guest
Excuse me, It is fact..Originally Posted by Watchman
In books written after 1 Corinthians, Tongues really is not mentioned.
As I have pointed out...
Tongues thru their use, caused them self to fade.
Therefore this is in line with my position.
Your position is left struggling ( If you are honest ) to explain why SUCH a HUGE spiritual gift as tongues has really no further mention beyond 1 Corinthians.
As righteous as Christ.
If you argument is that the scriptures are that which is perfect, why then, did tongues die (according to your argument) out prior to the last scriptures being written? IOW, Based on your statement above, it appears you are saying they died out before the scriptures were completed which contradicts what 1 cor 13 states IF it is talking about the scriptures being perfect.
"May the Lamb that was slain receive the just reward for His sufferings." A quote by Moravian missionary that sold himself (along with a friend) into slavery to reach those that the slave owner prevented from hearing the gospel.
May I live for Him and not for me.
guest
My Position has been that Tongues was to warn Israel of the up coming Roman Firestorm of 70 ad and ended before or around that time.
The Position of the tongues speakers here on this board has been that Tongues will die out when Christ returns ( aka they say the gender neutral Perfect = Christ ).
Therefore by providing the PERFECT = Scriptures, which is the context of that passage.
Now they have some explaining to do.
As righteous as Christ.
Then why wasn't tongues mentioned in later scriptures? Did it die out before the scriptures were completed?
"May the Lamb that was slain receive the just reward for His sufferings." A quote by Moravian missionary that sold himself (along with a friend) into slavery to reach those that the slave owner prevented from hearing the gospel.
May I live for Him and not for me.
I live here!
Why would tongues needed to be used to convey that? A lot of folks conclude that Jesus conveyed that to them when He walked the earth, and that it is recorded in the gospels. If this is so, I don't see where Jesus ever used tongues to convey this message to them. My guess might be that other tongues could be meaning Gentiles, as opposed to Jews. So IOW, Gentiles might be a sign to the unbelieving Jews. IOW..maybe like this.
1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law it is written, With GENTILES will I speak unto this people THE ETHNIC UNBELIEVING JEWS; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
Now compare that to this.
Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
It seems to me then, that God might be trying to get thru to His people via Gentiles, IOW with men of other tongues and other lips, while at the same time having mercy upon all, because now salvation is for all, including the branches that were broken off, if they abide not still in unbelief.
2 Chronicles 7:15-16
Explaining has been done... there is an entire NEW thread devoted to this topic here: >>Click<<
Seems to me, no more explaining is needed.
LISTENING is what needs to happen.
Paul explained that WHEN that which IS Perfect has come, we will be known... we will be face to face. This is about "personal" relationship. Christ is the Perfect. Also... he states in verse 12 that... "//....BUT THEN...// this is all about when the "perfect" IS come. He died before the canonization/completion of what was to become the Bible, YET... Paul is still led by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to write that he WILL experience the perfect on a PERSONAL level.
v10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
Also... this is what the Bible accomplishes for us as a Body of Christ:
2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
The Bible is "profitable" enough to accomplish all what it specified in these scriptures. Complete... NOT perfect.
As God proves all throughout the world when supernatural tongues, knowledge and prophetic words are manifested in glory to God, people have a choice... either hold to their belief and ignore what God is doing all around them or remove the blindness (man made doctrines, false belief, misunderstanding of scripture due to contextual removal, religion) and SEE that these gifts of the Holy Spirit are still manifested throughout the Body of Christ, all throughout the world.
Slug1--out
~Do not quench the Spirit ~ 1 Thessalonians 5:19~
~"So what hardship are you willing to endure, to see My will accomplished through you?"~
~Your relationship isn't knowing "ABOUT" GOD! Relationship is to "KNOW" GOD,
so that in the end and you stand before Him for the first time in heaven… HE KNOWS YOU~
~Do we, as Christians witness Jesus to the lost because we love Jesus? Or do we witness Jesus to the lost because we love them as Jesus loves them?~
~A prompting from God means that you are to DO. Thinking, causes you to... NOT DO!~
~Being on the tall mountain is where "you" go, to meet with God. Being in the deep valley is where "God" goes, to meet with you!~
Jesus is Lord
For starters, your sarcasm is duly noted and unappreciated. Next, you have, as you are wont to do, cherry-picked a couple of passages that seem to support your pov. So let’s take a closer look, shall we?
