"Speaking In Tongues" shall cease

[Watchman]

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me.

John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Philippians 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 4:12 Epaphras, who is [one] of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Hebrews 11:4 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Given such a great cloud of witnesses to the uses of teleios, and its deriviatives, how can you possibly pick out one verse, or two, and apply it to mean the Bible? Eisegesis, that’s how. Not one of Paul's uses of teleios references the completed canon of the Bible...not ONE!

Next, you’ve yet to prove that the Corinthians would even have a notion of the Bible. The word, scripture, does not appear in the OT, but refers to it in all but one instance in the NT. The Bible, as we know it, is NOT prophesied in OT scripture, so the Corinthians surely would NOT have understood the perfect to be something that would come nearly 300 years after their collective demise.

Finally, the perfect law of liberty can be construed to be either the law of Moses or the law of Christ. I prefer the latter. The law of Christ is love…period. It has never been the scriptures. Your idea that the scriptures somehow equip, mature, prepare, fit…or whatever descriptor you want to use…people for works of service is not the meaning Paul conveyed to Timothy. The scriptures tell us the Holy Spirit will be put in us (see Ezekiel 36). The NT scriptures tell us the Holy Spirit will guide and teach us. Yes, He can, and does, use the scriptures…but they are NOT His only means of working.

BTW, why did you ignore the overwhelming majority of passages using teleios that differ from your pov? You simply ignored the vast majority of passages that do NOT support you. Why?

They are not in the context of the discussion, so why bother with them?
Now if you wish to post more solid doctrine ( the lessons behind the verses, I may engage)
I really dont partake in jumping to and fro on this verse and that verse like a drunk staggering down the street.

The verses posted above absolutely have bearing on this discussion. Paul is talking to the Corinthians about perfection coming...and Jesus commanded us to be perfect as our Father is perfect. Our purpose and goal is to be perfect. Each of those verses speaks about perfecting of the saints, of the Lord Jesus while on earth, or of people who believe God. Paul is also talking about perfecting, maturing, completing the saints in 1 Corinthians. You simply reject them out of hand without giving a reason, at least, without giving a real reason. One of the major themes in Paul's writing was presenting the saints as teleios.

The context of 1 Corinthians 12-14 is maturity, growth, completion of the saints to the glory of God. In fact, when Paul began his teaching on the gifts of the Spirit, in chapter 12, he compared them to the human body's parts and proper functioning. Why would the parts of the body, and with them their functions, be done away simply because scripture was partially revealed? The body of Christ must still function and nowhere does scripture claim to take the place of the body's workings. In chapter 13, Paul began by showing that loveless use of the gifts is unprofitable, then taught about love, then showed the maturity brought about by love. Children are selfish; mature adults love selflessly. The coming of the perfect coincides with Ephesians chapter 4, wherein Paul stated that the equipping gifts were given to the church UNTIL the body has grown unto Christ's full stature...and the body builds itself up in love. When the gifts are used selflessly, ie for others' benefit, then they are being used in a loving manner and the body grows closer to the Head. There is no drunken reeling and staggering to what I'm saying. It is quite methodical and scriptural.

Watchman

[SuperSonicEvnglst]

Those in Matthew 7 are never was believers..
The Spirit is never given the body of a unbeliever as a temple.

So Judas was not with the disciples when they casted out devils and healed the sick?

[SuperSonicEvnglst]

[QUOTE=Colight;2834623]He is quite solid on scripture being used to Perfectly equip us, In 1 Cor the word was not complete enough to equip us, so they used the Gifts of Prophecy and Knowledge to tide them over until it was..

But you agree that the other gifts are still in operation, except tongues and interpretation, knowledge, prophecy and miracles? James(in which you state the perfect law of liberty is what Paul is referring to in 1 Cor. 13) states to pray for the sick that they might recover. So, you do believe in the gifts of Healing, right?

[Watchman]

From what I understand, even Macarthur doesn't believe 1 Cor. 13 is referring to the "scripture cannon". His commentary reads, "that idea would have been meaningless to the Corinthians. Nowhere in this letter does he mention or allude to such a scriptural completion. The Corinthian believers would have taken Paul's meaning in the plainest and simplest way: as a reference to spiritual and moral perfection…By process of elimination, the only possibility for the perfect is the eternal heavenly state of believers."

I don't agree with bro MacArthur on some things, but he is precisely correct in this case. Paul was speaking of a future time, a future state of the church, and a perfect relationship...one that is face to face. The scriptures don't cause us to know as we are known. Know what? Know who? The scriptures don't cause us to know God. They can help us know ABOUT Him, but only Jesus, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge can reveal our Father to us intimately. What was said in the thread about this topic is true: too much scripture and you dry up--too much Spirit and you blow up--there has to be a balance. If the scriptures are all we need, then why, upon His ascension, did Jesus give gifts to men for the equipping of the saints? These gifts (apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers) were given UNTIL the body, building itself up in love, has reached the full stature of Christ. The church is nowhere near that now, and will need some supernatural help to get there. That is why the scriptures say, He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness, because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth. Things will be so bad in the end, that unless the Lord cuts it short, even the elect will perish. We need the equippers, we need the gifts, too, for they were given for our profit, for our building up, for our encouragement, and exhortation. We need the manifest working and power of the Holy Spirit. We need the scriptures, too...desperately. What we do not need is folks trying to short-change us into believing something God gave as a gift is not good, and is in fact, evil at this present time. What we do not need is folks trying to sell us on working with scripture just as did the Israelites did the law. Read and do has never, and will never, succeed.

blessings,

Watchman

[Watchman]

This was brought up in the other thread, and bears repeating here:

i agree. I also think 1C1310-12 fit very nicely thought wise with 1 John 3:1-2

1 John 3:1-2 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24,49-54 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end (telos-neuter gender), when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death...And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

These passages also fit together nicely, along with 1 Corinthians 13:10-12 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

blessings,

Watchman

[Slug1]

This was brought up in the other thread, and bears repeating here:

1 John 3:1-2 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24,49-54 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end (telos-neuter gender), when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death...And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

These passages also fit together nicely, along with 1 Corinthians 13:10-12 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away. When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

blessings,

Watchman

HOOAH!

