Sinless perfection in this life

[reformedct]

yuker,
i see you have said that "taken out of context" means "i dont wanna change my mind"

this is false. there are situations in which people do in fact take things out of context. it happens when someone assumes they understand the meaning of a text just by reading it on the surface level, isolated from the rest of scripture

in a sense, you are choosing to hold on to the assumption that this one section of scripture "he cannot commit sin" , means that a Christian can never submit themselves to sin

i would have to say that maybe you yourself are the one who chooses not to ponder whether your interpretaion is flawed

1st john also says that whoever believes Jesus is the Christ is born of God, however this doesnt mean that everyone who says a quick prayer and "believes" is born again. there is more than just what is on the surface. we must interpret scripture with scripture

yes there is a sense in which a christian cannot commit sin, justa as there is a sense in which we should pluck out our eye if it causes us to sin, but we must interpret scripture with scripture. your interpretation cannot reject other scriptures and concepts taught in the bible.

i dont think your interpretation is way off but it seems perhaps slightly off

[Walstib]

Yuke,

About the flesh doing the sinning. Who tells the flesh what to do? And if you can sin not only in deed but in thought, "who" is doing the thought sin?

The way I see this aspect is that I have been given the authority and ability to at all times keep the flesh from sinning. Each time I keep the flesh from sinning by enduring temptation I honor God and I think in a way I use less of my Savior's precious blood. Letting the flesh influence me to the point I miss the mark of perfection, I see is like spitting in Jesus' face and twisting the spear in His side. He may still love us through it, but I guess I see it like holding the whip and striking Jesus with it every time I follow the desires of the flesh instead of the desires of the Spirit. Me, I do the deciding, not God, not my spirit and not my flesh. I think. EDIT: My conscience tells me I still miss the mark, thank You Father for Jesus!

God may decide not to write down our sin against our account, and there can be much joy and peace in this. Then I don't think there is any honor in, or justification for deciding to follow the desires of the flesh.

Peace,
Joe

[ProjectPeter]

Not sure how you do see that.

Christ's death has abolished the law for those who are born again. Christ's death made it impossible for those who are born again to sin.

How is that saying Jesus Christ died so that we could all (are able to)continue in sin?

I am confirming the exact opposite.

Jesus Christ died so that we cannot (are unable to) continue in sin.

As Paul said, we died to sin, how can we live in it any longer? Answer is, we cannot.

What law did it abolish?

[ProjectPeter]

yes this is why Paul CONSTANTLY told the churches

DONT submit yourselves to sin

DONT let sin reign in your body

DONT use your members as instruments of unrighteousness

DONT you know that you are the temple of the Holy Spirit

if christians cannot submit to sin he would not say these,

however, notice how all the issues of sin are in the flesh. the spirit of the believer does not sin. that is why the spirit is at odds with the flesh. However the Christian can choose to submit even though he has power over sin. The spirit does not sin, but the Christian gives his members as instruments of unrighteousness.

It would benefit folks to really understand what Paul is saying in Romans 8.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so;
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.
12 ¶So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh --
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

This idea that we can still live by the flesh and yet our spirits are still all good... just doesn't work well Scripturally.

[Yukerboy]

Ok brother Yuke. I had hoped to make a decent case and give you some things to think about. The passage in Corinthians was written to brothers in Christ.

It was written to the church in Corinth, just as Christ talked to the seven churches yet called some of the people in the churches fallen, dead, adulterers, and lukewarm.

Yet, John Mark deserted Paul. Peter and Barnabas both fell to hypocrisy. The man in 1 Cor was full of sin and disciplined, yet later restored.

Before I go my way...

How long have you been saved?

Scriptures?

As for me being saved, I thought I was clear on that. I have believed for 20+ years, however, that does not mean I am saved. Being saved means you have endured to the end. Do not say we shall do this or we shall do that. God willing I will endure to the end and be saved.

yuker,
i see you have said that "taken out of context" means "i dont wanna change my mind"

this is false. there are situations in which people do in fact take things out of context. it happens when someone assumes they understand the meaning of a text just by reading it on the surface level, isolated from the rest of scripture

All Scripture is profitable for reproof, for correction, for doctrine.

Every verse is true. If a verse is misinterpreted or used wrongly (i.e. Satan quoting Scripture) then Christ proved him wrong by (gasp!) quoting Scripture.

your interpretation cannot reject other scriptures and concepts taught in the bible.

Exactly, thus perfect harmony within the Scriptures.

About the flesh doing the sinning. Who tells the flesh what to do? And if you can sin not only in deed but in thought, "who" is doing the thought sin?

The sin within the flesh. The sin within the flesh. Is the brain flesh or spirit?

We war against the flesh daily. Our flesh desires to do one thing, our soul another thing.

The way I see this aspect is that I have been given the authority and ability to at all times keep the flesh from sinning. Each time I keep the flesh from sinning by enduring temptation I honor God and I think in a way I use less of my Savior's precious blood. Letting the flesh influence me to the point I miss the mark of perfection, I see is like spitting in Jesus' face and twisting the spear in His side. He may still love us through it, but I guess I see it like holding the whip and striking Jesus with it every time I follow the desires of the flesh instead of the desires of the Spirit.

I don't disagree here.

Me, I do the deciding, not God, not my spirit and not my flesh. I think. EDIT: My conscience tells me I still miss the mark, thank You Father for Jesus!

God may decide not to write down our sin against our account, and there can be much joy and peace in this. Then I don't think there is any honor in, or justification for deciding to follow the desires of the flesh.

All things work together for the good of those that love God. Even your sin. God uses evil to accomplish his purposes as well as good.

What law did it abolish?

The law of sin and death.

