Circumcision

[watchinginawe]

I am just starting a thread in here regarding a comment of mine and a response in the Christians Answer forum.

We are Christians because we are Christ's (He is our Lord and Saviour), we are in and dwell together in Christ Jesus. In Christ there is a new identity that is Spiritually given and doesn't have to do with customs and traditions of the Jews like circumcision, etc. Jesus does not proselyte us into the Jewish religion. Instead, Jesus calls all men unto Him to born us into a Spiritual lineage.

Circumcision is not simply a Jewish custom, it is the word of God.

My comment is regarding whether we should become and referred to as Jews as a follower of Christ. I do not believe we should, though if we thought so we would certainly contemplate being circumcised. Circumcision is a very controversial topic in the New Testament of those who would "become Jews" by conversion. For example, Paul offers:

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

We are not called into circumcision. Being circumcised would be calling us into salvation by custom and tradition (works) and not by faith. Paul says that we yoke ourselves to the law in so doing. We also know Paul says that the law does not make us righteous. Therefore, our identity in Christ does not exist in circumcision and Paul goes so far as to say that by doing so causes one to "fall from grace". Their trust is misplaced and their justification comes from somewhere else than Christ.

That is my point regarding circumcision.

Thoughts?

God Bless!

[Walstib]

I can see someone saying it is within the Bible and not just a custom from the words posted. That I can understand and would agree with.

With only the one snip it is hard to know exactly the context.

If the context was that it is required of males before they can receive the Holy Spirit I would say it does not fit at all.

First of my thoughts,
Joe

[songladyjenn]

All 3 of my boys were circumsized before we left the hospital. (the day after they were born)

Today, at least here where I live, it is for medical/health reasons and has nothing to do with traditions of any kind.

You don't have to be circumsized to be saved or a child of the King.

[Kahtar]

Obviously the act of getting circumcized is not really the issue, for many today are circumcized, as was pointed out, for health reasons.
The real issue, the one Paul was speaking of, is a matter of the heart.
If you go and get circumcized to 'become a Jew', or to 'follow the law' as written in God's Word, then you are attempting to make yourself righteous through works, instead of through faith in Christ.
In other words, you are trusting in works and law and 'becoming a Jew' for salvation instead of trusting in Christ for salvation.
Paul's whole arguement is about who or what you are trusting in, not about the act itself. The act itself profits nothing. In other words, circumcision is neither 'here nor there' as regards salvation. Same applies to the sabbath and a number of other things. In fact, the same applies to all the law.
I would submit, however, that obedience to God's Word and salvation are separate issues. Salvation has nothing to do with obedience to the law.

[Vhayes]

I think I understand what you are saying, Watchinginawe - I would say it isn't so much a justification in something other than Christ as it is growth and maturity in something other than Christ. As you said, I think it is a "fall from grace", an attempt to "work" to stay saved by our own merits or to be pleasing to God because of what we do, if that makes sense.

Colossians 2

6 - Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him

[HisLeast]

My parents never had me circumcised.

If I have this procedure done soon, will I finally be saved? I mean really really saved this time. (and by really I mean truly)

[SIG]

Walstib (in post #2): "With only the one snip it is hard to know exactly the context."

Ouch!

[Sirus]

It was a type and shadow of a circumcision to come. One that is required. It's not one we accomplish in any way other that by faith in our death with Christ were our useless flesh is cut away and discarded.

we walk by faith because that is how we receive him.
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
............
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Have you been circumcised? Then, by faith, (Col 3:3) ye are dead to the world the flesh and the devil....are free, and do not have to sin. That is the perfection we have and rule we walk by.

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Phi 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Phi 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example.
Phi 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

[watchinginawe]

Thanks for the comments so far. As has been pointed out, I wasn't really referring to the elective surgical act of circumcision that may be practiced for various medical reasons.

I really don't have a problem with Emanate's comment except that it couldn't be discussed in the Christians Answer forum. Circumcision is of course commanded in the OT, but if one who places their faith in Jesus Christ also looks to circumcision for salvation, then that is practicing tradition at it's worst. Now this was a problem with the early Church and was the main topic of the Jerusalem Council.

