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Thread: Once saved always saved : Amen Praise the Lord

  1. #196
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    [quote=Veretax;1874496]Wait, so your saying. Not sure if I'm getting this correctly, but.... That when we put our faith in Christ in our life time all sin in our past is forgiven, but now your saying that if we don't continue in Christ? If we don't remain? That will be taken away? Where is that taught in scripture?

    quote]


    We are not actually saved until the judgment, That is when we will ultimately be declared righteous or unrighteous. When we believe, God counts it as righteousness, we are not righteous, we are declared righteous by God. Now, once we are saved (by faith no works), we are in a relationship with God in Christ. Jesus says if you remain "in me", I will remain in you and the father will remain in you. He then says, if a man does not remain in me, he is cast off. So, once we enter into this relationship, (by grace no works) we are to remain "in Him". To remain "in Him" requires action on our part. Jesus said, he who keeps my commands, it is he who loves me, he who does not keep them does not love me.


    John 14:23-24 ( KJV ) 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.

    So, what are Jesus sayings?

    Luke 6:27-38 ( KJV ) 27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.32For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.34And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

    Matthew 5:23 ( KJV ) 23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;



    37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: 38Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.



    These are the sayings Jesus told us to keep, if we keep them we love Him, if we don't He says we don't love Him. These are also the same things that Jesus gave as the criteria He will use in the judgment,




    Matthew 25:31-46 ( KJV ) 31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



    So while we are initially saved by faith without works, Jesus makes it clear that if we are going to be saved at the final judgment we need to do these. It is clear that there are works we must do in order to be saved.



    Concerning, 1 John. Notice John is writing this to Christians, if every sin that they will ever commit was forgiven when they were saved, why is John saying, if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.? There would be no need for forgiveness if it was already done.



    Also consider Jesus words,




    Matthew 18:27-35 ( KJV ) 27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 28But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 29And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 31So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.



    forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:



    Jesus said if they didn't forgive others then God would not forgive them. And Jesus said this to the disciples, so obviously all sin was not forgiven at salvation. The final judgment will be made at the final judgment.





    continued,

  2. #197
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    Concerning Righteousness. If God declares us righteous when we are saved, is it permanent? Are we considered irrevocable justified? No. Consider what God said through Ezekiel,



    Ezekiel 3:16-21 ( KJV ) 16And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 17Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. 18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. 20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.



    Ezekiel 33:10-20 ( KJV ) 10Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live? 11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 12Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. 13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. 14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; 15If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live. 17Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. 18When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. 19But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. 20Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.



    This verse is powerful,



    13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.




    God has declared Him righteous, He calls him a righteous man and says he shall surely live. Is that not declared righteous? Yet God say in the day he trusts in his own righteousness (himself) and commits iniquity, he will die. So clearly, according to God, if He declares a man righteous, it is not permanent. The man must continue in being righteous or he will die.


  3. #198
    On Judgement Day, some people will have to find out that God can not stand the presents of sin.... Its like a stench to His nostrils.... who wants to be around someone who smelt like a skunk? No one... And why would God bring you in heaven when you have Sin all over you? He won't... If you were saved, and have sinned and you did not repent from it you are not saved... Paul says he dies daily, he repents daily so he wont have any sin in his life...

    Is Judas Iscariot going to heaven? He betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, didn't Jesus say it would be better if he would not have been born... and it said he repented himself.. but did not find godly repentance, like Peter... and why did Jesus say "Go and sin no more"?

    The Bible does not contradict itself... if people would accept what it teaches and not try to use God's Word against itself to fit peoples beliefs... it works together and you would see what it means.. but people would look at John 3:16 and say they are saved just reading that one scripture, and not do anything else, and same goes with this once saved always saved...

    God's people perish because of the lack of knowledge... It tears me up to see people who believe this false doctrine... Just like how my heart goes out to the lost souls, so does my heart goes out to blinded followers of the false-doctrine...

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisJ View Post
    On Judgement Day, some people will have to find out that God can not stand the presents of sin.... Its like a stench to His nostrils.... who wants to be around someone who smelt like a skunk? No one... And why would God bring you in heaven when you have Sin all over you? He won't... If you were saved, and have sinned and you did not repent from it you are not saved... Paul says he dies daily, he repents daily so he wont have any sin in his life...

    Is Judas Iscariot going to heaven? He betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, didn't Jesus say it would be better if he would not have been born... and it said he repented himself.. but did not find godly repentance, like Peter... and why did Jesus say "Go and sin no more"?

