"Speaking In Tongues" shall cease

[Colight]

Faith however is what God uses to show us and OTHERS that our faith is real. James speaks about this in detail.

If there is something God has to "show" us, would be a sign..
Therefore not faith.
We are to live by faith, not signs.

Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

I actually TOTALLY agree with you that we are NOT to LOOK for signs and miraculous events. This however, does not mean that God will not move in power through men and women of God today.

That would be a sign.
Today it is only about faith, no signs, no miraculous events.

You seem to imply that living "by" faith... means God won't or CAN'T move in power in a Christian's life or through the Body of Christ at all.

Again that would not fall under the banner of faith. God gave us all we needed. We need no signs, we need no miracles.
For

Matthew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Seems man does fear the supernatural. That word alone generates thoughts of "evil" and not good. God works in power as Paul states and this is the supernatural. So what man fears, they avoid. What man don't understand, they avoid. What man don't want to accept, they avoid.

Why is faith not enough?
If one is focused on signs and wonders, soon that is all they are into.
the thrill of the events, rather than the silence of the doctrine.

This is why we have churches without the power of God and people believing that God don't do miracles or empower the Body of Christ with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Better to be "safe" in a church that God has NEVER moved supernaturally. This is also why when a person who has this lack of understanding, don't want to HAVE this understanding, or actually fear the power of God... they speak out against God Himself when He is manifesting any of His supernatural gifts through the Body of Christ today in other churches. They speak out against other Christians who testify of God moving in their lives supernaturally.

Since you take a jab at those churches who dont need signs or wonders, would it be only fair to analyze the motives that occur in the worship services of each Church?
Remember you opened this can of worms, by stating they have a lack of understanding.

Shall I go into what the understanding is that occurs in churches of power.
I have over 30 years of personal observation of the POWER LUSTS, the Gossip circles, the show offs, the women gone batty after a pastor who dared speak a word of truth in their presence, the spiritual bullying..etc....

I guarantee you would shut down a thread after one in depth post as to the real motivations occurring in those churches.

We just can't take a single scripture about faith as in Hebrew 10:38 and say that God isn't gonna do a miracle in a person's life or NOT allow them to walk in the POWER of God. Relationship in God is to experience His power and also to be USED in power by God so He is glorified when a person is empowered to do any of the supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Scary stuff... I ran away from the supernatural for years when I would rather hold to my belief that God HAD NO POWER to be exercised through servants obedient to Him.

Sorry but:
To seek an emotional experience repudiates the command to walk by faith and is, in fact, an insult to God.

2 Cor 5: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

[Tony N]

Jesus said that signs will follow believers. He didn't say just for a few years. The imbalance come when believers seek signs. The early church fathers testify to the continuation of spiritual gifts. By the wag don't confuse the writing of the New testament with the gift of prophecy. The NT was not written by prophets but by apostles, in contrast to the OT.NT prophets like Agabus did not write scripture, they just prophesied.prophecy today does not write scripture, it speaks in line with what has already been written down, just as in NT days

[Colight]

Jesus said that signs will follow believers. He didn't say just for a few years. The imbalance come when believers seek signs. The early church fathers testify to the continuation of spiritual gifts. By the wag don't confuse the writing of the New testament with the gift of prophecy. The NT was not written by prophets but by apostles, in contrast to the OT.NT prophets like Agabus did not write scripture, they just prophesied.prophecy today does not write scripture, it speaks in line with what has already been written down, just as in NT days

IT was quite clear when Pauls stated :



1 Cor 14:21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people(of Israel); and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. ²²Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

The purpose of tongues was a sign to the UNBELIEVING JEWS of upcoming destruction and discipline.
When that destruction occurred in 70ad, the sign of that destruction came to a end.

Therefore proper tongues ended around 70ad.

Tongues their their used worked to their own end, their purpose was to warn of the destruction of Israel. When that warning as complete they ended and so did Israel as a nation of God in 70ad.

[Slug1]

2 Cor 5: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

Amen! Are those who are faithful allowed to say NO to the Holy Spirit when God is to use them as a vessel to knock out a miracle or manifest any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

[Slug1]

IT was quite clear when Pauls stated :



1 Cor 14:21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people(of Israel); and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. ²²Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

The purpose of tongues was a sign to the UNBELIEVING JEWS of upcoming destruction and discipline.
When that destruction occurred in 70ad, the sign of that destruction came to a end.

Therefore proper tongues ended around 70ad.

Tongues their their used worked to their own end, their purpose was to warn of the destruction of Israel. When that warning as complete they ended and so did Israel as a nation of God in 70ad.