This idea that we can still live by the flesh and yet our spirits are still all good... just doesn't work well Scripturally.

God bless you, you got it! We don't live by the flesh. We strive against it, daily even.

you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

[reformedct]

Yuke,

About the flesh doing the sinning. Who tells the flesh what to do? And if you can sin not only in deed but in thought, "who" is doing the thought sin?

The way I see this aspect is that I have been given the authority and ability to at all times keep the flesh from sinning. Each time I keep the flesh from sinning by enduring temptation I honor God and I think in a way I use less of my Savior's precious blood. Letting the flesh influence me to the point I miss the mark of perfection, I see is like spitting in Jesus' face and twisting the spear in His side. He may still love us through it, but I guess I see it like holding the whip and striking Jesus with it every time I follow the desires of the flesh instead of the desires of the Spirit. Me, I do the deciding, not God, not my spirit and not my flesh. I think. EDIT: My conscience tells me I still miss the mark, thank You Father for Jesus!

God may decide not to write down our sin against our account, and there can be much joy and peace in this. Then I don't think there is any honor in, or justification for deciding to follow the desires of the flesh.

Peace,
Joe

i agree. the Spirit gives us power over all sin. that does not mean we cant choose sin but like you said its like whipping Jesus's back when we do that because it was our sin that he died for. I cant wait to recieve my glorified body and be removed from the presence of sin so i dont have to worry about all this striving

[reformedct]

It would benefit folks to really understand what Paul is saying in Romans 8.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so;
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.
12 ¶So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh --
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

This idea that we can still live by the flesh and yet our spirits are still all good... just doesn't work well Scripturally.

i did notmmean to imply that its ok to sin or that when we sin our spirits are still happy and dandy. im saying is that when we sin we are following after the flesh. the spirit is not sinning it is the flesh that is weak. our spirits are born of God so when we sin our spirits are grieved. They are very much affected. however when we do what our Spirit wants we obey. when we disobey we are going against our spirits and towards the flesh. The Spirit is deeply affected by sin but it is not the spirit who is sinning.

That being said this does not mean we are not responsible for our sin. We cant just say, my flesh made me do it! no, we are told to not listen to our flesh

[Friend of I AM]

i have noticed there are a couple of people on here who believe that a true Christian never sins. I am not here to mock you or say IM RIGHT YOURE WRONG. However i would like to see how you view this passage in phillipians 3:

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

it seems to me that straining forward indicates work, but if Paul never sins why must he strain? If a true christian never sins, why must they "work out" their salvation with fear and trembling? if i will never sin, what is there to fear?

also what is he reffering to when he says he is not perfect?
ive heard i guy who said we cannot sin say: its not that we are tempted to sin and give in, it's that we cannot be tempted because we are born of God. However Paul clearly says he is not perfect in some fashion. Is it in obedience? is it in the state of his humanity, where sin in is present in his members? please help me out here

please dont see this as a mocking of your beliefs i am trying to respectfully understand your theology

If we make it to that finish line, we have to remember that it is God in the end who is the perfecter of our faith..and walk. Thus I would say that one should be conscious of nothing before the appointed time, all the while asking God to test them within their life with various situations to keep them walking on the right path and keep them in a state of humility before him.

[Yukerboy]

That being said this does not mean we are not responsible for our sin. We cant just say, my flesh made me do it! no, we are told to not listen to our flesh

I should have made a distinction now that the word responsible has been used.

responsible = needing to respond to.
accountable = needing to account for.

The souls of those who are born again are responsible for what our flesh does.

The souls of those who are born again are not accountable for what our flesh does.

[Vhayes]

I'm tip-toeing in here and will probably tip-toe back out -

Yuke, are you saying that sin is no longer the issue? That Christ paid for all sin? The issue now is what we do with the gift of salvation and our rewards in heaven will be based on our growth and submission to Him while we are in these bodies?

Tip-toeing out now...
V

[Yukerboy]

I'm tip-toeing in here and will probably tip-toe back out -

Yuke, are you saying that sin is no longer the issue? That Christ paid for all sin? The issue now is what we do with the gift of salvation and our rewards in heaven will be based on our growth and submission to Him while we are in these bodies?

Tip-toeing out now...
V

V, you are always welcome into any discussion.

Sin is no longer the issue. Sin in our soul has been washed away. Sin in the flesh cannot be, which is why the flesh is corrupt.

The issue now is not to worry about sin if you are born again. Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, but worry more about doing right than doing wrong.

Our rewards in heaven are based on our growth and submission to Him. Our rewards in heaven are based on the works we do through faith. Works is a result of faith.

[Sirus]

What law did it abolish?

2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Now, don't get me wrong. If we take the teachings of the Holy Spirit through Paul holistically, which is the only what to accept Scripture, then we understand that Christ becomes the focus and His gospel empowers us to fulfill the righteousness in the law and to hold up the law. In Romans 7, the law did not die. The old man did.

[reformedct]

please help me out on my interpretation:

"we are no longer under the law but under grace"

it has been my interpretation that this means our relationship and right standing with God depends on grace thru faith in Christ and His finished work for our redemption, not in keeping the law.

is this interpretation accurate?

i am not arguing for a sin lisence, i know we should not sin that grace may abound

[Sirus]

Correct!
Thru faith (trusting God's word) IN Christ ( in your position/crucifixion) you will fulfill the righteousness in the law and hold up (establish) the law by following Jesus' commandment to love, which ALL the law hinges on.

[nizzy]

Hi All:

I see you are having a lively discussion. Have you read the above-titled book? If not, here is the link:

http://www.crcbermuda.com/sermons-se...ithout-sinning

http://www.crcbermuda.com/sermons-se...ithout-sinning

Have a read and then we can discuss further. Thanks!