"Speaking In Tongues" shall cease

[Colight]

Charlie hired a translator the first time he went. After he spoke for awhile, the people started raising their hands, smiling, and speaking in spanish. He didn't understand them and the translator had said nothing. He asked the translator if he was going to translate the first part of the message and the translator told him there was no need because they've understood you and are praising God for what has been said. These people knew no english, and Charlie knew no spanish.

W

Not to be the wet blanket on such a warm story...
However reality is different.
Being in Spanish countries many times. Peru, Columbia, Mexico, Costa Rica..etc..
They know a lot of English.
I have been very remote, even there they know English, because many of them have worked in the USA.

[RandyHJ]

Exactly but this passage even tells more it says shall cease not that you need to put more attention on love and the gifts will still be there no it says cease which means they will stop. The problem is that people that are today hung up on all the emotions of these gifts do not belive Gods word when he says they shall stop. These gifts were gifts given to the early church. All prophecy has been written in Gods book theHoly Bible..people today that say they speak in tongues and give new prophecy are not of God but are being tricked by Satan. Paul new this would happen that is why the passage is there telling us about these very gifts. Everything we need to know is complete and written in Gods word .
God Bless
Randy

They were not given to the "early" church (that is our term, not God's). They were given to THE Church because they are manifestations of the Holy Spirit who was given to THE Church and who is still with us. These are not "gifts" seperate from the Holy Spirit Himself, they are manifestations of His presence and His power, and He is still with us and still manifests Himself among us. The New Testament was not given to us to "replace" the Holy Spirit. The New Testament was given to us so that we would have a standard by which we can test and judge the spirits to see whether they are from God. The Scripture itself does not say, "Those who read the Bible are the sons of God", rather it says, "Those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God". God's intention is for each one of us to have an interaction with the Holy Spirit in daily lives. God isn't dealing with us from a distance through a book, He is dealing with us in Person, that is, in the Person of the Holy Spirit. We need to stop being afraid of the Holy Spirit and having more faith in the demonic than we do in the Divine.

[Colight]

Hm, interesting I don't see where it states that tongues was a sign limited to the unbelieving Jews. All I see there is it is a sign to the unbelieving. I see now where you get your doctrine, you imagine words that are not there.

When Paul states it is written in the LAW..

Who did God give the law to ?

1 Cor 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people(of Israel);.....
Paul was referencing...
Isaiah 28:11 - For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Care to take back that snide remark now?

[Colight]

Slug1
Can you define s/w/m.. somewhere that came in and I missed the reference.

Any manifestation of the Holy Spirit is glory to God. Man is who makes a s/w/m either confusing (by exercising them wrong as the Corinthians did), or NOT glorifying to God by not accepting them.

For example... if God manifested any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in your church, are you gonna accept God's move in POWER or are you gonna continue as you have throughout this thread and say... NOT NEEDED? If you would continue as you have throughout this thread, then NO, the s/w/m is not glorifying to God IN YOUR HEART.

So then... why would He contemplate using you as a servant to move in the power of the Holy Spirit and do a s/w/m?? As I said, it won't be FOR you but for someone else. First God needs a servant in obedience for Him to move in power, through. Any who believe can be of use... cept those who say, "NO, my faith don't need a s/w/m".

There are gifts that are active for the Church of today, Pastor teacher, Gift of helps, Administrator gifts,.

The position I have is That Tongues have ceased as of 70 ad, The gifts of Prophecy and knowledge ended as of 97 ad when the Bible was finished.

At least I only "seem" to be misled in your eyes. Some say I AM misled because I tell them the truth of the scriptures in the proper context and they REFUSE to move away and separate themselves from their personal doctrines.

As a matter of fact, 6 years ago I said the EXACT same thing to those talking with me the way I'm talking with you. Cept what I said was exactly what you are saying and what I was listening to back then, is what I'm saying to you know.

God had to change me and it took... Him moving in power after I reached a point of surrender where I'd accept a s/w/m done in my presence and into my life. The only part of "me" in all this was me surrendering and seeking God. He did the rest and when the change of heart happened... my life has never been the same since.

I encourage you to do a study of the Matthew 16 scriptures... if you pursue them seeking God's truth, you will see that to seek a s/w/m is NOT wicked at all. What the Pharisee's and those with them were seeking (a s/w/m to PIN evidence AGAINST Jesus), this was what Jesus called... WICKED!

If you look in any study Bible concerning these very scriptures... it will be laid right out for you to either accept (and you change your stance) or continue to ignore (remain in your stance) and stick with your incorrect usage of those scriptures and use them AGAINST God when He's manifesting s/w/m through servants today.