Can you support all this through the scriptures... especially with Jesus telling the Body of Christ to go out into the entire world and for those who believe and do the work of spreading the Gospel, signs/wonders will follow?

This task was only for the next several decades?

Also, if what you say is true, then why are those who spread the Gospel and who are faithful... STILL used by God today and the manifestation of tongues continues?

If you believe these supernatural manifestations of tongues aren't from God and the power of the Holy Spirit moving in power upon the Body of Christ... then who/what/how are Christians empowered in supernatural tongues today?

[divaD]

Can you support all this through the scriptures... especially with Jesus telling the Body of Christ to go out into the entire world and for those who believe and do the work of spreading the Gospel, signs/wonders will follow?

This task was only for the next several decades?

Also, if what you say is true, then why are those who spread the Gospel and who are faithful... STILL used by God today and the manifestation of tongues continues?

If you believe these supernatural manifestations of tongues aren't from God and the power of the Holy Spirit moving in power upon the Body of Christ... then who/what/how are Christians empowered in supernatural tongues today?

I would think Mark 16:20 gives us the correct context of Mark 16:15 and 17.

Here's what 16:15 and 17 says.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Here's what Mark 16:20 says.

Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Who would be the 'they'? Everyone from that time until Christ returns, or just those that Christ said that to in verse 15? I would think it was meaning those at the time. And it looks like to me they did exactly as Jesus had instructed them to do when He said...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature..in which they did...And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them.

Then verse 17 states this...And these signs shall follow them that believe...which then too was fulfilled here...the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs. The way it looks to me then, you would have to show how the 'they' in verse 20 is meaning anyone other than those at the time, being this is based on historic events at the time. All I'm trying to do is to keep things in context, in regards to this particular passage. Not trying to imply anything in relation to what is happening or not happening in the church these days.

[Colight]

slug1

Also, if what you say is true, then why are those who spread the Gospel and who are faithful... STILL used by God today and the manifestation of tongues continues?

Here goes,.
You will not like what I state..

Being raised in that environment I was raised in and the work I do in the entertainment industry...

They are quite counterfeit.
From what I have seen they are nothing more than a learned act.
They are a source of confusion, they in no way enhance growth in the spiritual life.
God is not the author of confusion, tongues today are the very essence of confusion,.

If you believe these supernatural manifestations of tongues aren't from God and the power of the Holy Spirit moving in power upon the Body of Christ... then who/what/how are Christians empowered in supernatural tongues today?

Again you are asking me personally, so I will tell you..
You will not like what I say.
It is not edifying, but it is the truth as from a view out of my experience from a professional in the entertainment industry.

They are a learned act, just like how one learns a song to sing.
The tongues that are uttered are a result of coaching from others.
If it is coached, it is not of the Spirit..

Ever Notice how they all follow the same patterns.
Lots of music and emotion..huge drum sets and sound systems..
the only way you can really belong is if you join in the show..
a great build up.. a release...
Now you are all comrades after going thru that experience together.
The show has givin its participants the ( mental or physical) release they needed, no different than a rock concert.

These are not my words, rather the word of several professionals in the music industry..
There is certain format they follow in shows they do are to get a release out of the audience..
they compare that release to more of a sexual nature.
The same formats are performed in these churches where tongues are practiced.
They are serving the flesh and their emotions rather than Christ.

My very business is show business, this is what they do... it is all a show.. a act.
And you bought into it as reality.

Rom 16:18
For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.”

We are to live by faith not supernatural manifestations..
if you want supernatural manifestations watch ghost hunters or something.
That stuff is really not part of the church.

we are NEVER to take experience over doctrine.
we are never ordered to go seek a supernatural experience
We are order to renew our minds to the thinking of Christ and this is done thru study.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

We are not order to go have a emotion high to show our self approved onto God, rather the silence of study of God word is one of the most beautiful sounds there is to heaven

[Slug1]

I would think Mark 16:20 gives us the correct context of Mark 16:15 and 17.

Here's what 16:15 and 17 says.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Here's what Mark 16:20 says.

Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Who would be the 'they'? Everyone from that time until Christ returns, or just those that Christ said that to in verse 15? I would think it was meaning those at the time. And it looks like to me they did exactly as Jesus had instructed them to do when He said...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature..in which they did...And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them.

Then verse 17 states this...And these signs shall follow them that believe...which then too was fulfilled here...the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs. The way it looks to me then, you would have to show how the 'they' in verse 20 is meaning anyone other than those at the time, being this is based on historic events at the time. All I'm trying to do is to keep things in context, in regards to this particular passage. Not trying to imply anything in relation to what is happening or not happening in the church these days.