You are really stretching in you assumption that, since James was written after 1 Corinthians, and since James doesn’t mention tongues, then tongues have died out. That is the poorest of logic. Your first premise is correct, your second premise is correct, your conclusion does not follow. Ever heard of a non sequitur? You just gave a textbook example of such. Eisegesis also describes this.
Our little friend, teleios, does not appear in 2 Timothy 3:16-17; consequently, your comparison is moot and irrelevant. Also, you neglected to mention the other uses of teleios:
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Colossians 4:12 Epaphras, who is [one] of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.
Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Hebrews 11:4 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
Given such a great cloud of witnesses to the uses of teleios, and its deriviatives, how can you possibly pick out one verse, or two, and apply it to mean the Bible? Eisegesis, that’s how. Not one of Paul's uses of teleios references the completed canon of the Bible...not ONE!
Next, you’ve yet to prove that the Corinthians would even have a notion of the Bible. The word, scripture, does not appear in the OT, but refers to it in all but one instance in the NT. The Bible, as we know it, is NOT prophesied in OT scripture, so the Corinthians surely would NOT have understood the perfect to be something that would come nearly 300 years after their collective demise.
Finally, the perfect law of liberty can be construed to be either the law of Moses or the law of Christ. I prefer the latter. The law of Christ is love…period. It has never been the scriptures. Your idea that the scriptures somehow equip, mature, prepare, fit…or whatever descriptor you want to use…people for works of service is not the meaning Paul conveyed to Timothy. The scriptures tell us the Holy Spirit will be put in us (see Ezekiel 36). The NT scriptures tell us the Holy Spirit will guide and teach us. Yes, He can, and does, use the scriptures…but they are NOT His only means of working.
W
Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.
Regular Contributor
***
From my experience and study, "tongue" could be something totally different from what we think it is. This could be heretic though but for your reference only.
"Tongue" is part of the off-body language for you to speak off-bodily and for others to hear off-bodily. Souls in Hades may speak this way, as they don't have a body. The main characteristic of "tongue" is that, no matter who speaks, you shall hear your own native tongue. Mostly you speak in your own native tongue while all others will hear their own native tongue respectively.
There are usually 2 symptoms when people with a physical body speaking in "tongue".
1. One tries to speak his own native language while God makes him speak off-bodily, and at the same time making all his audience listenning off-bodily. This shall be the case in Pentecost.
2. You (you could be gifted in this case) tried to speak off-bodily but by your effort somehow your physical tongue is out of control that your physical voice turns into gibberish to others who are unable to hear off-bodily. If God would like your message to be heard in this case, He might choose to allow one or several of your audience to be able to hear off-bodily to understand what you said, and in this case they shall hear their own native language respectively. In theory, you are still intending to speak your own native lauguage though in voice it appears to be gibberish.
("tongue" might have been ceased (?not sure yet) because most likely speaking in this way will leave physical evidence of His existence)
2 Corinthians 12:2
Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.
If you are ever brought to this state, you may have a clue about what I am talking about.
Acts 2
5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: “Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”
Citizen
**
Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for [fn1] he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
What is everyone's take on the prayer language when we pray in the Spirit? Paul said we "edify", or build up ourselves. It's apparent in corporate worship we seek to edify others, but when we are communing with God, Paul made it plain that it's a good thing, a great thing to pray in the Spirit.
Also, Paul said to come behind in no gift until the return of the Lord. Joel 2 says that in the last day God would pour out His Spirit among all flesh and the sons and daughters would prophecy. We are STILL in the last days, the same covenant. God is still healing, delivering and yes, giving His saints the prayer language. 1 Cor. 13 says God would not do away with the gifts until perfection comes. I find it hard to believe he was referring to the 1611 King James Bible
Regular Contributor
***
IMO, whenever you claim that "this is from the Holy Spirit", and when this is not an easy discernment, the best advice is just as Paul did. He recommended you to leave it between you and God. You are not recommended to refute any claim like this which is difficult to discern. Because in case he is correct, you are risking yourself of the unforgivable sin of offending the Holy Spirit. Risking of this kind shall be forbbiden.Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for [fn1] he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.
