 14:14 "...all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come."
    ,,,,
    And we know that Job doesn't expect that change to occur with him till the heavens be no more.

    Tying this to what Paul wrote - as to we shall all be changed - at the last trump - for the trumpet shall sound

    This means the last trumpet must also sound when the heavens are no more time comes.

    So in Rev. 7 - we find what occurs not just after the time of the heavens depart - but a whole new scene given to reveal the finer details of what time comes during those seals.
    During the seals - comes the great tribulation.

    Take Rev. 6 - end it - then let Rev. 7 be told as an "after" part. As in afer John was done watching seals 1-6 get opened - he saw new stuff. This new stuff needs to be placed properly within the previous seals to understand its timing.

    Just as - Rev. 17 - is an after type of chapter, so is 18.
    At Rev. 18 - the angel that was telling John about the mystery, Babylon city time has ended.
    Just as - Rev. 19 - is an "after" type of chapter. A story by itself - that fits in with other prophecy already seen and heard.

    The rapture occurs before the 7th seal is opened at the start of chapter 8. Then John sees the same seven angel set again.

  9. #9
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    While I understand why you believe the 24 are the apostles + the sons of Jacob. If they are in heaven physically sitting, why would God bring them to his Throne, but not the rest of his people? I'm having a hard time understanding this point.

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    I believe the rapture happens BEFORE the seals are opened.... I have several reasons for this.... The true Church is taken away from the tribulation as is evidenced in Revelation 3 with Jesus' kind words to the church at Philadelphia....

    The vast crowd without number are those from all nations who died during the tribulation....

    Rev 7:9 After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes and held palm branches in their hands.
    Rev 7:10 And they were shouting with a mighty shout, "Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne and from the Lamb!"
    Rev 7:11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living beings. And they fell before the throne with their faces to the ground and worshiped God.
    Rev 7:12 They sang, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and strength belong to our God forever and ever! Amen."
    Rev 7:13 Then one of the twenty-four elders asked me, "Who are these who are clothed in white? Where did they come from?"
    Rev 7:14 And I said to him, "Sir, you are the one who knows." Then he said to me, "These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.

    Notice in verse 14 the Elder answered his own question.... Stating that "these are the ones who died in the great tribulation...."

    Prophecy experts all agree that the tribulation is a seven year period with three sets of seven "judgments".... Seven seals.... Seven trumpets.... And seven vials.... Or bowls.... The first of the four horsemen released with the first seal broken is the Antichrist.... So the rapture happens before the Antichrist is made known.... Because the true church will be spared the "hour of trial" which is to test "those who belong to the world".... Which is not us....

    I have a blog called SHOOT'N FROM THE HIP.... And it has my thoughts on the subject.... The entry is "Left behind"....

  11. #11
    Dead thread...?

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    So there are two raptures then? When Jesus comes as a thief(Rev 7:9), and when Jesus comes in great power and glory(Rev 14:14).

    So then there will be two periods of tribulation. Babylon the Harlot and then the beast from the bottomless pit.
    For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkMirror View Post
    So there are two raptures then? When Jesus comes as a thief(Rev 7:9), and when Jesus comes in great power and glory(Rev 14:14).

    So then there will be two periods of tribulation. Babylon the Harlot and then the beast from the bottomless pit.
    Not sure what you are saying.... Rev. 7:9 is the rapture.... Rev. 14:14 is the glorious appearing when Jesus sets foot on Mount Olivet.... And it splits in two.... One happens before the trib.... One happens after....

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkMirror View Post
    So there are two raptures then? When Jesus comes as a thief(Rev 7:9), and when Jesus comes in great power and glory(Rev 14:14).