I've always read those scriptures as the "theys, them, those" as the present Body of Christ until Christ returns. I added the emphasis points between all the ().

v15 And He said to them (the Apostles), “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He (= everyone else BESIDES the Apostles) who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those (= the Body of Christ) who ( = all believers and faithful in Christ): In My name they ( = the Body of Christ) will cast out demons; they ( = any faithful believer) will speak with new tongues; 18 they ( = any faithful believer) will take up serpents; and if they ( = any faithful believer) drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them ( = any faithful believer); they ( = any faithful believer) will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Here is another reason why this scripture (the Great Commission) isn't ONLY for those 11. Paul did it, Phillip did it, Timothy did it and others as well. Check this scripture out where a bunch of UNKNOWNS were successfully casting out demons in Jesus' name and this upset the Apostles:

Mark 9: 38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.

Luke 9:49 Now John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.” 50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side.”

So by these examples (Paul, Philip, Timothy) and scriptures about these "unknowns" doing some of the work that the Great Commission is ALL about... we can't even ASSUME that the Great Commission was ONLY for those 11 men and would only last for a period of several decades.

Jesus even prepared the model... first He prepared the 12, then he empowered the 12, then he prepared and empowered the 70, then He prepared and empowered the Body of Christ. The scriptures are all in sequential order in the Bible as Jesus prepared ultimately what was to be the Body of Christ.

So based on the progression of the work that Jesus established for this model... it is continued today THROUGH the Body of Christ today and will continue until His return. All that goes WITH the task of the Great Commission which also continues today.

[Slug1]

They are quite counterfeit.

You discerned this through the empowerment of the Holy Spirit?

If the only tongues you have witnessed are what you describe in the rest of your post... I get you 100%. There is NO need for the gift of discernment to be in action. Common sense discerns they are fake.

However, if satan supernaturally empowered people to speak in tongues (like your experience in India)... was the gift of discernment active through you and the Holy Spirit even revealed what type of demon was using that man to speak in "tongues" as a false sign on a supernatural level?

From what I have seen they are nothing more than a learned act.

I have witnessed this as well. I am not speaking about this. In all my posts, I stress... "supernatural" tongues empowered by the Holy Spirit. If you continue to talk about the fake tongues and I keep talking about tongues in accordance with scripture, then we will forever be talking about two entirely different topics. This thread is about scriptural supernatural tongues empowered ONLY through the Holy Spirit.

They are a source of confusion, they in no way enhance growth in the spiritual life.

AMEN... now, lets talk about the proper ORDER of supernatural tongues that brings edification and not confusion.

God is not the author of confusion, tongues today are the very essence of confusion,.

AMEN... many in the Body of Christ are suffering from the same LACK OF LOVE that the Corinthians suffered from due to a lack of discipleship in the proper and orderly operation of the gift of "different kindS of tongeus".

Are you willing to disciple those who are in the same error as the Corinthians or just use them as a reason not to believe in the gift of tongues in operation today?

It is not edifying, but it is the truth as from a view out of my experience from a professional in the entertainment industry.

They are a learned act, just like how one learns a song to sing.
The tongues that are uttered are a result of coaching from others.
If it is coached, it is not of the Spirit..

Hooah, I agree. I have witnessed Christians telling other Christians that they can "teach" them to speak in tongues. This is a travesty.

Ever Notice how they all follow the same patterns.
Lots of music and emotion..huge drum sets and sound systems..
the only way you can really belong is if you join in the show..
a great build up.. a release...
Now you are all comrades after going thru that experience together.
The show has givin its participants the ( mental or physical) release they needed, no different than a rock concert.

Hooah! Have you ever been in a church where the gift of tongues operates in the order per the scriptures... you can hear a pin drop unless the people are speaking. All others are receiving edification. If music was being played... it is lowered so the church can hear the tongues being spoken and then listen to the person interpreting.

Rom 16:18
For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple.”

We are to live by faith not supernatural manifestations..
if you want supernatural manifestations watch ghost hunters or something.
That stuff is really not part of the church.

As long as God wants to glorify Himself, is He then limited to only those who won't say NO to the Holy Spirit?

we are NEVER to take experience over doctrine.

I totally agree and have expressed this. However, scripture is clear that God can and will and does move miraculously when He wants... who are we to say NO to the Holy Spirit when God wants to glorify Himself?

Let me ask you this... a church full of MATURE meat eating Christians, their faith is SO secure in Christ that the Holy Spirit doesn't need to move in "power" or supernaturally for any of them. Then one day a person is drawn by the Holy Spirit from the street as they walk by the church during a Sunday service. They come in to attend and listen to the service/sermon.