If you recall Satan knows scripture very well, he even used it to tempt Christ.

Matt 4
5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Satan is very quick to distort, with lies and false teaching .

Behind scripture is Doctrine or lessons that we are to live by.
The bible is VERY strong on how we should be on doctrine.

It should be sound, uncorrupted, and serious...

Titus 2:7
In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

We are not to be carried back and forth, like a drunk staggering or a ship in a storm.

Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

You position is not really meshing with sound doctrine.
There is a lot of emotional pleading as to why I need to accept it.
A lot of real life stories,

But there is not any doctrinal foundation for it.
This is why I am not accepting it.

[Slug1]

Slug1
Can you define s/w/m.. somewhere that came in and I missed the reference.

Signs/Wonders/Miracles

There are gifts that are active for the Church of today, Pastor teacher, Gift of helps, Administrator gifts,.

I agree with this as well.

The position I have is That Tongues have ceased as of 70 ad, The gifts of Prophecy and knowledge ended as of 97 ad when the Bible was finished.

I cannot agree with this. Paul states:

1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

This is when these specific s/w will end... ONCE the "perfect" has returned and we are face to face with the perfect. Jesus has not returned yet, we are not face to face with Him yet. The perfect cannot be the Bible because "who" we will be face to face with as Paul describes AS the "perfect"... KNOWS us (//...as I also am known.).

[Slug1]

They were not given to the "early" church (that is our term, not God's). They were given to THE Church because they are manifestations of the Holy Spirit who was given to THE Church and who is still with us. These are not "gifts" seperate from the Holy Spirit Himself, they are manifestations of His presence and His power, and He is still with us and still manifests Himself among us. The New Testament was not given to us to "replace" the Holy Spirit. The New Testament was given to us so that we would have a standard by which we can test and judge the spirits to see whether they are from God. The Scripture itself does not say, "Those who read the Bible are the sons of God", rather it says, "Those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God". God's intention is for each one of us to have an interaction with the Holy Spirit in daily lives. God isn't dealing with us from a distance through a book, He is dealing with us in Person, that is, in the Person of the Holy Spirit. We need to stop being afraid of the Holy Spirit and having more faith in the demonic than we do in the Divine.

Amen... repping you!

I like the way you put it in your post as in knowing "about" God (those who read the Bible) compared to those who KNOW God (those led by the Holy Spirit). Hooah!!!

I know a person who was a cessationist until someone simply made this statement: "The power of the Holy Spirit is NOT only between the covers of the Bible." This simple statement convicted the man and since then, this man has operated in the power of the Holy Spirit in a healing ministry. Not possible until his heart (beliefs in the truth of scriptures) was changed and the Holy Spirit used that simple statement to literally tear down the cessationist belief (doctrine) that he was bound up in.

satan has been imitating God since waaaayyyy back. Take Moses when he tossed down the staff and it became a snake, the sorcerers of the Pharaoh did the same. We see what happened though... God's snake (sign/wonder) ate all the counterfeit snakes (false signs/wonders).

The problem today is many Christians will only "see" the counterfeit (false) signs/wonders even when the REAL signs/wonders are happening also. Such Christians can't even discern the real from the counterfeit... so ALL are counterfeit to them.

I agree... Paul began to disciple the Corinthians in that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are FOR the Body of Christ. Only MAN has added the "early church" belief to this... not God. This is how man had twisted God's truth to fit their desire to understand... that s/w/m are only for the "early" church. God was clear when He gave Paul the mission to disciple the Corinthians... the gifts are for the ENTIRE Body of Christ, BOTH Jew and Gentile who make up the entire Body of Christ.

Another twist of the scriptures... many say the unbelievers in 1 Cor 14:22-25 are ONLY Jews. Whelp, we have to take into account that Corinth is in the region of Greece and this "church" is made up of both Jew and Gentiles. So who are the "unbelievers"?? BOTH Jews and Gentiles are in the church at Corinth manifesting the Gift of Tongues but were exercising this gift in an UNdisciplined manner (amongst a TON more mistakes they were making as well).

But specifically concerning this topic of the Gift of Tongues (or any of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit) Paul established that the gifts are for the ENTIRE Body of Christ. The Bible establishes (in context) that the ENTIRE Body of Christ are both Jews and Gentiles. This was completely IN EFFECT at Corinth.