    So then there will be two periods of tribulation. Babylon the Harlot and then the beast from the bottomless pit.
    No, one Rapture and then Second Comming about 7 years later. The seperate events.
    BelieversNotes.com - Bible Study Notes
    End Times - The Days We Live in Short Video

    For it is better that he say to you, 'Come up here,' Than that you should be put lower in the presence of the prince, Whom your eyes have seen. ~ Proverbs 25:7

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    There is no pre-trib rapture position seen in Scriptures:

    1. Matthew 24:29 states that immediately AFTER the great tribulation of Mat 24:21,29, the 6th seal will be opened (Mat 24:29-31) and then Jesus will come down to resurrect his people that were in heaven and rapture those that will be on earth (Mar 13:27). That means, that when the 6th seal is open (Rev 6:12-17), the GT is over.

    2. Rev 6:12-17 states the day of wrath arrives after the 6th seal. Since the great tribulation ends at the 6th seal; that means the day of wrath arrives AFTER the great tribulation.

    3. The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 is called “the day of the Lord” three verses later (1Th 5:2). But the Bible says the day of the Lord will not come until the 6th seal is open (Acts 2:20, Joel 2:31).

    4. The rapture (the day of the Lord) will take place on the day that God’s wrath is poured on earth (2 Thes 1:6-8; Isa 13:9-13; Psalm 18:7-19; Rev 14:13-20).

    5. The second coming will be like in the days of Lot, that the SAME DAY that Lot was taken away by angels, on THE SAME DAY fire and brimstone rained on this world (Luke 17:29-30; Gen 19:22).

    6. The Church will rest when we get raptured; and that comes after the GT (2Th 1:6-8) on the day that Jesus comes in flaming fire to punish this world.

    7. The Bible states the day of wrath arrives at the 7th trumpet (Rev 11:18).

    8. The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 states that there will be no rapture until FIRST there is a resurrection from the dead. Job 14:12 states there will be no resurrection from the dead until the 6th seal is open (Rev 6:12-17). Therefore, there cannot be any rapture until the 6th seal is open.

    9. The Bible mentions the first resurrection (of the righteous) after the seals, trumpets and vials of Revelation… in Rev 20:1-5.

    10. The Bible states that Jesus will resurrect his elect (John 6:39,40,44) on the last day. The last day is when time runs out, when time is no more, and that day is clearly stated to arrive at the 7th trumpet (Rev 10:6-7). Ephesians 1:10 states that the second coming (with resurrection and rapture) will occur at the fullness of times (another term for the last day, when there is time no more).

    11. According to 1Cor 15:52, the rapture will take place at the last trumpet (not before the first trumpet). The word “last” implies there will be some before and none after. The last trumpet in the Bible is the 7th trumpet.

    12. The Bible states in Acts 3:21 that Jesus must remain in heaven (will not come down to rapture us) until the time of restitution of all things. Webster dictionary defines “restitution” as “something restored back to its original owner”. The 7th trumpet is also the time when all the kingdoms of this world will be restored back to their rightful owner (Jesus Christ, Rev 11:15).

    13. 2Thes 2:1-3 states the rapture (our gathering together with Him) will not take place until the antichrist is revealed first (not the other way around).

    14. The day that comes as a thief in the night is after the GT, after the 6th seal, after all the trumpets and vials (see Rev 16:15; 2Pe 3:10; Joel 2:1-11). It is definitively not a day before the end of the GT.

    15. The rapture should not be a day that takes us by surprise. It should not come as a thief in the night for his elect (1Th 5:2; Rev 3:3; 1Cor 2:9-10). We are not supposed to be in darkness because the deep secrets of God the Father have been made available to us the Church through the Spirit.

    16. We should seek first the kingdom of God (Mat 6:33). If we do that, everything else will be added unto us. The time of the kingdom of God is the Great Tribulation (Rev 12:10). The Bible says we must go through much tribulation before entering in the Kingdom of God (Acts 14:22). It also says we are appointed to go through tribulation (1Th 3:3-4). The cross brings power (1Cor 1:18 ). I am exceedingly joyful in tribulation (2Cor 7:4). The disciples were happy to be beaten for the name of Jesus (Acts 5:40-42). If they beat Jesus and crucified him, what would they do to the Church? (See Luk 23:31). The Bible says that in this world we shall have tribulation (John 16:33).