Now... if God wants to add credence to the message for this person so that they would KNOW that God is real and He plans to do this through a sign/wonder... is the faith of those already members of the church SO STRONG that they can be bold enough to NOT allow themselves to be used by the Holy Spirit?

I wonder... this is me thinking, I WONDER if a simple reason why some/many churches who ARE mature have never moved in the POWER of God on a supernatural level, that this is the reason? That they have matured themselves right away from being able to be USED BY God on a supernatural level? That if God plans to do a s/w/m for those who are weaker in faith, then He's restricted to churches who WILL allow Him to move on a supernatural level?

Something to think about.

[divaD]

I've always read those scriptures as the "theys, them, those" as the present Body of Christ until Christ returns. I added the emphasis points between all the ().

v15 And He said to them (the Apostles), “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He (= everyone else BESIDES the Apostles) who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those (= the Body of Christ) who ( = all believers and faithful in Christ): In My name they ( = the Body of Christ) will cast out demons; they ( = any faithful believer) will speak with new tongues; 18 they ( = any faithful believer) will take up serpents; and if they ( = any faithful believer) drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them ( = any faithful believer); they ( = any faithful believer) will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Here is another reason why this scripture (the Great Commission) isn't ONLY for those 11. Paul did it, Phillip did it, Timothy did it and others as well. Check this scripture out where a bunch of UNKNOWNS were successfully casting out demons in Jesus' name and this upset the Apostles:

Mark 9: 38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.” 39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.

Luke 9:49 Now John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.” 50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us is on our side.”

So by these examples (Paul, Philip, Timothy) and scriptures about these "unknowns" doing some of the work that the Great Commission is ALL about... we can't even ASSUME that the Great Commission was ONLY for those 11 men and would only last for a period of several decades.

Jesus even prepared the model... first He prepared the 12, then he empowered the 12, then he prepared and empowered the 70, then He prepared and empowered the Body of Christ. The scriptures are all in sequential order in the Bible as Jesus prepared ultimately what was to be the Body of Christ.

So based on the progression of the work that Jesus established for this model... it is continued today THROUGH the Body of Christ today and will continue until His return. All that goes WITH the task of the Great Commission which also continues today.

Your conclusions are very logical. I indeed see how you conclude that. So at this point in time, I'm not going to argue with your conclusions, I'll ponder them tho. So instead, I'll give you my perspective, so that you can at least see how I might be reasoning things as well.


Here's my perspective, be it right or wrong. As to what was recorded in Mark 16, these folks never had the NT as of yet. So a lot of it would be via word of mouth, door to door so to speak. Notice again what it says here.

Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.


Mainly this part...and confirming the word with signs following. This would be before we would have all this in written form, IOW the NT. Now notice what this following passage states, keeping in mind, trying to keep things in context.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


Verse 30 says....And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book. That then agrees with what was recorded while He physically walked the earth, plus .Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Except of course, some of it wasn't recorded. But doesn't the book of Acts also show how that happened, the word being confirmed with signs following? It wouldn't be required that Jesus has to be bodily present, in order to be in the presence of His disciples, right?. Remember, I said those at the time, which would eventually include Paul.


According to John 20, since this would now be in written form for all to read, the reason these things were done, these signs in the presence of his disciples, is so that you and I, when we read these accounts that we might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing we might have life through his name. With that in mind, why in these days, after the written word, would the Lord still need to be confirming the word with signs following, when what is written is all that we need in order to believe? I was raised a Baptist.. So that meant that it was faith alone in the written word is the reason I believed, since Baptists weren't known to be Charismatic or anything. At least not back then. I have no clue about these days tho, since I'm no longer a Baptist. But the point is, many of us believe simply based on the facts of what is stated in the Word. Why do we need more than that? Jesus told Thomas that one is blessed when they believe, yet have not seen.

[Colight]

slug1

I totally agree and have expressed this. However, scripture is clear that God can and will and does move miraculously when He wants... who are we to say NO to the Holy Spirit when God wants to glorify Himself?

Sorry but it does not work that way..
You are trying a emotional appeal.. a plea to the heart..we are in a state where emotions are never to be trusted.

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked....

Now we should trust that which is wicked for doctrinal choices??

The same BIBLE states the use of tongues.
And it was ONLY used as a sign to Israel, when that destruction occurred that sign ended.

So how is a by-gone sign of destruction some thing that God would need to use to glorify and prove him self to man?

