The Angel of the Lord Takes away Sins?

[mdo757]

Zechariah 3

Clean Garments for the High Priest

1 Then he showed me Joshua [a] the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan [b] standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?"
3 Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. 4 The angel said to those who were standing before him, "Take off his filthy clothes."
Then he said to Joshua, "See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put rich garments on you." Is it possible for the Angel of The Lord to be Jesus.

[RogerW]

Zechariah 3

Clean Garments for the High Priest

1 Then he showed me Joshua [a] the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan [b] standing at his right side to accuse him. 2 The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?"
3 Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. 4 The angel said to those who were standing before him, "Take off his filthy clothes."
Then he said to Joshua, "See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put rich garments on you." Is it possible for the Angel of The Lord to be Jesus.

I believe the angel/messenger of the Lord is Christ. I also believe that Michael (Rev 12:7) is Christ.

Many Blessings,
RW

[Lamplighter]

I also believe that Michael (Rev 12:7) is Christ.

Many Blessings,
RW

Here it is in the Greek, just for a little more thought.

Μιχαήλ



Michaēl

Pronunciation

mē-khä-ā'l





Outline of Biblical Usage


Michael = "who is like God"
1) the first of the chief princes or archangels who is supposed to be the guardian angel of the Israelites

[RogerW]

Here it is in the Greek, just for a little more thought.

Μιχαήλ

Michaēl

Pronunciation

mē-khä-ā'l

Outline of Biblical Usage

Michael = "who is like God"
1) the first of the chief princes or archangels who is supposed to be the guardian angel of the Israelites

Look at Michael from the OT Hebrew.

Miyka'el - from 4310 and (the prefix derivative from) 3588 and 410; who (is) like God?; Mikael, the name of an archangel and of nine Israelites:--Michael.

410 - 'el - shortened from 352; strength; as adjective, mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity):--God (god), X goodly, X great, idol, might(-y one), power, strong.

Da 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Da 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Da 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Michael - of Hebrew origin (4317); Michael, an archangel:--Michael.

4317. Miyka'el - from 4310 and (the prefix derivative from) 3588 and 410; who (is) like God?; Mikael, the name of an archangel and of nine Israelites:--Michael.

I don't think there is any doubt that Dan 12:1 is speaking of Christ. What about Michael in Jude? Michael the chief messenger contending with the devil...can this be anyone other than Christ? And in Rev 12, Michael and His messengers fighting against the dragon and his messengers. Can this be anyone other than Christ, Who cast the great dragon, called Satan out of heaven into the earth?

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Re 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Re 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Many Blessings,
RW

[mdo757]

According to the following scripture it is impossible for Michael to be Jesus.


Revelation 12:7-11

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels (messengers) fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels (messengers) fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven (in Genesis God calls the earth heaven) any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels (messengers) were cast out with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

So how did Michael and his angels overcome Satan?

by the Blood of the Lamb, and the word of their testimony

So if Michael and his messengers overcame the devil by the blood of the LAMB, how is he the Lamb?

[mdo757]

This study is done from the N.I.V Exhaustive Concordance.

The two words of this study are, (PRINCE-S) and LEADER-S-ING).

Now the Hebrew word (NASIY). Ref # 5954 is used 39 times for the word (PRINCE-S).
And the Hebrew word (SAR). Ref # 8569 is used 51 times for the word (PRINCE-S).

As you can see NASIY and SAR are very different words. Also the word NASIY is used a total of 131 times: And the word SAR is used a total of 421 times; 78 times as officials, 110 times as commander-s and 32 times as officer-s. And 40 times as Leader-s-ing. The correct translation for Daniel 12:1 is “leader.”
The other alternate Hebrew words for PRINCE are these.
5592. NAGIYD (PRINCE) 3 times. / 5618. NADIYB (PRINCE-S) 6 times. / 5687. NAZIYR (PRINCE-S) 3 times. / 5817. NASIYK (PRINCE-S). 3 times.
You should take notice that they all began with the letters " N A ".
In Daniel 11:22 the word PRINCE is #5592 NAGIYD. In our different bible, interpretations are often given in place of translations.
It's something to think about.

[Biastai]

"In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. And they were calling to one another:
"Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glory."