    17. The Bible calls it the day of Christ when the bride of Jesus (the Church) is presented to him blameless and spotless (1Th 3:13; 1Cor 1:7-8; Phi 1:6,10; Phi 2:15-16; 2Th 2:1-3; 2Cor 1:14; 1Th 2:19; 1Th 5:23). But 2Th 2:1-3 states that day of Christ will not come until FIRST, there be a falling away and the man of sin be revealed. The falling away has to happen first, then the Antichrist has to be revealed, and then, after the antichrist is revealed, then comes our gathering together with him (the rapture), the day of Christ.

    18. In the parables of Matthew 13, there is a prophetic order showing the history of the Church from beginning to end. It starts with the sower and it ends at the second coming (harvest time). Israel represents the treasure that was hidden and then found in 1948 (Exo 19:5; Psalm 135:4). After that one comes the pearl (a pearl is created when a grain of sand irritates the oyster and that speaks of tribulation). After the pearl, comes the net, the end of the world.

    19. The Church is refined, made blames and spotless, perfect, through affliction and tribulation, just like Jesus (Heb 2:10; Daniel 11:35; Isa 48:10; 1Pet 4:1; 1Pet 5:10).

    20. The greatest revival in history will take place during the GT (Rev 7:14). It does not make sense to see that happen when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way.

    21. The specialty of the HS is to comfort God’s people that are going through tribulation (2Cor 1:4). It does not make sense for God to take the Comforter out of the way, to leave and forsake his people (those that died for him during the GT as shown in Rev 7:14) when we need him the most.

    22. The blessed hope that Christians look for in Titus 2:13 is eternal life (Tit 1:2; Tit 3:7) which will come after the GT (we are still mortals, eternal life will arrive in the world to come, Mat 10:30).

    23. Christians do not look for a rapture before the GT, we look for the coming of the Lord at the end of the GT (2Pet 3:12).

    24. The Bible says that God can not lie. But it just so happens, that God said that, when He declared that the blessed hope is eternal life (Tit 1:2).

    25. When Jesus comes back in the clouds for us (the Church), the Bible says that every eye shall see him (Rev 1:7).

    26. The reason why God send plagues to Egypt was to show he is so powerful, that he can pour plagues on the wicked while sparing his elect, without having to remove his elect from the planet (Exo 11:7). Jesus is against a doctrine that states that God has to remove his elect to protect his people from his own plagues (John 17:15). We need to pray like Jesus.

    27. When God promised to KEEP us FROM the hour of temptation (Rev 3:10; the GT), he did not mean removing us from the planet (John 17:15).

    28. Parallels: 7th seal = 7th trumpet = 7th vial (they all come with thunders, lightning, voices, a great earthquake and great hail which are the signs of God coming down to earth as shown in Exo 19:16-19).

    29. Parallels 6th seal happens at the end of the 6th trumpet = 6th vial. Note: the 6th trumpet and the 6th vial deal with the Euphrates river and Armageddon, which ends at the 6th seal (Rev 9:13-19; Rev 16:12-16). See also Zep 3:8; Zec 12:3-4, and Luke 21:20-25. It is in the midst of the 6th vial that Jesus said that he will come as a thief (Rev 16:15).

    30. The Bible says that the 5th seal is almost at the end of the GT (Rev 6:9-11).

    31. The Bible is blatantly clear when it states that the Jews are part of the one body of Christ, the Church (1Cor 12:13; Gal 3:28; Eph 2:14-19; Eph 3:4-6; Col 3:11; 1Cor 10:1-4; Act 13:26; Rom 1:16; Rom 3:1-9,24-30; Rom 4:16; Rom chapters 9,10 & 11; Rom 12:1-5). Concerning the truth that the Jews are part of the church, the Bible says: “Let God be true and everyman a liar” (Rom 3:1-4).

    32. Everywhere in Scriptures that God shows the rapture, it is shown after the 6th seal or at the day of wrath (Psalm 18; Isa 13; 1Th 3:13; 1Cor 15:52; 2Th 1:6-8; Mat 24:21-31; Rev 14:14-15)

    Shalom

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