Once saved always saved : Amen Praise the Lord

[BroRog]

He wasn't speaking of just Himself, I didn't say He was speaiing of just Himself. However He is one of the the group "we."

No doubt. So who are the others? His readers or someone else?

[Butch5]

First, I'm not the only one to point out that all of our sins are in the future relative to the cross. So your distinction between past sins and future sins is really meaningless.

Second, your interpretation of 1John needs work because John is not giving a command, i.e. confess each sin as you do it. He is making a comparison between those who say they have no sin and those who confess their sins, which is descriptive not prescriptive.

So, what is at stake? Why do you insist that our future sins are not pre-forgiven? Is there some reason why you need this to be true?

BroRog,

This is clear, all of our sins were future at the cross, however this has "nothing" to do with what I said. What I said was, all of "OUR" past sins were forgiven when we believed. The sins we committed "before" we were saved, these are the past sins. God overlooked our sins before we were saved, Paul says that Christ, through faith, is a propitiation for our past sins, the ones we committed before we were saved. He makes "no" mention of future sins being forgiven. Peter also says this,


2 Peter 1:5-11 ( KJV ) 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

He was purged of his "OLD" sins, he doesn't say all sins, he doesn't say future sins, he says old sins.


Romans 3:24-25 ( KJV ) 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To be a propitiation for sins that are "past." He desn't say all sins, he doesn't say future sins, he says past sins.

BroRog---So, what is at stake? Why do you insist that our future sins are not pre-forgiven? Is there some reason why you need this to be true?

It is what Scripture says. Is there some reason you need it not to be true?

[Veretax]

BroRog,

This is clear, all of our sins were future at the cross, however this has "nothing" to do with what I said. What I said was, all of "OUR" past sins were forgiven when we believed. The sins we committed "before" we were saved, these are the past sins. God overlooked our sins before we were saved, Paul says that Christ, through faith, is a propitiation for our past sins, the ones we committed before we were saved. He makes "no" mention of future sins being forgiven. Peter also says this,


2 Peter 1:5-11 ( KJV ) 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

He was purged of his "OLD" sins, he doesn't say all sins, he doesn't say future sins, he says old sins.


Romans 3:24-25 ( KJV ) 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To be a propitiation for sins that are "past." He desn't say all sins, he doesn't say future sins, he says past sins.



It is what Scripture says. Is there some reason you need it not to be true?

So your saying that Christ's sacrifice on the Cross only saves from Sin's before we are saved? If that is so then why do we not only try to save people right on the cusp of death. Why push to evangelize the lost if they are just going to have to live according to the law after they are saved? Does the Law save?

[Partaker of Christ]

BroRog,

This is clear, all of our sins were future at the cross, however this has "nothing" to do with what I said. What I said was, all of "OUR" past sins were forgiven when we believed. The sins we committed "before" we were saved, these are the past sins. God overlooked our sins before we were saved, Paul says that Christ, through faith, is a propitiation for our past sins, the ones we committed before we were saved. He makes "no" mention of future sins being forgiven. Peter also says this,


2 Peter 1:5-11 ( KJV ) 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

He was purged of his "OLD" sins, he doesn't say all sins, he doesn't say future sins, he says old sins.


Romans 3:24-25 ( KJV ) 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To be a propitiation for sins that are "past." He desn't say all sins, he doesn't say future sins, he says past sins.



It is what Scripture says. Is there some reason you need it not to be true?

Hi Butch

Paul speaks of sins past, in that they were never taken away, they were only covered. If animals sacrificed could take away our sins, then we would not have needed Jesus Christ to come.

[sheina maidle]

So your saying that Christ's sacrifice on the Cross only saves from Sin's before we are saved? If that is so then why do we not only try to save people right on the cusp of death. Why push to evangelize the lost if they are just going to have to live according to the law after they are saved? Does the Law save?

Great points! Amen!

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:1-2)

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (1 Peter 2:24)

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

These verses (and there are more) specifically state that Jesus died and shed His blood for the sins of the whole world...either His blood was and is sufficient to cover ALL sin (past, present, and future) or every person is still "dead in trespasses and sin" (Eph. 2:1), without hope of eternal salvation (on their way to hell).

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)

Praise the Lord!

[Butch5]

So your saying that Christ's sacrifice on the Cross only saves from Sin's before we are saved? If that is so then why do we not only try to save people right on the cusp of death. Why push to evangelize the lost if they are just going to have to live according to the law after they are saved? Does the Law save?

No, you are only getting part of what I said. The post you are responding to was to clarify a point in another post. Christ is a propitiation for all of our sins, however, when we believe, only our past sins, sins we committed before we were saved are forgiven. Someone said, when we are saved all of our sins, past, present, and future are forgiven. There is no mention of future sins being forgiven at the time when we're saved. Christ is a propitiation for our future sins, however they were not forgiven back at the time we were saved. That is what Paul and Peter are saying.

