What i am trying to get at is this:
Chapter 19 concludes the seven year Tribulation Perid with Christ's coming
Chapter 20 continues with the events of Chapter 19 and it doesn't seem to be any time gap between the two.
Chapter 20 is only the resurrection of the Tribulation saints. Therefore when Christ returns with his armies in chapter 19 He must of taken them prior in order to return with them.
Clearly, the events in Chapter 20 come after the events of Chapter 19. Therefore the events as described in 1 Thes 4 had to of taken place at a prior time.... pre-trib rapture.
Rev 20 calls it the FIRST RESURRECTION, but that violates the pre-trib rapture position and as such, it must be explained away. And people do that by saying, there was one before, there must be one before for the pretrib to be true. But there are none. Job 14:12 states there will be none until the 6th seal. John 6 (and I showed you that) states it is going to happen at the last day (which the Bible states comes at the 7th trumpet), not 7 years before the last day. You said:
<<Clearly, the events in Chapter 20 come after the events of Chapter 19. Therefore the events as described in 1 Thes 4 had to of taken place at a prior time.... pre-trib rapture.>>
Clearly because it does not fit your theology. Clearly because it has to be like that for pretrib to be true. Clearly because you have convinced yourself that millions of Christians and TV preachers can't be wrong. But there are no Scriptures to support it. NONE! A pre-trib rapture can not happen without violating those 32 points I showed you before. You have to explain Scripture away by saying the trumpet is really before the first trumpet of Revelation (When the Scripture calls it the last trumpet). The last trumpet in the Bible is the 7th trumpet because there are some before and NONE after. But that is how I see it, and I am not the one that determines which is the correct interpretation of prophetic passages. You have to figure it out yourself without man's influence.
According to your view... Satan is bound(Rev 20) and then Christ returns with all his saints(Rev 19)... No, Christ returns with all His saints(Rev 19) and then Satain is bound(Rev 20).
But one day we will find out. One day all will find out. If you are right, I want to go with you to be with the Lord as soon as possible.
Peace ! (Shalom)
1. Matthew 24:29 states that immediately AFTER the great tribulation of Mat 24:21, the 6th seal will be opened (Mat 24:29-31) and then Jesus will come down to resurrect his people that were in heaven and rapture those that will be on earth (Mar 13:27). That means, that when the 6th seal is open (Rev 6:12-17), the GT is over.
2. Rev 6:12-17 states the day of wrath arrives after the 6th seal. Since the great tribulation ends at the 6th seal; that means the day of wrath arrives AFTER the great tribulation.
3. The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 is called “the day of the Lord” three verses later (1Th 5:2). But the Bible says the day of the Lord will not come until the 6th seal is open (Acts 2:20, Joel 2:31).
4. The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 states that there will be no rapture until FIRST there is a resurrection from the dead. Job 14:12 states there will be no resurrection from the dead until the 6th seal is open (Rev 6:12-17). Therefore, there cannot be any rapture until the 6th seal is open.
These are passages that clearly state the order of things, in time. And they clearly violate the pretrib rapture position.
You may ask then who is the elect in Mat 24:31... My answer... Jews. Could this be a fulfillment of Isaiah 65:9-25?
Who is the one who opens the first and all the seals? The Lamb of course. Seems to me it is the wrath of the Lamb being He is the one opening the seals.2. Rev 6:12-17 states the day of wrath arrives after the 6th seal. Since the great tribulation ends at the 6th seal; that means the day of wrath arrives AFTER the great tribulation.
Often "the day of the Lord" is referred to as a day of woe, evil, vengeance from God, of indescribable descrution; "the day of his [God's] wrath" (Psalm 110:5); "a descruction from the Almighty" (Joel 1:15).... Also read Amos 5:18 and Zephaniah 2:2,3The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 is called “the day of the Lord” three verses later (1Th 5:2). But the Bible says the day of the Lord will not come until the 6th seal is open
The day of the Lord is clearly not one literal day. The day of the Lord includes the Great Tribulation period and it especially to Israel and involves the messiah coming to her rescue at Armageddon and exeuting judgement upon those who have mistreated her.
Was not Christ resurrected? Was He not the firstfruits? and then each in his own order afterwords?The rapture of 1Th 4:16-17 states that there will be no rapture until FIRST there is a resurrection from the dead. Job 14:12 states there will be no resurrection from the dead until the 6th seal is open (Rev 6:12-17). Therefore, there cannot be any rapture until the 6th seal is open.
Again the events in Revelation 20 come after the events in Revelation 19.
Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
I have another question... When does the seperation of the sheep and goats take place and to whom?Originally Posted by Servant89
Pretribers look at Rev 4:1 where John is told "Come up hither" and pretribers say: John represents the church there, to prove there is a rapture before the tribulation.
Jn 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
New here - Glad to find this place!
I'm very familiar with the 6th seal rapture.
I have some questions though.
Servant89 - you have stated (correctly) that the rapture cannot take place until the 6th seal is opened.
We also know that the rapture takes place as the 7th trumpet begins to sound (Rev. 10:7, 11:15)
Do you mean to say that the seals & trumpets run congruently?
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
What is the "mystery"?
1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
We also see after the 6th seal in Rev. 7:15 & 17 that these people of every tribe, nation & tongue are seen standing before the throne and all tears will be wiped away.
HOWEVER, Revelation 15:8 says
Rev 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
And Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
This is when John sees a new heaven & earth.
So I'm trying to figure out the sequence of Seals, Trumpets, vials.
It seems as if the 6th seal rapture is possible, but no one can enter the temple until the last vial is poured out.
If so, where is everyone until that time?
And if the seals and trumpets do not take place at the same time, but are instead in sequential order, How do we account for the remaining time?
I also notice this:
Acts 2:20 - The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Revelation 6:12 - And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
No doubt, the moon turns to blood BEFORE the day of the Lord.
However Matthew 24:29 says Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
It doesn't say the moon turns to blood, it says after the tribulation the moon does not give light.
Because of this, I'm wondering if the 6th seal is NOT the end of the GT.
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