At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.
"Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty." Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. With it he touched my mouth and said, "See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for."
Isaiah 6:1-7, an unnamed seraph takes away Isaiah's sin

This is another passage describing the atoning act of an angel. Unless this is also Jesus, atonement can be granted by angels and of course directly from the Lord who never despises a contrite heart.

[9Marksfan]

"In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. And they were calling to one another:
"Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glory."

At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.
"Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty." Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. With it he touched my mouth and said, "See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for."
Isaiah 6:1-7, an unnamed seraph takes away Isaiah's sin

No - it was the burning coal that took away the sin - this prefigures the sacrifice of Christ, who absorbed the fire of God's wrath when He was made sin for us - thr seraph no more takes away sin than the Spirit does whn He applies the truth of Christ's death to our hearts. But no one is going to say that the Holy Spirit makes atonement, are they?!?

This is another passage describing the atoning act of an angel.

No.

Unless this is also Jesus, atonement can be granted by angels and of course directly from the Lord who never despises a contrite heart.

Atonement is never in response to a contrite heart - if that were the case, we could earn it by contrition! And that's works, not grace.

[mdo757]

"In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. And they were calling to one another:
"Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glory."

At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.
"Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty." Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. With it he touched my mouth and said, "See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for."
Isaiah 6:1-7, an unnamed seraph takes away Isaiah's sin

This is another passage describing the atoning act of an angel. Unless this is also Jesus, atonement can be granted by angels and of course directly from the Lord who never despises a contrite heart.

Although that is a logical conclusion, I still have to say not correct. Different words that represent "judgement" are fire, coal, and lighting. Although there is such a thing as being vulgar or pronouncing a curse, there is no such thing as cussing. Cussing is a wives tale. Example: John Krapper was an Englishman that invented the toilet. So C-Krapper or crap in reality is only the shortening of his name. And the same is true of all of the other words called cuss words. So therefore the coal "judgement" was a foregone conclusion, and not an act of forgiveness by that messenger.

[Lamplighter]

No.



Atonement is never in response to a contrite heart - if that were the case, we could earn it by contrition! And that's works, not grace.

Great answers. Jesus is not Michael or Melchizedek king of Salem(Jerusalem).

[RANGER65]

The Godhead is omnipresent. Right? What if an angel was equivolent to an atom? We know that this is the original architecture of Jesus who created everything. He made this world and this world is comprised of atoms with a neutron spinning around a proton (or vise versa) which eve way it defies the lawsof physics they should actually repel one another so it is the power of Christ that holds this whole world together. Upon he (Jesus) removing his power from the atom the eath will literally burst into flames. I hate to break it to everyone who believes the Lord needs a nuclear confrontatation to melt the Earth he doesn't, he has his own atomic weapon to produce an instantaineous themo-nuclear melt down.

OK back to the Angel of the Lord in Judges 6 :14-16 and 6:22-26 it is clear that the angel is on of the Godhead and he basically calls the angel Jehova in the name of the alter (which is debatable I know).

If their are regular angels and angels of the Godhead they may be able to exact the will of the Lord themselves. Angels may be an intracit element of the Godhead that gives them te power to be everywhere at all times. I will find out when I get there, I am sure it will be impressive, epecially the fileing system.

[Kahtar]

According to the following scripture it is impossible for Michael to be Jesus.


Revelation 12:7-11

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels (messengers) fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels (messengers) fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven (in Genesis God calls the earth heaven) any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels (messengers) were cast out with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

So how did Michael and his angels overcome Satan?

by the Blood of the Lamb, and the word of their testimony

So if Michael and his messengers overcame the devil by the blood of the LAMB, how is he the Lamb?

I'm not going to argue your point about Michael not being Jesus. I agree with that.
But I would just point out that the 'they' in verse eleven is not referring to Michael and his messengers, but rather 'our brethren'. If Michael and his messengers are spiritual beings, then how can they 'not love their lives to the death'? But the 'brethren' certainly can, and it is the brethren who overcome the wiles of the enemy by the word of their (brethren) testimony, and by not loving their lives to the death.

[RogerW]

This study is done from the N.I.V Exhaustive Concordance.

The two words of this study are, (PRINCE-S) and LEADER-S-ING).

