I am a CHRISTIAN (and no longer a sinner) saved by grace

**jangar** · Dec 1st 2008, 11:54 PM

King James Version (KJV) 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

Romans 6:6

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

A lot of times, Christians claim to be sinners saved by grace. There is no such thing. When you got saved, according to the above verses, you were no longer a sinner. When you are saying you are a sinner saved by grace, you are claiming that you are both saved and still a sinner. It's not both. It's one or the other. Saying you are a sinnner saved by grace is like saying you have dirty hands washed with soap. Your hands can not be both dirty and washed with soap. I am absolutely not a sinner saved by grace. I am a Christian saved by grace.

ROMANS 5:8
But God commended His love toward us, in that, while we WERE yet sinners, Christ died for us.

The verse says "while WERE yet sinners...". If we are sinners saved by grace it would say "while we ARE yet sinners...".

Jangar

***Kahtar*** · Dec 1st 2008, 11:57 PM

Okay, but do you ever sin, now that you are saved?

**jangar** · Dec 2nd 2008, 12:14 AM

Let me start by saying that I do NOT believe in the "we all must sin everyday" nonsence. Second let me state that sin is always deliberate. I do not believ in accidently sinning. However I do believe in ignorant sin*. Thirdly, I am not perfect. I make mistakes like you do. When I do, I ask God to forgive me.

*ignorant sin is when you do something on purpose and do not realize that it is a sin. When I do not know for sure whether something is a sin or not, I won't do it.

A sinner is someone who is ruled by their sin nature. All sinners are unsaved.

A Christian is someone who has accepted Jesus and lives like it.

Jangar

Partaker of Christ · Dec 2nd 2008, 12:15 AM

God sees the end from the beginning: Our Position before God is one of overcomer, but our subjective experience is that of overcoming.
In Christ we have complete Victory, but in our experience we still suffer occasional defeats.
Satan has been defeated, but he is still being defeated.

Are you without spot or stain?

Has the mortal put on immortal?

Has the corrupt put on incorruptibility?

Does the flesh not still war against the Spirit?

**Amos_with_goats** · Dec 2nd 2008, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by jangar

King James Version (KJV) 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

Romans 6:6

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

A lot of times, Christians claim to be sinners saved by grace. There is no such thing. When you got saved, according to the above verses, you were no longer a sinner. When you are saying you are a sinner saved by grace, you are claiming that you are both saved and still a sinner. It's not both. It's one or the other. Saying you are a sinnner saved by grace is like saying you have dirty hands washed with soap. Your hands can not be both dirty and washed with soap. I am absolutely not a sinner saved by grace. I am a Christian saved by grace.

ROMANS 5:8
But God commended His love toward us, in that, while we WERE yet sinners, Christ died for us.

The verse says "while WERE yet sinners...". If we are sinners saved by grace it would say "while we ARE yet sinners...".

Jangar

I have had this discussion before, with others who said as you had.

We need not sin, but we still do. Our flesh still wars against the spirit. We have been freed from sin, we now have the option to obey. We are no longer powerless to resist, but sadly we do not always.... which is why we need grace.

1 John 1:8-10

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Apparently Paul did not believe that he was no longer a sinner*;

Romans 7:14-25 (bold added)

For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

*Sinner: 1.) One who sins.....

***mikebr*** · Dec 2nd 2008, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by jangar

Let me start by saying that I do NOT believe in the "we all must sin everyday" nonsence. Second let me state that sin is always deliberate. I do not believ in accidently sinning. However I do believe in ignorant sin*. Thirdly, I am not perfect. I make mistakes like you do. When I do, I ask God to forgive me.

*ignorant sin is when you do something on purpose and do not realize that it is a sin. When I do not know for sure whether something is a sin or not, I won't do it.

A sinner is someone who is ruled by their sin nature. All sinners are unsaved.

A Christian is someone who has accepted Jesus and lives like it.

Jangar

How old are you? You don't sound like you've lived long enough. I actually agree with your OP title. I am a saint who just don't know it yet.

