"Speaking In Tongues" shall cease

[Watchman]

Ok..
I will take Gods word over your "timeline"
In James it stated they had a very clear view of the word, which is the law of liberty.

So was the author of one of the books of the bible lying or what?

I have no reason to answer this until you show evidence of your opinion! The Bible is the law of liberty, eh? Let's have some BCV for proof, please. BTW, why did you ignore the overwhelming majority of passages using teleios that differ from your pov? You simply ignored the vast majority of passages that do NOT support you. Why?

[warfrog]

If you read the context as a whole, that's exactly what I'm getting. Even John Macarthur, who does not believe the gifts are in operation today as in the book of Acts, does not believe that these verses are referring to the removal of gifts when the NT books would be put together. Paul doesn't say that anywhere in this chapter.

Simply understanding the Word is a gift, that in itself end's this discussion. If gifts were ceased now, or since whenever back in the day, were all clueless and blind, none of you or I know what im talking about and were all liars and hypocrites wandering in darkness.

So pick one, have the gifts ceased, are they un-needed or was Paul speaking about when Jesus collect His at His return when we all change and are resurrected as He was resurrected.

Id also like to point out that the Holy Spirit is directly called the "Helper" and that no man is Christ unless he has the Holy Spirit.

So what is the point of a Helper if we need no help? Why would it be required to have the Helper if we are His if help is useless or ceased?

[Watchman]

Warfrog,

You've struck a chord! This thread isn't really about tongues. It is actually about whether the Holy Spirit still manifests Himself through the saints for our edification and profit...or whether we simply read and do the scriptures. This thread is about the power of God...which some seem to be denying!

blessings,

Watchman

[Slug1]

I have no reason to answer this until you show evidence of your opinion! The Bible is the law of liberty, eh? Let's have some BCV for proof, please. BTW, why did you ignore the overwhelming majority of passages using teleios that differ from your pov? You simply ignored the vast majority of passages that do NOT support you. Why?

When I was in bondage to the Cessationist doctrine, all the scriptures I was forced to ignore are those all throughout this thread.

That is what bondage does... I would read those scriptures and my eyes were turned away from their truth in the context of the Bible's context. All I was ABLE to view was the few that are allowed to be included in the doctrine. Unfortunately, since I was IN BONDAGE, I was completely unable to open my eyes to the truth of the Bible, as it is for any in bondage to that doctrine.

I always IGNORED the scriptures when they were explained to me in proper context.

One thing I didn't do... I didn't ignore that the Bible wasn't "a Bible" until many years later after all the Gospels, Epistles and OT writings had passed through the various Counsels that selected what was OK to be in today's Bible.

I never followed the line that Colight is following in determining the closing of the Bible/Cannon.

I actually don't understand his line of reason to even say that the cannon was closed when he thinks/ how he thinks it was.

[Zack702]

It is because believers who have full faith can receive miracles.

And they can see miracles and they can hear miracles and they can feel miracles.

But we know that they are saved allready by faith in Jesus.

Therefor these things are not beneficial to help those who have not yet any faith in Jesus.

But love is what is beneficial towards them that they might recieve salvation and gain faith that way.

Some people readily believe in Jesus as though they were choosen.

Others go many years rejecting and in one day of there old age are converted because they accept love which is ever present no matter how suppressed it may seam.

[Watchman]

I never followed the line that Colight is following in determining the closing of the Bible/Cannon.

I actually don't understand his line of reason to even say that the cannon was closed when he thinks/ how he thinks it was.

Same here. Since he declined to address this in the thread dedicated to that topic, perhaps he'd lay it out here, line by line, for us to peruse?

[Colight]

Question since I missed it I guess, which James scripture are you referring to? And in what context are you understanding it?

Yet somehow James had enough of the PERFECT law of liberty to seems it quite Clear...

James 1
22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror
24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like.
25 But whoever looks intently into the PERFECT LAW that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

[Colight]

One can excercise gifts, yet not have the fruit of the Spirit. Look at Matthew 7 at the ones who stand before Christ saying they had done mighty miracles, yet they did not "know" Him.

Those in Matthew 7 are never was believers..
The Spirit is never given the body of a unbeliever as a temple.

There are still carnal churches today. Can you give me Scripture saying that when 1 Cor. 13 refers to "perfect" it is speaking of the NT books being put together by the catholic church, and why you believe that the fact that James does not mention the gift of tongues that it is no longer available to us, even though he mentions the gift of healing(call for the elders of the Church and they will anoint you with oil...)

