"Speaking In Tongues" shall cease

[SuperSonicEvnglst]

1St) why would I care what Macarthur thinks?

2Nd)

1 cor 13

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect ( Mature or complete ) comes, the partial will be done away.( vs 8 )
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child(Tongues), think like a child( gift of prophesy) , reason like a child( gift of knowledge); when I became a man( Mature or complete), I did away with childish things ( vs 8 ).

The perfect or complete is in reference to the knowledge that is no longer in part and prophecy that is no longer in part.
This is what has occurred in our current bible.

The Completed scriptures are here, therefore these Gifts of Knowledge and prophecy are no longer with us.

Paul said right after in the next chapter that he was thankful he spoke in tongues more than all of them. So Paul contradicted himself saying when he became a man, he put away tongues, yet in the next chapter he is thankful he spoke in tongues more than them? And he is also saying he's thankful he "speaks as a child"? Read the context in full, he is talking about love being the motivation for the gifts. Christians who do not have love are childish and immature babes in Christ, not Christians who speak in tongues, prophecy and use the gift of knowledge.

[SuperSonicEvnglst]

[QUOTE=Colight;2834439]1St) why would I care what Macarthur thinks?

true

[Slug1]

Paul said right after in the next chapter that he was thankful he spoke in tongues more than all of them. So Paul contradicted himself saying when he became a man, he put away tongues, yet in the next chapter he is thankful he spoke in tongues more than them? And he is also saying he's thankful he "speaks as a child"? Read the context in full, he is talking about love being the motivation for the gifts. Christians who do not have love are childish and immature babes in Christ, not Christians who speak in tongues, prophecy and use the gift of knowledge.

All this has been illuminated for him in previous posts and replies... it's now a matter of accepting the truth of scripture so LISTENING TO the scriptures can enable the Holy Spirit to make change.

I agree and pointed out, Paul is NOT double-minded, nor beaten around like a wave on an ocean. He will not say in one breath, tongues is childish and in the next breath, THANK GOD for the fact that he presently speaks in tongues MORE then who he is writing and discipling concerning the proper order and usage of the gift of tongues.

I explained that CONTEXT is what shows the truth of the MEANING of the scriptures... yet Colight presently continues to pull out a scripture here, and a scripture there and arrange them into what he wants to believe.

I did the same when I was in bondage to the cassationist doctrine. I even arranged them the same way that he presently does when I wasn't listening either. I said all the same words and had the same attitude as him. Its what bondage to that doctrine causes and turns Christians into.

Only God and the truth of the Bible will freedom from that doctrine be available.

Took a lot of prayer by others for the process to freedom to begin... so that's why I posted that it's reached that point because proper context has been laid out many times all throughout this thread.

Now it's about listening and accepting God's truth.

[SuperSonicEvnglst]

I see both sides of the argument...honestly, at the end of the day. do the ones who believe in the gift of tongues believe those who do not speak in tongues are of the devil, and those who do not speak in tongues believe that those who do are full of the devil? Is it possible to have fellowship with one another? Some of the ministers i love to listen to the most do not, to my knowledge, speak in tongues and perhaps believe in it. If I have learned anything from this thread, it's that there needs to be a walls of division broke down for believers to fellowship with one another regarding this topic. Forgive me If I have seemed ungodly or perhaps reaching for discussions that cause division among the brethren. C.S. Lewis said something to the effect that division among the brethren hinders those on the outside looking in from coming into the fold.

[Watchman]

Well you have stated your view, which I completely reject.
The Doctrine needed for the Church was pretty much complete by the time of writings of 2 Timothy and James.
It was not complete at the time 1 Corinthians was written.
Which was under a span of 20 or so years, and with in the life time of Paul... That was not a couple of hundred.

It was circa 300 when the 'canon' was assembled and 'complete.' You have given no credible reasons why you believe the perfect is the Bible...you just keep on stating that, and building upon that premise sans proof. Oh well...

[Slug1]

do the ones who believe in the gift of tongues believe those who do not speak in tongues are of the devil,

How could this thought even enter the mind of a Christian, let alone be expressed as a possibility to even be a thought in any Christian's thought process??

Is it possible to have fellowship with one another?