What is everyone's take on the prayer language when we pray in the Spirit? Paul said we "edify", or build up ourselves. It's apparent in corporate worship we seek to edify others, but when we are communing with God, Paul made it plain that it's a good thing, a great thing to pray in the Spirit.
Also, Paul said to come behind in no gift until the return of the Lord. Joel 2 says that in the last day God would pour out His Spirit among all flesh and the sons and daughters would prophecy. We are STILL in the last days, the same covenant. God is still healing, delivering and yes, giving His saints the prayer language. 1 Cor. 13 says God would not do away with the gifts until perfection comes. I find it hard to believe he was referring to the 1611 King James Bible
On the other hand, whenever you claim that "this is done by the Holy Spirit", you are already risking yourself of such an offense. So better leave it between God and you, unless you have a witness who can interpret what you said. In this case, it will be truly the Holy Spirit's deed, but at the same time God leaves physical evidence for you, you are truly gifted in this case.
As for prayers, Paul said that God will not listen to the prayers of the sinners, the Holy Spirit will convey your prayers to God, in whatever language, in body or out of body. Other gifts are very much different from "speaking in tongue", they don't have such a "risk". So people with such a gift, even when it is true, better leave it between God and yourself, unless this can be confirmed by an interpreter.
In essence, Paul will not rebuke you even when you deserve a big flog in this case. Instead, he sets an example of how this should be dealt with, just ask whoever claims to have this gift to leave it between him and God.
That's my take.
guest
Again If Tongues was So important It would have been mentioned in the books that was written after 1 Corinthians ( which was one of the earlier books of the NT))
Here is Logic for you..
If 1 Corinthians says that Knowledge and prophecy are Partial and Dim, and when used as a mirror you get a Foggy Image, Yet James says When Scripture is used as a mirror you get a sharp image.. There was a change in the amount and quality of scripture they had between 1 Corinthians and James.
The PERFECT is a reference to Scripture in context with Knowledge and Prophecy in the previous verses that was partial before it.
I never stated it did:
What I did state Is thru Scripture one can be Perfect (lacking in nothing), or (completely supplied). Therefore one doesn't have to wait till Christs return to be Perfect and complete. Paul was Stating in 1 Corienth that there was a lacking, what they only had then was dim visions and immature reasoning and knowledge.
Therefore the QUALITY of their knowledge and Prophecy had changed between 1 Corinthians and 2 Timothy. The Perfect ( Bible) was there and it was there Enough that people had thorough stocking in knowledge and Prophecy.
There is no other way to ignore the fact that THE PERFECT of 1 Cor is a reference to Complete Knowledge and COMPLETE Prophecy. For other Books of scripture are stating there is a completeness in scripture that was not in some of earlier books of the NT.
The Church was not a prediction.
The Bible is a result of the forming of the Gentile Church, were we are to live by Faith not signs and wonders.
So we need a handbook to , to help tech us doctrine, that is the Bible.
It is considered a result of Israel rejecting their King.
This is really simple dispensationist doctrine, why is it you do not know it?
This is the ONLY age that Christ is in every Believer, The Spirit is in EVERY Believer, EVERY Believer is a priest, the Church is the Bride of Christ, Those in the Church are Royalty thru Christ, the very Royalty of heaven it self. This will not be giving to other peoples before and after the church.
James 1
22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror
....
25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.
26 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless.
The Word = The perfect Law that givers freedom..
In this age it is scriptures..Your idea that the scriptures somehow equip, mature, prepare, fit…or whatever descriptor you want to use…people for works of service is not the meaning Paul conveyed to Timothy. The scriptures tell us the Holy Spirit will be put in us (see Ezekiel 36). The NT scriptures tell us the Holy Spirit will guide and teach us. Yes, He can, and does, use the scriptures…but they are NOT His only means of working.