    The Bible does not contradict itself... if people would accept what it teaches and not try to use God's Word against itself to fit peoples beliefs... it works together and you would see what it means.. but people would look at John 3:16 and say they are saved just reading that one scripture, and not do anything else, and same goes with this once saved always saved...

    God's people perish because of the lack of knowledge... It tears me up to see people who believe this false doctrine... Just like how my heart goes out to the lost souls, so does my heart goes out to blinded followers of the false-doctrine...
    I have to agree with you.


  5. #200
    It just hurts me to see people who believe this...

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisJ View Post
    It just hurts me to see people who believe this...
    What are you talking about and why does it hurt?

  7. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by BroRog View Post
    What are you talking about and why does it hurt?

    Why are people so hard at understanding... I am not hurt because of any manner of offense or anything like that... I hurt because people they are lost, and i just begin to think on how the churches are today.. and compare them in the beginning churches.. and how much compromise happened... I may be over people's heads or maybe not i just... agree or disagree, it don't matter. In the book of Proverbs.. God said my people perish because of the lack of knowledge... and they have the lack of knowledge because they are not taught the truth, bits and pieces told here and there... You can't complete a puzzles by just bits and pieces... So how can a Christian grow when he is only fed a small amount?

    I'm just gonna stop i'm sorry i just think to much, and I know a lot of people don't understand.. sometimes its those things between you and God.. its hard to explain to others.. but any ways..

    God bless you all, and have a hand of protection over all.
    In Jesus Name

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisJ View Post
    Why are people so hard at understanding... I am not hurt because of any manner of offense or anything like that... I hurt because people they are lost, and i just begin to think on how the churches are today.. and compare them in the beginning churches.. and how much compromise happened... I may be over people's heads or maybe not i just... agree or disagree, it don't matter. In the book of Proverbs.. God said my people perish because of the lack of knowledge... and they have the lack of knowledge because they are not taught the truth, bits and pieces told here and there... You can't complete a puzzles by just bits and pieces... So how can a Christian grow when he is only fed a small amount?

    I'm just gonna stop i'm sorry i just think to much, and I know a lot of people don't understand.. sometimes its those things between you and God.. its hard to explain to others.. but any ways..

    God bless you all, and have a hand of protection over all.
    In Jesus Name
    Are you saying you feel hurt because of the OSAS doctrine?
    Knowledge is only a part of all this my friend Satan has tons of Knowledge. But I think I know what you mean.
    God bless you too
    Randy
    And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    Concerning Righteousness. If God declares us righteous when we are saved, is it permanent? Are we considered irrevocable justified? No. Consider what God said through Ezekiel,



    Ezekiel 3:16-21 ( KJV ) 16And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 17Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. 18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. 20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.



    Ezekiel 33:10-20 ( KJV ) 10Therefore, O thou son of man, speak unto the house of Israel; Thus ye speak, saying, If our transgressions and our sins be upon us, and we pine away in them, how should we then live? 11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 12Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. 13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. 14Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; 15If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live. 17Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. 18When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. 19But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby. 20Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.



    This verse is powerful,



    13When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.




    God has declared Him righteous, He calls him a righteous man and says he shall surely live. Is that not declared righteous? Yet God say in the day he trusts in his own righteousness (himself) and commits iniquity, he will die. So clearly, according to God, if He declares a man righteous, it is not permanent. The man must continue in being righteous or he will die.

    If God declares a man righteous, then you think these verses say that a man's unrighteousness undos God's declaration? Well, lets see how this would work. A man is declared righteous by God, past sins forgiven, the man sins and becomes unrighteous. The man asks forgiveness, doesn't sin that sin again and God declares him righteous again until the man sins another sin, once again the man asks forgiveness, God declares him righteous again and etc etc. So, this verse means either God declares a man righteous over and over again as long as the man maintains that righteousness himself or God declares a man righteous until that man sins, and then he dies lost forever?
    If you ask me that pretty well puts the righteousness in mans hand and not God's and if so, why did Christ die for us?
    Speaking of that...how sinless and for how long does it take for God to declare one as being righteous? How many sins does it take for God to condemn someone forever?
    Romans tells me that it took just one transgression of man to condemn man, but that the gift of God is not like that at all.
    Romans tells me that one transgression resulted in condemnation to ALL MEN, but through the one act of righteousness (the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ) resulted in justification of life to all men. One man sinned and all became sinners, the ONE man Jesus Christ obeyed and many are made righteous.
    I have a Blog. Please visit!