I don't see there would be any trouble. I'm in a Pentecostal church. For the life of me, when God moved me to this church I questioned Him as to... WHY? Of the 150 members (on the books presently, when I was told to move to this church, there we only about 20 on the books), hmmmm, presently about ten are gifted with the gift of tongues and only 2 are gifted with the gift of interpretation of tongues. Or that I know have been used by God in the manifestation of interpretation.

So, would a person think the rest can't be fellowshipped with? In all my years of relationship with Christ, fellowshipping with Christians who do not believe in any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit... fellowshipping has not been hindered in anyway. Not before when I didn't believe in the gifts and today, even though I do believe in ALL the gifts of the Holy Spirit fully in operation through the Body of Christ today.

Now when I was bound in Cessationism, I could not and WOULD not have ANYTHING to do with Christians who DID believed in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Back then, ONLY with those who where likewise in bondage to Cessationism. If I met a Christian who wasn't sure and I could not convince them that the gifts ended... then I didn't want to have anything to do with them either.

This fruit alone and Colight even expressed it... JUST how I felt back then when I was bound in that doctrine! I would NOT go to any church where there was ANY possibility that the Holy Spirit MIGHT manifest supernaturally. As Colight said, any who joked to me that they'd tie me to a pew or lock the doors... I would have the same thoughts that he expressed in a post awhile back.

That fruit of what the Cessationist doctrine causes is clearly not Godly based on my personal thoughts/experiences and Colights as well based on his comments in this thread.

Some of the ministers i love to listen to the most do not, to my knowledge, speak in tongues and perhaps believe in it.

Same here and I could not imagine how speaking in tongues or not would be a factor in a choice to listen to a person who is speaking/writing etc.

If I have learned anything from this thread, it's that there needs to be a walls of division broke down for believers to fellowship with one another regarding this topic.

Hooah! Check my last line of my signature... this is a man-made problem and man has to set aside his pride if God is to be allowed to fix it. Or, we wait till Jesus returns and then everything will be perfect as He does away from denominations that suit us.

Forgive me If I have seemed ungodly or perhaps reaching for discussions that cause division among the brethren. C.S. Lewis said something to the effect that division among the brethren hinders those on the outside looking in from coming into the fold.

Which is why members of this messageboard continue to post and reply with scripture in contextual truth and point out when something is not in contextual truth.

[SuperSonicEvnglst]

How could this thought even enter the mind of a Christian, let alone be expressed as a possibility to even be a thought in any Christian's thought process??

Sorry, i know that sounds absurd but you would just have to go to some of the churches i'v been to lol

[Colight]

Paul said right after in the next chapter that he was thankful he spoke in tongues more than all of them. So Paul contradicted himself saying when he became a man, he put away tongues, yet in the next chapter he is thankful he spoke in tongues more than them? And he is also saying he's thankful he "speaks as a child"? Read the context in full, he is talking about love being the motivation for the gifts. Christians who do not have love are childish and immature babes in Christ, not Christians who speak in tongues, prophecy and use the gift of knowledge.

1 Cor 3
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?


The whole Church of Corinth is a carnal, immature Church. Yet they spoke in tongues. Had the gifts of Prophecy and Knowledge.
Why?
Because in that day they was legit gifts.
They are not gifts given to day.

[Colight]

It was circa 300 when the 'canon' was assembled and 'complete.' You have given no credible reasons why you believe the perfect is the Bible...you just keep on stating that, and building upon that premise sans proof. Oh well...

Ok..
I will take Gods word over your "timeline"
In James it stated they had a very clear view of the word, which is the law of liberty.

So was the author of one of the books of the bible lying or what?

[Colight]

If Christians came to your church and gave a prophetic word of edification and your attitude was the same... to USE what God did through them (sign/wonder) AGAINST them... you'd be JUST AS wicked as they were all back then.

Except for one fact,

We are Command to live by faith, not seek signs or wonders.
There are no signs we are to look for we are to live each day onto God until the rapture or death.
They had the messiah that was fore told.
The cannon is closed, there is no prophetic message they could say that would be worth hearing.
Therefore for the result of such a event would be a fables.