The 1 Cor 13:10-12 scripture is clearly divided with the 1 John 3:1-2 in showing us that the perfect is ALL ABOUT Christ, not the Bible.

[Colight]

Thak you, Colight.

Tongues did, and do, in fact, have a meaning. They are for the profit and edification of the church, a sign for unbelievers, and they are for some prayers. All these are found in the passages we've been looking at in 1 Corinthians 13. Yes, the OT stated they were for the Jews, as Paul said, but he also said they are a sign for unbelievers. He was writing to Gentile churches, so the point about Jews is moot. A reason I argue for the continuation of tongues is that they are part of a larger picture. Paul compared the different manifestations to the different functions of different parts of the human body. The purpose of this comparison is to show that the manifestations of the Holy Spirit are as vital to the proper functioning of the body of Christ as are the different parts of the human body vital to its proper functioning.

As for the preterist presumption that AD 70 has significance re: this topic, that will be left unaddressed simply because that is your opinion. Should you wish to discuss preterism, I'm sure some here will be glad to oblige.

Watchman

I am in India and away from my specific notes on the subject to give you the exactness I feel I need to address you on this,
I will have to defer for a few weeks till I return.
Quick things though..


Why do you think prayer in regular language is not as good as a prayer in special language.. since God knows the heart...??
Exactly HOW does tongues edify the church?
I feel the point of Jews has merit, since they was the providers of the Gospel Until Pentecost.

[Colight]

But you agree that the other gifts are still in operation, except tongues and interpretation, knowledge, prophecy and miracles? James(in which you state the perfect law of liberty is what Paul is referring to in 1 Cor. 13) states to pray for the sick that they might recover. So, you do believe in the gifts of Healing, right?

God will heal who he will.


Healing being linked to a man...It Seems healing was more of a Apostle level gift.
And there is example in scripture of where Paul did not heal some of his fellow ministers.
Since there was only 12 Apostles..
I would tend to be skeptical of those who claim they have that gift, but it is not one the I can really go into depth to refute.
( I have not really dug into it, nor personally encountered any who claimed that gift.)

[Colight]

So Judas was not with the disciples when they casted out devils and healed the sick?

What passage are you referring to.. where they did that?

[SuperSonicEvnglst]

God will heal who he will.


Healing being linked to a man...It Seems healing was more of a Apostle level gift.

James said to call for the elders of the Church to anoint the sick.

And there is example in scripture of where Paul did not heal some of his fellow ministers.
Since there was only 12 Apostles..

The man who laid his hands on Paul in Acts was not an Apostle, but Paul received his sight.

[SuperSonicEvnglst]

What passage are you referring to.. where they did that?

Mark 6:7 And He called the twelve to Himself, and began to send them out two by two, and gave them power over unclean spirits. So they went out and preached that people should repent. And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many who were sick, and healed them” (Mark 6:12-13). Matt. 10:1 adds “ …and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.”

[Slug1]

Healing being linked to a man...It Seems healing was more of a Apostle level gift.

Philip, Timothy, Ananias, ALL the 72 who went out to spread the message that the Kingdom is at hand, ANY elders who God has anointed for leadership in churches... NONE of them are Apostles.

Yet God moves through them and heals others.

Miracles are NOT limited to ONLY the Apostles... miracles are limited to ONLY God and He'll use anyone in submission to Him and to allowing of the Holy Spirit to move in them and provide the empowerment to do God's will.

Miracles are NOT limited to position nor title in any church.

Miracles are LIMITED by faith, belief, and submission to God's will and the prompting of and empowerment of, the Holy Spirit.

[SuperSonicEvnglst]

I think we got off topic...

Colight, are you from India?

[Watchman]

I am in India and away from my specific notes on the subject to give you the exactness I feel I need to address you on this,
I will have to defer for a few weeks till I return.

Fair enough...will wait to hear from you. Safe travels!

Quick things though..

Why do you think prayer in regular language is not as good as a prayer in special language.. since God knows the heart...??
Exactly HOW does tongues edify the church?
I feel the point of Jews has merit, since they was the providers of the Gospel Until Pentecost.

I don't think that prayer language is better...didn't say that. I will posit a guess that prayer language is for those times when one is crying out to the Lord and runs out of words. The Spirit is there to help us in these prayers. We are not told how tongued edify the church, rather, we are told that they do edify. How mattereth not when God says this is the way it is.

W

[SuperSonicEvnglst]

Fair enough...will wait to hear from you. Safe travels!



I don't think that prayer language is better...didn't say that. I will posit a guess that prayer language is for those times when one is crying out to the Lord and runs out of words. The Spirit is there to help us in these prayers. We are not told how tongued edify the church, rather, we are told that they do edify. How mattereth not when God says this is the way it is.

W

Also Romans 8 says we don't know how to pray as we ought