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  10. #205
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    It is just so black and white to me. Christ has either saved someone or He has not. It seems quite impossible to me that God would save just to lose someone afterwards and for whatever reason man gives he is saying that God is not able on His own to completely save someone Himself all by Himself. That He needs help by making a man maintain his own salvation in one way or the other. As if what God starts He needs man to complete.
    Galations 5:4 tells me "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified (declared guiltless) by law; you have fallen from grace (unmerited favor). Are these people who have once known Christ and are now lost because they try to keep the law? No! They were seeking to be justified by the law in the first place and that is the reason they are severed from Him because they had it backwards. They cannot come to Christ as long as they are trying to be justified by the law.
    If man could keep the whole law then would he not be considered sinless? But Scripture tells us that man cannot keep the law. So you cannot be declared guiltless or righteous by keeping the law (no sin) after salvation either. And why is that? That is because if it were possible to keep the law, then man would not need the unmerited favor of God through the work of Christ to become righteous!
    That is why I believe in OSAS. To me to believe otherwise is to doubt God's ability to totally SAVE!
    I have a Blog. Please visit!

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  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by My heart's Desire View Post
    If God declares a man righteous, then you think these verses say that a man's unrighteousness undos God's declaration? Well, lets see how this would work. A man is declared righteous by God, past sins forgiven, the man sins and becomes unrighteous. The man asks forgiveness, doesn't sin that sin again and God declares him righteous again until the man sins another sin, once again the man asks forgiveness, God declares him righteous again and etc etc. So, this verse means either God declares a man righteous over and over again as long as the man maintains that righteousness himself or God declares a man righteous until that man sins, and then he dies lost forever?
    If you ask me that pretty well puts the righteousness in mans hand and not God's and if so, why did Christ die for us?
    Speaking of that...how sinless and for how long does it take for God to declare one as being righteous? How many sins does it take for God to condemn someone forever?
    Romans tells me that it took just one transgression of man to condemn man, but that the gift of God is not like that at all.
    Romans tells me that one transgression resulted in condemnation to ALL MEN, but through the one act of righteousness (the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ) resulted in justification of life to all men. One man sinned and all became sinners, the ONE man Jesus Christ obeyed and many are made righteous.
    Bingo I love this passage in John 10:


    John 10:22-38 22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one." 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods" '? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."
    I will take this one steps further. Christ says that we should do the things he did right? Christ here says. 7 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

    If a person claims to be Christian, to know the path, but he doesn't do the things of God. Christ himself said do not believe him. Therefore Works are going to happen if you are saved, they are a testimony of what Christ has wrought within us.


    I'm going to exit this conversation now. My HDD on my notebook at home died last night and it may be sometime till I can replace the machine. It was fun while it lasted though.


    God Bless

    Tim

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravisJ View Post
    Why are people so hard at understanding... I am not hurt because of any manner of offense or anything like that... I hurt because people they are lost, and i just begin to think on how the churches are today.. and compare them in the beginning churches.. and how much compromise happened... I may be over people's heads or maybe not i just... agree or disagree, it don't matter. In the book of Proverbs.. God said my people perish because of the lack of knowledge... and they have the lack of knowledge because they are not taught the truth, bits and pieces told here and there... You can't complete a puzzles by just bits and pieces... So how can a Christian grow when he is only fed a small amount?

    I'm just gonna stop i'm sorry i just think to much, and I know a lot of people don't understand.. sometimes its those things between you and God.. its hard to explain to others.. but any ways..

    God bless you all, and have a hand of protection over all.
    In Jesus Name
    Travis, I don't think you are alone in grieving for the church. It's natural for those who love Christ to love what Christ loves and be concerned. Don't be embarrassed to think this way. Many others are praying for the church too. But don't lose hope either because the Holy Spirit also makes intercession for those in Christ.