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

So the concept of the necessity of circumcision was not a foreign one regarding faith but rather one that had been brought into question and decided conclusively.

Circumcision is used in scripture in some places interchangeably with Jew. Jew/Circumcision and Gentile/Uncircumcision. What the "Judaizers" were teaching was proselytization into the Jewish religion "after the manner of Moses". This practice was soundly rejected.

God Bless!

[watchinginawe]

Walstib (in post #2): "With only the one snip it is hard to know exactly the context."

Ouch!

Good one!

[kenrank]

If you go and get circumcized to 'become a Jew', or to 'follow the law' as written in God's Word, then you are attempting to make yourself righteous through works, instead of through faith in Christ.
In other words, you are trusting in works and law and 'becoming a Jew' for salvation instead of trusting in Christ for salvation. Salvation has nothing to do with obedience to the law.

Shaul (Paul) covered this issue in Acts 15. The dispute wasn't whether or not one should be circumcised, it was whether of not circumcision was necessary for salvation, which of course it isn't. But one of the modern unknowns is that a person who is uncircumcised did not break the Law, their father would have. The command was given to a father to circumcise his son on the 8th day. (The 8th day coincidentally (?) is when the vitamin K levels, the blood clotting agent, is at it's highest levels) The son, the baby, was not commanded to circumcise himself. So there were two issues in Acts 15. The first, circumcision in the flesh was not needed for salvation...but that was based on the fact that no grown man who was not circumcised had broken any command.

Kahtar...Messiah said that only those who are obediant to the commandents will inherit the tree of life. He also said that anyone who does the law and teaches others the same will be called the greatest in the Kingdom of God....while those who don't do the law and teach against it will be called the least in the Kingdom. Shaul practiced Torah AFTER meeting Messiah on Damascus road. He understood it didn't save, but he also knew that God has expectations of His people. Without Law, we walk in lawlessness.

I believe we come in faith and are saved by grace....but once we belong to God, there is a social code of conduct he expects us to follow. We keep Torah, Sabbath, the Feasts...but I don't count it as righteousness unto myself. I don't believe it saves me...and I don't trust it over Messiah. We honor these "everlasting" commands because they are, well, everlasting. And seeing God changes not...I see no reason to think that which was called everlasting only lasted 4000 years.

But, that's my view. I judge you not for how you practice and worship. We are each called to work out our own salvation.

Peace.
Ken

[Kahtar]

Thank you Ken,
Interestingly, we are in complete agreement, though you seem to be 'disagreeing' with me in your post.
Interesting point about the son not being guilty. I hadn't picked up on that before. Yet, at some point, he would still need to do it I think.

[Walstib]

But one of the modern unknowns is that a person who is uncircumcised did not break the Law, their father would have..........but that was based on the fact that no grown man who was not circumcised had broken any command.

HI Ken,

I would be curious as you where you get this. I mean.. what if the kid's father died before they were born. Then the kid can be left uncircumcised because it was only the father's responsibility?

Even a stranger in the land who wanted to share in the passover was asked to circumcise his every male in his family regardless their age. Exo 12:48. And of course to keep the law one is required at all the feasts.... You get where I could go from here.

To believe that Paul was arguing about circumcising children is, I believe, a huge understatement of the struggle against the Judaizers that Whatchinginawe has brought up in this post and that continues to this day.

Peace,
Joe

[Walstib]

Walstib (in post #2): "With only the one snip it is hard to know exactly the context."

Ouch!

I just got that.....good one indeed! Still laughing.

Before I was trying to think of something like "the tone of the post may come across a little bris k "

... hmmm.. maybe funnier when I don't try...

[legoman]

We don't need to be physically circumcised to be saved.

We do need to be spiritually circumcised to be saved.

Romans 3:28 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Matthew 18:8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

Just like we don't physically cut off our hand or foot when we sin, we don't need to be physically circumsized.

However, we do need to spiritually cut off our hand or foot if it causes us to sin. What does this mean? It is talking about spiritual circumcision - spiritually cutting out the bad parts of our heart that cause us to sin. Does our hand or foot or eye cause us to sin? No, sin originates from the heart.

The carnal nature must be cut from the heart. This must be done and it will be done by the grace of God.

Cheers,
Legoman