I never stated any thing about the catholic church, James was written before 70ad. They had the Word, called the law of liberty
In pauls later letter to Timothy.. He is quite solid on scripture being used to Perfectly equip us, In 1 Cor the word was not complete enough to equip us, so they used the Gifts of Prophecy and Knowledge to tide them over until it was..

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

[Watchman]

Colight,

Please state scriptural basis for the idea that the perfect = the Bible. I realize you're dodging me, so please state it for everyone else. Simply referencing James' letter doesn't actually make a connection at all.

Thank you.

Watchman

[Colight]

why did you ignore the overwhelming majority of passages using teleios that differ from your pov? You simply ignored the vast majority of passages that do NOT support you. Why?

They are not in the context of the discussion, so why bother with them?
Now if you wish to post more solid doctrine ( the lessons behind the verses, I may engage)
I really dont partake in jumping to and fro on this verse and that verse like a drunk staggering down the street.

Here is a start..

Once more, Tongues ceased because they had a meaning..
That meaning Is expressively conveyed is that the serve as a SIGN to the unbelievers, and directly to the unbelievers of Israel.
Sign was stated that their end as a client nation to God was coming and the Gentiles will now be the bearers of the word.
Doctrinally that is the use for Valid Tongues.
When that judgement occurred, there was No longer a need for that sign, so it was done away.

See that is a very simple and easy to understand explanation as to why I dont see tongues as valid today.
And it is based off scriptures..

Now It is your turn to give a easy to understand reason why this is invalid.
OR
You can give a easy to understand reason why tongues are valid.

Try doing so with out posting verses, yet have verses on stand by if certain points should be questioned.

[Colight]

Colight,

Please state scriptural basis for the idea that the perfect = the Bible. I realize you're dodging me, so please state it for everyone else. Simply referencing James' letter doesn't actually make a connection at all.

Thank you.

Watchman

The Bible is what we call it today, They called the same scriptures, the Law of Liberty.

James 1
25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.


Now do you believe there is some other law or book we should look into to Gage our self and our spiritual growth?
Is there any thing else that is complete with what we need to Know, that is complete in Prophecy?

[Colight]

AMEN!
Prophetic words are for EDIFICATION according to the instructions that Paul has given to the Body of Christ. Prophetic words are not additions to scripture. Would you like an example of what I mean?
Only for those who don't accept the edification that is provided by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

Is it needed in a state of faith?
Nope.
Therefore counterfeit.

When the Holy Spirit manifests in power, it is supernatural... only those who don't accept the movement of the Holy Spirit upon or through the Body of Christ are wicked enough to call the source of supernatural tongues a "side show".

So I have to accept that side show or be called wicked...
Paul called it Madness... when it was done out of order in his day, When the gift was valid..Was Paul wicked?

1 Corinthians 14:23
If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Am I good if I join into this chatter session?
I am good if I embrace it, even when every fiber of my being screams it is false?
Now this is where you error..
I am totally free to reject it, when you call me wicked for doing so, you are making a judgement call that is not yours to make.

This is the EXACT same Mind set that caused the INQUISITION,,,, and to me shows the real mindset behind this movement.


When Saved7 Stated she knew some woman who made false tongues, was that a side show or the real thing when it was false?
Or was it a show till she got it right? How was it known she got it right?
Should a christian respect and be accepting the of false Doctrines.. Like the worship of Mary, or indulgences, or False tongues?
If I reject the worship of Mary, even if it is done in the spirit.. Is that wicked too?

Thus the reason the Holy Spirit is NOT allowed to move supernaturally in MANY churches today. MAN thinks they are in charge and anything not DONE man's way will be considered "out of order".

Thank God for that.
This is the reason why he made Pastors able lead the FLOCKs independently of each other.
If one goes bad, then it does not spread to the rest ( one reason why denominations not really that valid )

[Watchman]

They are not in the context of the discussion, so why bother with them?
Now if you wish to post more solid doctrine ( the lessons behind the verses, I may engage)
I really dont partake in jumping to and fro on this verse and that verse like a drunk staggering down the street.

Here is a start..

Once more, Tongues ceased because they had a meaning..
That meaning Is expressively conveyed is that the serve as a SIGN to the unbelievers, and directly to the unbelievers of Israel.
Sign was stated that their end as a client nation to God was coming and the Gentiles will now be the bearers of the word.
Doctrinally that is the use for Valid Tongues.
When that judgement occurred, there was No longer a need for that sign, so it was done away.