Now the Hebrew word (NASIY). Ref # 5954 is used 39 times for the word (PRINCE-S).
And the Hebrew word (SAR). Ref # 8569 is used 51 times for the word (PRINCE-S).

As you can see NASIY and SAR are very different words. Also the word NASIY is used a total of 131 times: And the word SAR is used a total of 421 times; 78 times as officials, 110 times as commander-s and 32 times as officer-s. And 40 times as Leader-s-ing. The correct translation for Daniel 12:1 is “leader.”
The other alternate Hebrew words for PRINCE are these.
5592. NAGIYD (PRINCE) 3 times. / 5618. NADIYB (PRINCE-S) 6 times. / 5687. NAZIYR (PRINCE-S) 3 times. / 5817. NASIYK (PRINCE-S). 3 times.
You should take notice that they all began with the letters " N A ".
In Daniel 11:22 the word PRINCE is #5592 NAGIYD. In our different bible, interpretations are often given in place of translations.
It's something to think about.

I have found many discrepancies in modern concordances when compared with early editions of the Strongs linked to KJV. As a result I have lost almost all confidence in modern translations of Scripture as well as modern concordances. Is there any difference with the Hebrew translation of prince and princes? Lets look at two verses from the OT.

Da 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Prince/princes - sar - from 8323; a head person (of any rank or class):--captain (that had rule), chief (captain), general, governor, keeper, lord, ((-task- ))master, prince(-ipal), ruler, steward.

8323 sarar - a primitive root; to have (transitively, exercise; reflexively, get) dominion:--X altogether, make self a prince, (bear) rule.

From this can we conclude that "Prince" is a head or chief who exercises dominion? Since this is the Prince of princes, can we conclude this is the cheif Messenger? Could this be reference to Christ as "the Prince" Who shall break Satan (lesser prince) without hand?

Da 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Could Michael, one of the chief princes be a reference to Christ as one in the Trinity?

The Lord is the archangel or chief messenger.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

The dead in the graves hear the voice of the Lord, not the voice of the archangel, but the voice of the Lord. Does this prove that the Lord is the archangel/chief messenger?

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This is the Glory of God which shall come, this is the voice of the Chief messenger, the archangel, the Lord God himself. Does this show us that when the trumpet shall sound, and Christ comes with this voice of the chief messenger, all shall have been fulfilled?

Ex 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
Ex 19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
Ex 19:18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

There is no angel which has the power to contend with Satan. Satan is ruler of this world, the strong one who held the world in bondage with a heavy hand. The only Messenger who could contend with him and ransome them from his hand is Christ! It is Christ who bound the strong man; i.e. Satan, so his house (the world) could be plundered or saved (Mt. 12:29; Mr 27). Christ is the one who contended with the Devil about the body of Moses.

The "body of Moses" symbolizes the body of the law under which the congregation was burdened, and which "only" Christ could be the help. Under the New Covenant in Christ, we are no longer burdened for Christ keeps the law for us perfectly, that we no longer sit condemned under. When God speaks of the scriptures, He often uses the phrase or term, "Moses and the Prophets" or "the law of Moses" or the "commandments of Moses". Of course we know that it's not Moses' law or his commands, it's God's law. But God uses these terms as a synonym for the law of God under which we sit condemned under the Old Testament (the body of Moses).

Jude 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

A few examples from a commentary "Is Jesus the Archangel Michael"?
The full commentary may be viewed here: http://mountainretreatorg.net/bible/michael.html


1st Corinthians 9:9

• "For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?"

This language is a synonym for the law of God, the scriptures. For Moses was the Old Testament "type" of Christ, and his body would be the Congregation under law, made like unto Christ as a "shadow" of things to come. We can see this as it speaks of the "angel of God" on the mountain.

Acts 7:37-38

• "This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
• This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: "

Again, Christ, the angel or messenger which spake to Moses on the Mountain. And He who God raised up like unto Moses, is Christ, the fulfilment of the "type". Him shall the people hear! Moses, and the law of Moses, is being pictured as the word or the law of God which man is under. But it is only in Christ that we can keep the law and will hear Him! Not in the body of Moses (the law) but in the body of Christ (Grace, or not under law).

2nd Corinthians 3:15

• "But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart".