So to twist those scriptures into meaning that signs/wonders/miracles are ONLY for Jews... is really a MAJOR twisting of the scriptures to fit what MAN chooses to believe as truth OVER the true meaning, that God intends.

[Colight]

ONCE the "perfect" has returned and we are face to face with the perfect. Jesus has not returned yet, we are not face to face with Him yet. The perfect cannot be the Bible because "who" we will be face to face with as Paul describes AS the "perfect"... KNOWS us

The Perfect is gender neutral, Christ is gender male.
Therefore the perfect reefers to a gender neutral object.
Paul is using the mirror object to describe how good the images is ( remember in those days they did not have the fine mirrors we have today) They was blurry, when the perfect was complete the images will be clear, as clear as seeing some one face to face. It is obvious he is talking of a metaphor thru that whole verse passage. Since you have taken my potion before( As you stated), you should have known that one.

[Slug1]

Do you have any links to any of these earlier posts? I would love to read some of them, then try and determine when exactly you did a 360. Mostly out of curiosity tho, and not to try to pit your past against you. Did it happen overnight when you finally changed your mind? Or were you still fighting it, yet slowly changing your mind all the while? Ironically, I did the exact opposite. In the 80s I would have been where you are today. But now I'm where you were yesterday, meaning before you changed your mind, and you're where I was in the 80s before I changed my mind in the 90s.

See post #59 >>Click<<

This is a very brief testimony.

OK... in doing some investigating. At the bottom of this thread is a link to a thread titled: The "faith" of Speaking in Tongues". This thread, you will see that I made no posts in this thread. I was in the process of surrender to God and He was preparing me for the day I'd witness (in person and experiencing the POWER of the Holy Spirit manifest in my presence) some speaking in tongues, and interpretation edified me (and my wife).

Here is a thread I posted in the day AFTER this experience: >>Click<< (hmmmm, maybe the surrendering was longer than a year... I know it began about the beginning of 2006)

As for threads where I was completely AGAINST tongues due to what I witnessed on TV, vids, whatever and only drove me deeper into the cessationist bondage (due to this bondage I AVOIDED ALL churches or Christians who allowed the Holy Spirit the freedom to manifest in power and in so doing this, satan was always leading me to view vids and TV where he was moving people in counterfeit or faking tongues)... I don't think they are on the open board. Most were closed back then or many of my posts were deleted by the Mods anyway. The bondage made me a very ugly person as I treated any who allowed the Holy Spirit the freedom to use them as vessels, as a BUNCH OF NUT CASES. So many posts were deleted due to my "ugly" comments and attitude back then.

[divaD]

Here is a thread I posted in the day AFTER this experience: >>Click<< (hmmmm, maybe the surrendering was longer than a year... I know it began about the beginning of 2006)

Thanks. I just browsed thru that thread. Post #33 seems to be when you say you experienced someone speaking in tongues for the first time in person and not on tv. It's ironic how you mentioned you were only familiar with tongues via tv. In the 80s, that's how I was tirst familiar with tongues myself. Especially via Robert Tilton. He was my hero back then, so to speak. I was convinced there was no greater man of God on the planet, well until I started watching Benny Hinn. Man was I naive back in those days, in regards to these folks on tv. As far as these days tho, I don't watch any religious programming on tv anymore.

As to that thread you provided a link to, I was going to also read what the starter of that thread had to say, but he was too long winded for my tastes.

[Watchman]

Charlie hired a translator the first time he went. After he spoke for awhile, the people started raising their hands, smiling, and speaking in spanish. He didn't understand them and the translator had said nothing. He asked the translator if he was going to translate the first part of the message and the translator told him there was no need because they've understood you and are praising God for what has been said. These people knew no english, and Charlie knew no spanish.

W

Not to be the wet blanket on such a warm story...
However reality is different.
Being in Spanish countries many times. Peru, Columbia, Mexico, Costa Rica..etc..
They know a lot of English.
I have been very remote, even there they know English, because many of them have worked in the USA.

It is irrelevant where you've been with regard to this true story. These people did not know english...the speaker does not know spanish. That is a fact in this case. That is not to say that some might know a few words of english, or that Charlie might know a few spanish words. But the entire message was heard and received and it was of God. You cannot honestly dispute that with any sort of credibility. Now, if remaining for you is questioning my veracity, that of my sources, or that of the other posters in this thread, then kindly bow out of this discussion, because you have nothing of edifying value to offer. Barbs and jabs have no place here. You have failed to prove your exegesis of the passages referenced by yourself, which transforms it to eisegesis--and that is the equivalent of putting words in our Father's mouth.