If man is not even content with the existence of creation as proof of God.
Some tongues is really not going to improve their belief.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Are you trying to add external teaching to the solid teaching of the scripture in effort justify some emotional act that in no way adds to spiritual growth or soundness. For the church of Corinth exercised tongues,and they were labeled "carnal" and "babies". 1Cor.3:1-3.

Now... if God wants to add credence to the message for this person so that they would KNOW that God is real and He plans to do this through a sign/wonder... is the faith of those already members of the church SO STRONG that they can be bold enough to NOT allow themselves to be used by the Holy Spirit?

I wonder... this is me thinking, I WONDER if a simple reason why some/many churches who ARE mature have never moved in the POWER of God on a supernatural level, that this is the reason? That they have matured themselves right away from being able to be USED BY God on a supernatural level? That if God plans to do a s/w/m for those who are weaker in faith, then He's restricted to churches who WILL allow Him to move on a supernatural level?

Yet,
We have the complete word of God, there is no need for signs or prophecy when we have the mind of Christ in written form, if they want to learn more or have validation, they can read the bible.

Only the wicked seeks signs.

Matt 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;.....




Why Tongues are not active today
1) They are a learned and coached act
2) Believers are to live by Faith, not emotional signs and glorious miracles.
3) Tongues was a sign to the Unbelieving Jews of up and coming destruction. When that destruction occurred, the sign ended.
4) The use of tongues to day, is a service to ones own belly for tongues encourages the sins of pride and envy, neglecting the diversity and balance in the Holy Spirit's distribution of spiritual gifts: 1Cor.12:4-1; Rom.12:4-8.
5) Tongues did not mark spirituality or maturity as seen for the Corinthians who were labeled "carnal" and "babies", 1Cor.3:1-3, and yet who exercised tongues, 1Cor 12-14. - So Never is "tongues" a sign to a believer that he/she is "spiritual"

[Slug1]

Only the wicked seeks signs.

Matt 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;.....

You have this in the wrong context... the correct context is that the Pharisees were seeking for Christ to do a miraculous work so they could USE it as evidence AGAINST Him. Jesus clearly discerned this and that is why He called them wicked.

It is NOT in the context that people are wicked for seeking God's s/w/m. Scripture must be kept in proper context and understanding.

[Colight]

You have this in the wrong context... the correct context is that the Pharisees were seeking for Christ to do a miraculous work so they could USE it as evidence AGAINST Him. Jesus clearly discerned this and that is why He called them wicked.

It is NOT in the context that people are wicked for seeking God's s/w/m. Scripture must be kept in proper context and understanding.

Oh but it is in the right Context..
If God has to prove him self with some sign,
then the one he has to prove himself to is a "A wicked and adulterous generation"

One who is living by faith has no need of signs.
God will not give us signs when we are commanded to LIVE by Faith.

Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

In faith there is no signs.

[Slug1]

Oh but it is in the right Context..
If God has to prove him self with some sign,
then the one he has to prove himself to is a "A wicked and adulterous generation"

One who is living by faith has no need of signs.
God will not give us signs when we are commanded to LIVE by Faith.

Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

In faith there is no signs.

Negative... only those who will use a s/w/m AGAINST God... is wicked. The Pharisee's and the people on their side were not seeking of the heart. They were seeking in the flesh to pin a charge against Jesus. Their purpose was unjust and wicked, thus Jesus called them out on this truth.

I agree with you, for about the 5th time... those of faith don't NEED s/w/m.

However, if God is to WANT to do one, they (those of faith in Christ) also can't say NO because their faith don't need it. It's NOT FOR THEIR FAITH, it's for God to bring glory to Himself.

[Watchman]

Lots of assumptions being made in this thread. Here are two:

1. faith and miracles are mutually exclusive
2. all present-day miracles are counterfeit

While I agree that believers do not need signs to confirm their faith, they often need healing or other manifestations of the Spirit such as prophesy, discernment, etc. Further, if faith and miracles are mutually exclusive, then why does the Holy Spirit manifest through some miraculously? Even if you're a cessationist, the Spirit manifested through some of the Corinthian saints via miracles...according to Paul. If they were believers, then why the miracles. Finally, there are millions and billions of unbelievers on the planet today. Since tongues were a sign to unbelievers (and NOT only to the Jews) in the days of Paul, then why would they not still be the same? The ONLY gifts that were said would cease in 1 Corinthians 13 are tongues, prophecy, and knowledge; consequently the rest should be considered as ongoing...even to a cessationist. It is eisegesis to try to claim that Paul really meant all the manifestations of the Spirit would cease when he specifically named only 3!

blessings,

Watchman