We are to immerse in sound doctrine.. not some visiting side show..
Frankly, my pastor would never give them the floor, it is his flock to lead.

2 tim 4
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

[Slug1]

Ok..
I will take Gods word over your "timeline"
In James it stated they had a very clear view of the word, which is the law of liberty.

So was the author of one of the books of the bible lying or what?

The point you're ignoring is when James or Paul, Peter etc "wrote or spoke", it was a bunch of letters and messages. The "Bible" was canonized MANY years AFTER their deaths. Even if they had lived to ripe ages of 100 years old, the "BIBLE" as it is today wasn't "the Bible" until after all the stuff written was chosen as worthy to become the Bible.

Much has been LEFT out, changed, added by man and translated and re-translated many times over and this is what SOME call... "the perfect".

Even if the "first and original" Bible was "complete"... it was STILL many years after any of the Apostles were physically dust in the ground and only bones left behind.

Now... Paul speaks in a way that he has a RELATIONSHIP with the "perfect" and WHEN he is face to face, he will know AS HE IS KNOWN.

The Perfect is Jesus.

You can ignore the timing of the Bible but a google search and about 30 seconds of research will lead you to many sites that can help you see that the Bible was completed MANY years after all the Apostles had died off.

Question since I missed it I guess, which James scripture are you referring to? And in what context are you understanding it?

[Slug1]

Except for one fact, We are Command to live by faith, not seek signs or wonders.

AMEN!

Signs and wonders FOLLOW the faithful. They don't have to go look FOR them.

There are no signs we are to look for we are to live each day onto God until the rapture or death.

They had the messiah that was fore told.

AMEN

The cannon is closed, there is no prophetic message they could say that would be worth hearing.

Prophetic words are for EDIFICATION according to the instructions that Paul has given to the Body of Christ. Prophetic words are not additions to scripture. Would you like an example of what I mean?

Therefore for the result of such a event would be a fables.

Only for those who don't accept the edification that is provided by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

We are to immerse in sound doctrine.. not some visiting side show..

When the Holy Spirit manifests in power, it is supernatural... only those who don't accept the movement of the Holy Spirit upon or through the Body of Christ are wicked enough to call the source of supernatural tongues a "side show".

Frankly, my pastor would never give them the floor, it is his flock to lead.

Thus the reason the Holy Spirit is NOT allowed to move supernaturally in MANY churches today. MAN thinks they are in charge and anything not DONE man's way will be considered "out of order".

2 tim 4 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

satan used scripture against Jesus falsely... also. It still don't work when not applied properly or in context.

[warfrog]

Am i wrong to understand that simply Paul was speaking of when we change?
When mortality puts on immortality and corruption becomes incorruptible.
Thats when all the gifts will cease but love will always continue even when all the gifts cease?

[SuperSonicEvnglst]

1 Cor 3
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?


The whole Church of Corinth is a carnal, immature Church. Yet they spoke in tongues. Had the gifts of Prophecy and Knowledge.
Why?
Because in that day they was legit gifts.
They are not gifts given to day.

They were carnal in the aspect of the "fruit" of the Spirit, not the gifts. One can excercise gifts, yet not have the fruit of the Spirit. Look at Matthew 7 at the ones who stand before Christ saying they had done mighty miracles, yet they did not "know" Him. Samson was a manhor, yet he operated under the power of the Spirit of God. We do not judge gifts, but fruits. It's not man's charasmatics, but character that we judge.

There are still carnal churches today. Can you give me Scripture saying that when 1 Cor. 13 refers to "perfect" it is speaking of the NT books being put together by the catholic church, and why you believe that the fact that James does not mention the gift of tongues that it is no longer available to us, even though he mentions the gift of healing(call for the elders of the Church and they will anoint you with oil...)

[SuperSonicEvnglst]

Am i wrong to understand that simply Paul was speaking of when we change?
When mortality puts on immortality and corruption becomes incorruptible.
Thats when all the gifts will cease but love will always continue even when all the gifts cease?

If you read the context as a whole, that's exactly what I'm getting. Even John Macarthur, who does not believe the gifts are in operation today as in the book of Acts, does not believe that these verses are referring to the removal of gifts when the NT books would be put together. Paul doesn't say that anywhere in this chapter.