W
The HS uses the scripture to teach, for they Contain the truth and perfection of God.
What else contains the Truth and perfection of God that we should us?
2 Tim 3
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Thru scripture one is totally equipped, complete and lacking in nothing needed in the campaign that is before them.
Paul also states...
2 Tim 2
15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
He really does not beat around the Bush, Doctrinal Study is God approved and has no SHAME.
Nothing else is needed to finish the race that is before us.. no experiences, no Miracles...
All we need is a bible, a Pastor that knows how to teach it and a good study habit.
Those who say more is needed, are adding to scripture.
guest
Which is not what he is stating, He is using a metaphor of looking in a mirror at ones self.. Not another looking at us.
In James the MIRROR is much more clear. For there was a vast improvement in knowledge and Prophecy that it was a lot more clear to the NT Authors.
The personal level he is writing here is a maturity of that which is incomplete.
That being Knowledge and prophecy. In Later books such as James, they see the mirror more sharply,
In 2 timothy Paul sees Knowledge and Prophecy more complete, as able to furnish all that is needed.
Therefore there was a change from the Partial in 1 Corinth to 2 Tim,
That Changes was the Arrival of the more in completeness in Knowledge and Prophecy,
Which is more in Line as to why he would state the Gifts of Prophecy and Knowledge will fade...
1 cor 13
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
There is a link between the Perfect( Complete ) and the partial.
The COMPLETE finishes the partial so that the partial is no longer needed.
There is nothing here that even remotely hints this is a reference to Christ, to state it does takes it grossly out of Context, and ignores the linkage to the partial.
Also this is a IMMATURE congregation babies in spirit if you will.
Paul would not use vague phrases with them, he would not vaguely link to Christs return.
For Christ is not FINISHED when he returns. This is about bringing to a completeness, a maturity of that which is partial..
He was very straight forward with them.
in latter Chapters he very PLAINLY stated Christ, his return and the orders of his return.
The PERFECT -teleios
- brought to its end, finished
- wanting nothing necessary to completeness
- The Completeness of men being...full grown, adult, of full age, mature
This Goes very well with the example Paul used..
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
The PERFECT {complete}, is a reference to Complete Knowledge and Compete prophecy, therefore a reference to doctrine ( Scripture )
2 Chronicles 7:15-16
The question remains...
Not fake, not abused, not imitation, not counterfeit etc.... BUT these three specific gifts still in operation today all over the world by Christians in the Body of Christ... and God being glorified.
Who/how/what is empowering Christians to speak in tongues, words of knowledge, and prophetic words today?
Slug1--out
~Do not quench the Spirit ~ 1 Thessalonians 5:19~
~"So what hardship are you willing to endure, to see My will accomplished through you?"~
~Your relationship isn't knowing "ABOUT" GOD! Relationship is to "KNOW" GOD,
so that in the end and you stand before Him for the first time in heaven… HE KNOWS YOU~
~Do we, as Christians witness Jesus to the lost because we love Jesus? Or do we witness Jesus to the lost because we love them as Jesus loves them?~
~A prompting from God means that you are to DO. Thinking, causes you to... NOT DO!~
~Being on the tall mountain is where "you" go, to meet with God. Being in the deep valley is where "God" goes, to meet with you!~
guest
Actually,
According to scripture They are not in operation today.
Therefore
All instances of these operations must be seen as counterfeit or worse..
Take it or leave it.
Each Must go on their on path, and what they do or believe will be between them and God.
If they have been shown the truth and reject it and press on.
That is now between them and God, they have been warned.
The Same as the People of Israel was warned of 70ad.
Newbie
This is one of the subject that many believer are ignore about.1cor13:9-10 for we know in part and we prophesy in part.
Bt when that which is complete has come,then that which is in part will be done away
This gifts are distributed in part for idification of the church until the complete\whole pefect law of liberty come (Js1:25)
The purpose of this gifts is to confirm the word. (Mark16:20)
Today we have the whole bible(a complete word)
The corinthians are instructed not to forbid to speak in languages 1cor14:39
In order to confirm the word.
But us this generation we hv the complete bible.
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