Tongues were given to all...not just for the Jews. Paul plainly stated that tongues are a sign for unbelievers in 1 Corinthians 14:22. Yes, they started as a sign for the Jews; however, once the Gentiles began to receive Christ, and Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles specifically, tongues became a sign for any who did not and do not believe. This, too, is a fact in this discussion. You're playing prooftext poker by taking a single verse and camping on it. Your hermeneutic is absolutely flawed.

blessings,

Andy

PS: Since the tone of this post cannot be adequately perceived in this medium, I will add that I'm not angry or upset...just being straightforward.

[Colight]

It is irrelevant where you've been with regard to this true story. These people did not know english...the speaker does not know spanish. That is a fact in this case. That is not to say that some might know a few words of english, or that Charlie might know a few spanish words. But the entire message was heard and received and it was of God. You cannot honestly dispute that with any sort of credibility.

Sorry but I can,
I have spent months perhaps years in Spanish countries, English is quite wide spread.
To say it is not, means frankly you and not familiar with the area and willing to believe any warm stories that comes down the pike.

Now, if remaining for you is questioning my veracity, that of my sources, or that of the other posters in this thread, then kindly bow out of this discussion, because you have nothing of edifying value to offer.

Truth is quite edifying, frankly it is a lie to state that English is not wide spread in Spanish countries.
Many of the road signs are in English as is restaurant menus news papers there is s a huge push in the school to learn English so they can go to Gringo land and make lots of Yankee Dollars.

Also keep in note that when workers return from the USA they know English and teach others English.

And there are perhaps thousands if not tens of thousands of American jobs in Mexico and other Latin Countries many of these jobs require a familiarity of the English language.

Many older Americans retire to Latin countries to have their retirement money spread out longer they hire nannies, House keepers, drivers, and security personal. Not to mention the tourists, many English people I have encountered in Latin countries know little Spanish, yet they are hiking across country staying in Hostels and motels, to get in tune with local culture.

Exactly what Latin countries have you spent time in?

Barbs and jabs have no place here. You have failed to prove your exegesis of the passages referenced by yourself, which transforms it to eisegesis--and that is the equivalent of putting words in our Father's mouth.

Questioning the validity of no one in a Spanish country knowing English is not a barb or job, especially when I have been there and seen wide spread English use. Again that does not make a nice warm little testimony, but it gets down to the truth. We are not to be slaves to warm emotional stories we are to seek and love truth.

Tongues were given to all...not just for the Jews. Paul plainly stated that tongues are a sign for unbelievers in 1 Corinthians 14:22. Yes, they started as a sign for the Jews; however, once the Gentiles began to receive Christ, and Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles specifically, tongues became a sign for any who did not and do not believe. This, too, is a fact in this discussion. You're playing prooftext poker by taking a single verse and camping on it. Your hermeneutic is absolutely flawed.

Yes it is limited amount on tongues because it was such a small gift in both time it was used and who it was meant to minister too.
You figure if it was SUCH as great a gift as you are making it out to be they would have spent more time discussing it. It was a temporary gift, that had faded by 70ad, there fore not much time was spent on it. Even Paul stated they would CEASE, thru their USE they brought about their own stillness.
What is being added to scripture is when you say they started out as a sign, but now we still need them, that IS NOT in scripture.
Paul him self stated

1 Cor 14:19
14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Paul him self stated that tongues are 2000 times inferior to sound teaching, so why focus on trying to duplicate something that is so inferior to sound teaching? We have the complete Bible now.. They didnt.. The Complete is here... tongues are not.

[Watchman]

Sorry but I can,
I have spent months perhaps years in Spanish countries, English is quite wide spread.
To say it is not, means frankly you and not familiar with the area and willing to believe any warm stories that comes down the pike.

You are entitled to your opinion, but that is all it is. I'll not argue with you about this. It happened exactly as related. End of discussion.

Truth is quite edifying, frankly it is a lie to state that English is not wide spread in Spanish countries.
Many of the road signs are in English as is restaurant menus news papers there is s a huge push in the school to learn English so they can go to Gringo land and make lots of Yankee Dollars.

Also keep in note that when workers return from the USA they know English and teach others English.

And there are perhaps thousands if not tens of thousands of American jobs in Mexico and other Latin Countries many of these jobs require a familiarity of the English language.

Many older Americans retire to Latin countries to have their retirement money spread out longer they hire nannies, House keepers, drivers, and security personal. Not to mention the tourists, many English people I have encountered in Latin countries know little Spanish, yet they are hiking across country staying in Hostels and motels, to get in tune with local culture.