[Veretax]

No, you are only getting part of what I said. The post you are responding to was to clarify a point in another post. Christ is a propitiation for all of our sins, however, when we believe, only our past sins, sins we committed before we were saved are forgiven. Someone said, when we are saved all of our sins, past, present, and future are forgiven. There is no mention of future sins being forgiven at the time when we're saved. Christ is a propitiation for our future sins, however they were not forgiven back at the time we were saved. That is what Paul and Peter are saying.

Well I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on that point.

1Jo 2:2 - Show ContextAnd He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
It seems to me that you need to remember who John is writing to here. Christians. Christ is the Propitiation of the sins of believers, AND it is clear he is also the propitiation for the whole world. That to me seems to cover ALL sin save for the one unpardonable one that was specifically mentioned by Christ.

[Butch5]

Well I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you on that point.

1Jo 2:2 - Show ContextAnd He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
It seems to me that you need to remember who John is writing to here. Christians. Christ is the Propitiation of the sins of believers, AND it is clear he is also the propitiation for the whole world. That to me seems to cover ALL sin save for the one unpardonable one that was specifically mentioned by Christ.

I agree with you. It does cover all sin.

[Firstfruits]

I agree with you. It does cover all sin.

What I would say here is that Jesus can without doubt forgive all sin except one. If we therefore sin we know we can call upon Jeus to forgive us of sins that we have commtted, not yet to commit.

Firstfruits

[Butch5]

What I would say here is that Jesus can without doubt forgive all sin except one. If we therefore sin we know we can call upon Jeus to forgive us of sins that we have commtted, not yet to commit.

Firstfruits

That is the point I was trying to get across.

[BroRog]

That is the point I was trying to get across.

If we appropriate our propitiation by faith, and I agree with you here, then why can't I believe, by faith (as you put it) that my future sins are forgiven? I don't have to ask for forgiveness in the future because I already have faith in the promise that they will be forgiven. Why ask for something I already have?

I suspect that you have something else in mind laying behind your point about future sins. Are you afraid that if you accept that your sins will be forgiven that you will take a lax attitude toward sin?

[Butch5]

If we appropriate our propitiation by faith, and I agree with you here, then why can't I believe, by faith (as you put it) that my future sins are forgiven? I don't have to ask for forgiveness in the future because I already have faith in the promise that they will be forgiven. Why ask for something I already have?

I suspect that you have something else in mind laying behind your point about future sins. Are you afraid that if you accept that your sins will be forgiven that you will take a lax attitude toward sin?

Not at all, however, you have put your finger on it, when you said, will be forgiven. As long as we remain in Christ they will be forgiven.

What do you assume there is some reason other than Scripture, for my belief? This is not the first time you have asked that.

[angel_fire]

Wow, my head was spinning after reading for a few hours. Great post!!!

[Veretax]

Not at all, however, you have put your finger on it, when you said, will be forgiven. As long as we remain in Christ they will be forgiven.

What do you assume there is some reason other than Scripture, for my belief? This is not the first time you have asked that.

Wait, so your saying. Not sure if I'm getting this correctly, but.... That when we put our faith in Christ in our life time all sin in our past is forgiven, but now your saying that if we don't continue in Christ? If we don't remain? That will be taken away? Where is that taught in scripture?

And why would God/Christ tell us he is faithful and just to forgive our sins.. If he's not going to forgive us because we "slipped up"?




Do you not realize that Christ forgave the paralytic sins, even though that's not what he asked for?

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


It doesn't say, only if we remain in him,

Mt 9:2

2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you."

That so marveled the pharisee's that Jesus then said.
Mt 9:6 - Show ContextBut that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"--then He said to the paralytic, "Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."


I just fail to see where this is taught? The passage in 1st John teaches that if we confess he is faithful and just to forgive. It really gives no qualification about something else having to be done to be forgiven, nor should it for that would make our salvation one of works, and it isn't.

[My heart's Desire]

If we appropriate our propitiation by faith, and I agree with you here, then why can't I believe, by faith (as you put it) that my future sins are forgiven? I don't have to ask for forgiveness in the future because I already have faith in the promise that they will be forgiven. Why ask for something I already have?

Not to forget to mention that we see the verse through our eyes. We know our past sins, yet we don't know our future ones until they happen. Dare we forget that the moment the Lord Jesus saved us, God already knows the sins of the future as if they had already been committed and forgiven for a believer? When we confess our sins, do we really think that God didn't know about the sin until we committed it and confessed it? Is confession not for the continuation of unbroken fellowship? A riff between loved ones can cause a break in fellowship but doesn't break blood relationship.