  13. #208
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    My Heart---If God declares a man righteous, then you think these verses say that a man's unrighteousness undos God's declaration? Well, lets see how this would work. A man is declared righteous by God, past sins forgiven, the man sins and becomes unrighteous. The man asks forgiveness, doesn't sin that sin again and God declares him righteous again until the man sins another sin, once again the man asks forgiveness, God declares him righteous again and etc etc. So, this verse means either God declares a man righteous over and over again as long as the man maintains that righteousness himself or God declares a man righteous until that man sins, and then he dies lost forever?
    If you ask me that pretty well puts the righteousness in mans hand and not God's and if so, why did Christ die for us?
    Speaking of that...how sinless and for how long does it take for God to declare one as being righteous? How many sins does it take for God to condemn someone forever?
    Romans tells me that it took just one transgression of man to condemn man, but that the gift of God is not like that at all.
    Romans tells me that one transgression resulted in condemnation to ALL MEN, but through the one act of righteousness (the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ) resulted in justification of life to all men. One man sinned and all became sinners, the ONE man Jesus Christ obeyed and many are made righteous.
    You have to understand that being declared justified, means that God has counted an act as ,righteous. The Bible says there is none righteous, we are never righteous, we only get declared or counted righteous. The Scripture clearly says that a man can turn from his righteousness. Now, I have nowhere mentioned sins, so I don't know where you got the idea that I inferred that a person was declared righteous and then sinned and was declared unrighteous. It says when a man "turns" from his righteousness, when he stops living a righteous life, not when he commits a sin. Abraham was counted righteous, he sinned, God did 't say today you are righteous, but yesterday you were not, but the day before. No, Abraham sinned, but he walked with God and lived a righteous life, that is why he was declared righteous.

    My Heart---If you ask me that pretty well puts the righteousness in mans hand and not God's and if so, why did Christ die for us?
    That's what He said, if a righteous man turns from "his" righteousness, "his" righteousness will not save him in the day that he commits iniquity. Christ died for us because none of us are righteous.

    My Heart---Speaking of that...how sinless and for how long does it take for God to declare one as being righteous? How many sins does it take for God to condemn someone forever?
    This argument is fallacious, as I said it is not about how many sins, it is a matter of turning.

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by My heart's Desire View Post
    It is just so black and white to me. Christ has either saved someone or He has not. It seems quite impossible to me that God would save just to lose someone afterwards and for whatever reason man gives he is saying that God is not able on His own to completely save someone Himself all by Himself. That He needs help by making a man maintain his own salvation in one way or the other. As if what God starts He needs man to complete.
    Galations 5:4 tells me "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified (declared guiltless) by law; you have fallen from grace (unmerited favor). Are these people who have once known Christ and are now lost because they try to keep the law? No! They were seeking to be justified by the law in the first place and that is the reason they are severed from Him because they had it backwards. They cannot come to Christ as long as they are trying to be justified by the law.
    If man could keep the whole law then would he not be considered sinless? But Scripture tells us that man cannot keep the law. So you cannot be declared guiltless or righteous by keeping the law (no sin) after salvation either. And why is that? That is because if it were possible to keep the law, then man would not need the unmerited favor of God through the work of Christ to become righteous!
    That is why I believe in OSAS. To me to believe otherwise is to doubt God's ability to totally SAVE!

    My Heart---It is just so black and white to me. Christ has either saved someone or He has not. It seems quite impossible to me that God would save just to lose someone afterwards and for whatever reason man gives he is saying that God is not able on His own to completely save someone Himself all by Himself. That He needs help by making a man maintain his own salvation in one way or the other. As if what God starts He needs man to complete.
    No one is actually saved until the judgment, When we say we are saved, we mean we have been placed in a relationship with Christ. Nothing in my statement implies that God is not able, the question is, is man willing? God needs no help to save anyone, however He has told us what criteria He is going to use when He saves us.

    My Heart---Galatians 5:4 tells me "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified (declared guiltless) by law; you have fallen from grace (unmerited favor). Are these people who have once known Christ and are now lost because they try to keep the law? No! They were seeking to be justified by the law in the first place and that is the reason they are severed from Him because they had it backwards. They cannot come to Christ as long as they are trying to be justified by the law.
    You have contradicted yourself here. How can they be severed if they were never attached to Christ? These were believers, and Paul is telling them that if the y seek to be justified by the law, Christ will not profit them. But what does this have to do with good works? I never said a person had to keep the law, I said a person had to do good works.

    My Heart---If man could keep the whole law then would he not be considered sinless? But Scripture tells us that man cannot keep the law. So you cannot be declared guiltless or righteous by keeping the law (no sin) after salvation either. And why is that? That is because if it were possible to keep the law, then man would not need the unmerited favor of God through the work of Christ to become righteous!
    Even if man could keep the law perfectly, he still would need God's grace to be saved, because mankind was under the power of darkness and needed to be ransomed from the power of darkness.

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post



    No one is actually saved until the judgment,
    Right. My Sin was judged at the Cross and when I believed I was saved so therefore I was saved at the judgment and am no longer under condemnation. Therefore, only those who are lost are found at the judgment seat of Christ. Christians are rewarded or have lack of rewards for their good works at the Bema Seat, and doesn't involve their salvation at all.
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