Exactly what Latin countries have you spent time in?

I have spent considerable time in Mexico...which is the country referenced above. As I said, end of discussion.

You figure if it was SUCH as great a gift as you are making it out to be they would have spent more time discussing it. It was a temporary gift, that had faded by 70ad, there fore not much time was spent on it. Even Paul stated they would CEASE, thru their USE they brought about their own stillness. What is being added to scripture is when you say they started out as a sign, but now we still need them, that IS NOT in scripture. Paul him self stated

1 Cor 14:19
14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Paul him self stated that tongues are 2000 times inferior to sound teaching, so why focus on trying to duplicate something that is so inferior to sound teaching? We have the complete Bible now.. They didnt.. The Complete is here... tongues are not.

Nobody is promoting tongues as being a great sign. I agree with Paul. Prophecy is always better...which is my gifting. The complete being the Bible is the weakest interpretation imaginable...even weaker than the gender argument about perfect being neuter and Jesus being masculine...because there are exceptions to that 'rule' found in the NT. It's off-topic to continue this part here, so another thread is forthcoming!

blessings,

W

[Colight]

Watchman

The complete being the Bible is the weakest interpretation imaginable...even weaker than the gender argument about perfect being neuter and Jesus being masculine...because there are exceptions to that 'rule' found in the NT. It's off-topic to continue this part here, so another thread is forthcoming!

The Fact is.... we have the BIBLE, they didn't.
All the prophecy and knowledge that we need to know is complete in the Bible.
What do we need to know that is not contained in it?
We have everything needed to reach the spiritual maturity.

It is the complete. As Paul stated...
1 cor 13

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child(Tongues), think like a child( gift of prophesy) , reason like a child( gift of knowledge); when I became a man, I did away with childish things.

With the Bible here the life of acting like a Child has come to a end.
Therefore tongues , gift of prophesy, gift of knowledge.. are all compared to being Childish, Immature.

Even Paul stated the Corinth Congregation was babies, when it came to spiritual matters.. ( 1 cor 3:1)
And they had legit tongues as a gift.
Why would you want to act like a bunch of babies?
( this is the bible speaking here, Paul used the word child.. not me.. if it offends take it up with Paul.)
Why would you want to strive to stay in Child hood, when we have access to full maturity?

Think it is time to grow up ( In a spiritual sense)?

[Watchman]

There is now a thread on this topic, sir.

W

[Slug1]

Even Paul stated the Corinth Congregation was babies, when it came to spiritual matters.. ( 1 cor 3:1)
And they had legit tongues as a gift.
Why would you want to act like a bunch of babies?
( this is the bible speaking here, Paul used the word child.. not me.. if it offends take it up with Paul.)
Why would you want to strive to stay in Child hood, when we have access to full maturity?

Think it is time to grow up ( In a spiritual sense)?

Context, Context, Context!!!

If your conclusion of 1 Cor 3:1 is correct, then why does Paul CONCLUDE his entire discipling of the Corinthians of PROPER usage and orderly exercising of the Gift of speaking in different kinds of tongues as this?

1 Cor 14:37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.[e]

39 Therefore, brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

If what you state is accurate, then why does Paul conclude the EXACT opposite as you would? Paul is NOT telling the Corinthians it is childish to speak in tongues. All the way back in 1 Cor 3, the proper context is Paul telling the Corinthians they are childish due to NOT having the mind of Christ at the moment (read scriptures before and after 1 Cor 3:1). Thus another reason why Paul had to go to Corinth and knock some sense into their heads through proper discipleship and learning.

So... we all have the choice to say NO to the Holy Spirit, in so doing... we have also chosen to be ignorant. We are told to LET them be ignorant, hard to do sometimes when all one has to do is offer help as Paul does.

You see the problem with your understanding is all about what I mentioned earlier in a post. If you are in a church full of mature MEAT eating Christians and one day a person accepts Christ, they (the new Christian) is now as the Corinthians were... a babe.

Are a bunch of mature Christians gonna tell that babe to not speak in tongues if the Holy Spirit empowers them to speak in tongues? Now that is childish as well and not Christ minded. If the Holy Spirit is empowering and anyone says NO... not good.

If they do... they are acting far from mature, the fruit of telling ANY Christian NOT to speak in tongues if the Holy Spirit has gifted them with this specific gift is... ignorant.

Paul SPECIFICALLY said NOT to prevent Christians from speaking in tongues, what he instructed are commandments of the Lord.