See that is a very simple and easy to understand explanation as to why I dont see tongues as valid today.
And it is based off scriptures..

Now It is your turn to give a easy to understand reason why this is invalid.
OR
You can give a easy to understand reason why tongues are valid.

Try doing so with out posting verses, yet have verses on stand by if certain points should be questioned.

Thak you, Colight.

Tongues did, and do, in fact, have a meaning. They are for the profit and edification of the church, a sign for unbelievers, and they are for some prayers. All these are found in the passages we've been looking at in 1 Corinthians 13. Yes, the OT stated they were for the Jews, as Paul said, but he also said they are a sign for unbelievers. He was writing to Gentile churches, so the point about Jews is moot. A reason I argue for the continuation of tongues is that they are part of a larger picture. Paul compared the different manifestations to the different functions of different parts of the human body. The purpose of this comparison is to show that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit are as vital to the proper functioning of the body of Christ as are the different parts of the human body vital to its proper functioning.

As for the preterist presumption that AD 70 has significance re: this topic, that will be left unaddressed simply because that is your opinion. Should you wish to discuss preterism, I'm sure some here will be glad to oblige.

Watchman

[Watchman]

The Bible is what we call it today, They called the same scriptures, the Law of Liberty.

James 1
25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

This is the thing difficult thing about communicating with you, Colight. You're making authoritative statements based upon your opinion. Nowhere does scripture refer to itself as the law of liberty. Nowhere is there a command that all the scriptures be compiled, neither is there a comprehensive list of them. If James is talking about the "completed canon" of the Bible, then what about the writings that occurred after ~48 a.d.? You've taken a phrase of James' words, and have arbitrarily stated that "they called the same scriptures the law of Liberty." That is an unsubstantiated opinion. Have you other evidence that is more compelling?

Now do you believe there is some other law or book we should look into to Gage our self and our spiritual growth?
Is there any thing else that is complete with what we need to Know, that is complete in Prophecy?

Absolutely, yes! If we have all we need in scripture, then why were men given to equip the saints for the work of ministry UNTIL the body grows into Christ's full stature? If all we need is found in scripture, then why are we made one Spirit with the Lord and why are we told to follow His inner guidance? The idea of the sufficiency of scripture carries with it, in most circles, the idea that we have the ability to read and do perfectly. It is a fleshly concept. The scriptures do, indeed, tell us how to be equipped, but they do not directly equip us. God does that via His Spirit.

We are told in the OT, that the Lord orders the steps of a righteous man. Paul said that we are created unto good works, prepared in advance, in which for those of us in Christ to walk. So we have order(timing, sequence) and we have premade works. These will be different for each saint, just as the functions of the body are different and must work at the appropriate times, in the appropriate sequences, at the appropriate tasks. Scripture does not contain this list and its order for us, and even if it did, we would fail as miserably as did the Israelites in keeping the law of Moses. The leading, guidance, teaching, enlightening of the Holy Spirit cannot be set aside in favor of the Bible.

W

[SuperSonicEvnglst]

The scripture reference in 1 cor. 14 where Paul mentions the Scripture in Isaiah, reading it in context, seems to be an example of God ushering in the new covenant with the gift of tongues, yet the Jews would still not believe. It is a sign to the unbeliever, yet no where does it even mention the temple being destroyed ending the gift on tongues. That would have meant the gentiles would have started speaking Jewish in the Old Testament...

As for the verse in James mentioning the perfect law of liberty being what Paul was referring to, then we must disregard every Writing ever recorded since then since the "Scripture cannon" was closed. What's sad is everyone who didn't have access to the letters of the NT and everyone today who does not have access to the Bible...how does this apply to them?

Bottom line, gift of tongues has more than one purpose, and the Scripture doesn't even specifically refer to the destruction of the temple after Christ's death ending the gift of tongues.

One more thing...how is someone accepting a miracle from God not doing something in faith? Heck, whether God does a miracle or not, I still trust Him. This sounds like a copout. Miracles are not necessarily to help one's faith, but a means for God to move. A miracle is simply an act of God. I have to do what the Bible says, and if Jude telle me to edify myself by praying in the Holy Spirit, I'm going to do that. I am sorry the side shows of cults and ignorant churches has gave you a bad taste for the Spiritual gifts of today. Your assumptions of the Scriptures is one thing, but remember, the pharisees also said that Christ's manifestations were of the devil and counterfeit. They were wrong