**jangar** · Dec 2nd 2008, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by Partaker of Christ

God sees the end from the beginning: Our Position before God is one of overcomer, but our subjective experience is that of overcoming.
In Christ we have complete Victory, but in our experience we still suffer occasional defeats.
Satan has been defeated, but he is still being defeated.

Are you without spot or stain?

JANGAR: YES. Everytime I ask Christ to forgive me, He does it right then and there and the spot is removed.

Has the mortal put on immortal?

JANGAR: Not until the rapture of the church (1 Thess. 4:13-18, 1 Corinth. 15:57). That is why I continually have to ask forgiveness.

Has the corrupt put on incorruptibility? Same as previous question

JANGAR: Does the flesh not still war against the Spirit?
Yes, but the Spirit is more powerful. Because I am rooted and grounded in the Bible and prayer, the Spirit has control.

I hope that this answers your question. Jangar

Jangar

**jangar** · Dec 2nd 2008, 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by mikebr

How old are you? You don't sound like you've lived long enough. I actually agree with your OP title. I am a saint who just don't know it yet.

In my thirties. I have ben saved for 21 years.

Jangar

***mikebr*** · Dec 2nd 2008, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by jangar

In my thirties. I have ben saved for 21 years.

Jangar

At what point did you reach the place where you no longer committed known sins?

Is there anything that you don't like about yourself? Bad habits?

Partaker of Christ · Dec 2nd 2008, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by jangar

JANGAR: Does the flesh not still war against the Spirit?
Yes, but the Spirit is more powerful. Because I am rooted and grounded in the Bible and prayer, the Spirit has control.Jangar

So when you do sin, it is the Spirit that makes you sin?

**Amos_with_goats** · Dec 2nd 2008, 12:48 AM

On the Other Hand,

While I am still constrained to this temporal realm, and still struggle with my flesh and my my sin nature, this is a temporary condition. Thank You Lord!

1 John 3:2 (King James Version)

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

***mikebr*** · Dec 2nd 2008, 12:50 AM

Although I don't believe we will ever reach a state of sinlessness I do believe we can live with no guilt or condemnation.

***VerticalReality*** · Dec 2nd 2008, 02:00 PM

I agree with the OP. My identity before God is no longer found in this "sinner saved by grace" mentality. My Lord no longer sees me as a sinner. He sees me for the new spiritual creation that I am. He sees me by the imputed righteousness that now dwells with me. I stand before God right now as though I have never committed a single sin. Why? Because my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ never committed one single sin. When Jesus died on that cross He died for every single sin that I would ever commit. He died for the sins that I committed ten years ago, and He died for the sins that I will commit ten years from now. Thankfully, I do not have to identify myself with those sins that have yet to be committed. To identify myself with those sins is to say that the blood of Jesus has not cleansed me of those, and I must again make sacrifice for those uncovered transgressions. However, Jesus made one sacrifice that was good for all. Now that old man is crucified with Him, and I'm no longer bound to the bondage of sin.

Ironically, those who hold to the defeatist theology of "sinners saved by grace" are the ones who have the most difficulty overcoming sin. Perhaps if we would begin to see ourselves as God sees us then we would begin to experience more fruit of this spiritual reality. God does not see us in the flesh. He relates to us based upon our spirit. In our spirit we have never sinned, and that which is born of God cannot sin. Our spirit is absolutely perfect and without flaw of any sort. This is how God deals with us. The sinner cannot say the same thing. The sinner is dead in sin, and God cannot relate to the sinner in the same fashion.

Therefore, I am a saint . . . not a sinner.

**jangar** · Dec 29th 2008, 08:46 PM

Thank you Vertical reality. You said what i was trying to convey.

I apologize for not being able to be on the forums. With Christmas and uncertain weather, I had not been able to get to the library. Plus my dad passed away on 12/10/08. Please keep my family in your prayers.

Thanks, Jangar

***VerticalReality*** · Dec 29th 2008, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by jangar

Thank you Vertical reality. You said what i was trying to convey.

I apologize for not being able to be on the forums. With Christmas and uncertain weather, I had not been able to get to the library. Plus my dad passed away on 12/10/08. Please keep my family in your prayers.

Thanks, Jangar

My sympathies for the loss of your father. May the Lord bless you and keep you in this time of trial.