God uses the language "when Moses is read" to signify the law or the Word. Even when Jesus told the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man in Hell, when the Rich man said he wanted to go back to warn his brethren about the horrors of Hell, it was said to him, "they have Moses and the prophets (the law of the scriptures), let them hear it". But the rich man protested still that they needed more and would believe if one rose from the dead to tell them. To which the Lord put forth the illustration..

Luke 16:31

• "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead".

God again is signifying here that if one won't listen to the law, they won't listen to Christ who rose from the dead. That's the Spiritual truth put forth here. And God is using Moses as this synonym for the law of God. Before Jesus was Crucified, we see Moses and Elijah come to him (again, a picture of the WITNESS of the law and the prophets). Revelation chapter 11, again the two witnesses, a picture that the Church bringing the witness of the law and the prophets. These are all spiritual significations. But Christ came to fulfill the law that the Body of Moses, (God's people under law) could be set free from the law. As Christ said,

Matthew 5:17

• "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil".

The law of Moses stands, it's just that it is fulfilled or in other words, kept fully in Christ. In that sense, the law has ended for God's people. That is the dispute of the Devil with Michael! Satan uses the law to accuse us (for we are all transgressors of the law), but Christ foiled his plans.

Romans 10:4-5

• "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth".
• For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them".

The Body of Moses is the law which the Old Testament saints couldn't keep anymore than we can. Satan accuses them (and us) by the law. Christ opened not His mouth (as a lamb is dumb before the slaughter) as He went to the cross because He stood laden with our sins, being our help, and was therefore guilty in the real sense. As Isaiah 53 says, God saw the travail of His soul and was satisfied with the payment. He paid the price for us, and delivered the body of Moses from death! We are now free from the condemnation of the law.

In Jude 9 when Michael (who assuredly is God the ruling Messenger) contends with the devil, He disputed about the body of Moses because it was war. Christ went forth conquering and he by the Power of God cast Satan (the great accuser) out and spoiled his kingdom of us. He set us Free! And God says, if this be true, then the Kingdom of God had come. Michael did cast out satan by the power of God, and so the kingdom of God "had" come. Israel had been delivered. Satan had nothing to accuse us with the law anymore.

Matthew 12:26-29

• "And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
• And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
• But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
• Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house".

This is the dispute with Satan about the body of the law. He went to the cross willingly and opened not His mouth. He didn't bring against him a railing accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke thee." ..why? Because He was guilty, numbered with the transgressors for us. Laden with our sins He willingly went to the cross to atone for the transgressions of the law which we have broken. He couldn't say, "wrong Satan, the law doesn't condemn", because it did. Rather than accuse as Satan does, He assigned Satan's judgment (for every unrighteous thought is judged) unto the father, and went as a lamb to the slaughter to pay the price for the sin that He had become, for us.

Many Blessings,
RW

[Biastai]

[/i]

No - it was the burning coal that took away the sin - this prefigures the sacrifice of Christ, who absorbed the fire of God's wrath when He was made sin for us - thr seraph no more takes away sin than the Spirit does whn He applies the truth of Christ's death to our hearts. But no one is going to say that the Holy Spirit makes atonement, are they?!?


Atonement is never in response to a contrite heart - if that were the case, we could earn it by contrition! And that's works, not grace.

The coal took away the sin? And this coal signifies Christ? That allegory would make even Augustine blush a little.

Apparently a contrite heart is involved in atonement. The contrite heart itself doesn't earn it, and I apologize if I caused to understand that was what I meant. This is still wholly dependent on God's mercy. It is unmerited by the penitent as is the gift given through Christ.

"Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.

Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.
For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you are proved right when you speak
and justified when you judge.
Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
Surely you desire truth in the inner parts ;
you teach me wisdom in the inmost place.
Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones you have crushed rejoice.
Hide your face from my sins
and blot out all my iniquity.
Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.
Then I will teach transgressors your ways,
and sinners will turn back to you.
Save me from bloodguilt, O God,
the God who saves me,
and my tongue will sing of your righteousness.
O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare your praise.
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart,
O God, you will not despise."
Psalm 51:1-17 (NIV)

[mdo757]

Jude 1:9 is a Gnostic corruption of scripture.