Sinless perfection in this life

[Brother Mark]

Two things on that point. One is the brother may not be saved, which means he can sin. The other is that the brother sins against you. Sinning against you and sinning against God are two seperate things.

1 Cor 8:12

12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
KJV

[Yukerboy]

Are you sure? When David murdered Uriah, he wrote "against you and you only have I sinned oh God".




So if the flesh is not born of God but the Spirit is, then perhaps those verses refer to your spirit and not your flesh. For the same Spirit that wrote that which is born of God cannot sin, also wrote "If a man says he has no sin, he is a liar". If a saved man cannot sin, then he has no sin.

Yes, I am sure. As for John's writings, see post #12

your conclusion to the meaning of being saved

Being saved means to be granted salvation. Salvation means to be with Christ in the Kingdom of God. Being in the Kingdom of God means that not having a blemish. Not having a blemish means having not sinned.

And what about the man in first corinthians that sinned and was yet, later restored?

Show the passage. Right away I would think either he wasn't born again and sinned, or was born again and did not sin. He may have been a part of the faith but never belonged to us for the only ones that belong to us remain with us. Some go out from us, but were never of us.

Did Peter sin against the Lord when he denied him?

Absolutely.

Paul rebuked Peter openly, not over doctrine. But over how he treated people. Did Peter love the gentiles as he loved the Jews?

Yes he did.

Is refusing to walk uprightly not a sin?

Yes it is.

And what of the verse in 1 John, where the holy Spirit says that anyone who says he has no sin is a liar.

Post #12. I never denied we have sin abiding in our flesh. If we say sin doesn't abide in us, we lie.

Or what of 1 John, when it says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us. What sins are we to confess?

The sins we have committed. After being born again, we cannot sin.

Did John Mark sin when he broke his commitment to Paul?

Show me.

Did the sons of thunder sin when they offered to rain fire down from heaven on the Samaritans?

Did the apostles sin when Jesus chastised them for having little faith, when we know that Hebrews says without faith, it is impossible to please God?

Were they born again before or after Christ's death?

Why warn so hard against sin, when writing to the churches if sin could not be committed?

To make your election sure. You can believe you are saved and not be saved. You only know once you have endured to the end.

[Yukerboy]

1 Cor 8:12

12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
KJV

If you sin against Christ, it is because you did not do what you do out of love or out of faith. Everything not done out of faith is sin.

Therefore, by sinning in this way, you would have never been born again for John states one who is born again cannot sin. You will not persevere. You have destroyed your own brethren through your knowledge. You are a murderer and a murderer hates his brother.

[Brother Mark]

Show the passage. Right away I would think either he wasn't born again and sinned, or was born again and did not sin. He may have been a part of the faith but never belonged to us for the only ones that belong to us remain with us. Some go out from us, but were never of us.

Check out 1 Cor 5. Of course, that brother was restored in 2 Cor.

Yes it is.

If refusing to walk uprightly is a sin, then here is what Paul said concerning Peter in Galatians.

Gal 2:11-14

11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?
NASB

Here, we see Paul saying that Peter and Barnabas both were committing the sin of hypocrisy. In another version, he called it not walking uprightly.

Gal 2:14

14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
KJV

Post #12. I never denied we have sin abiding in our flesh. If we say sin doesn't abide in us, we lie.

Jesus said that what was in the heart comes out. So if sin is inside, will it not surface?

The sins we have committed. After being born again, we cannot sin.

Peter denied Christ after being born again. Remember, Jesus taught about being born again to Nicodemus. Being born again is not just a new testament doctrine. It was one that Jesus expected Nicodemus to be aware of. Peter was born again before Jesus died.

Show me.

Acts 15:36-41

36 And after some days Paul said to Barnabas, "Let us return and visit the brethren in every city in which we proclaimed the word of the Lord, and see how they are." 37 And Barnabas was desirous of taking John, called Mark, along with them also. 38 But Paul kept insisting that they should not take him along who had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not gone with them to the work. 39 And there arose such a sharp disagreement that they separated from one another, and Barnabas took Mark with him and sailed away to Cyprus. 40 But Paul chose Silas and departed, being committed by the brethren to the grace of the Lord. 41 And he was traveling through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.
NASB

Were they born again before or after Christ's death?

Before. Did God not promise Israel a new heart? Did he give Saul a new heart upon his conversion before he became king?

To make your election sure. You can believe you are saved and not be saved. You only know once you have endured to the end.

Yet, John said he wrote 1 John so that we could know. There is a reason you have not heard your doctrine preached anywhere brother Yuke.

[Brother Mark]

If you sin against Christ, it is because you did not do what you do out of love or out of faith. Everything not done out of faith is sin.

Therefore, by sinning in this way, you would have never been born again for John states one who is born again cannot sin. You will not persevere. You have destroyed your own brethren through your knowledge. You are a murderer and a murderer hates his brother.

Yet, Paul wrote it to believers, not unbelievers. He even called them Saints in the beginning of his book.

I thought we had already established that the flesh and soul are not born of God. Cannot the flesh and soul sin?

[SIG]

What does the Bible say about sanctification?

Define Sanctification.

(From post # 72)

Sanctification is the process of being set apart to do God's will.

More on this from Let Us Reason Ministries:

Confusing the Doctrines of Justification and Sanctification

The Bible teaches that one is justified once they trust in Christ (through faith (Rom. 3:24-25; 4:5;5:1,l8).

Justification speaks of a legal declaration that gives one a right standing before God. It is a one time event. It involves an imputed righteousness of Christ in which we, although we are sinners, are pronounced "not guilty" of sin as in a court of law. We are cleared of any charges against us. Christ's sacrifice means he was punished in our place, satisfying the demands of the law, and God's justice upon sin.

Sanctification begins with justification - it means to separate one unto Christ's service. We are both sanctified and justified when we exercise faith in the gospel for salvation. Sanctification is a continual work of the Holy Spirit in the believer to conform us to the image of God's Son. It is the Holy Spirit's work to bring practical holiness and the fruit of the Spirit in one's life. This is continual process until one is taken to be with the Lord.

Glorification is the ending of the sanctification process and occurs when we get to Heaven, either by means of death, rapture, or resurrection. We are then in an eternal state and have been made righteous in our nature.

Most cults ignore the work of justification, focus on a person's sanctification, saying that it is our performance that will justify someone and clear their guilt before God. This view avoids the completed work of Christ and takes the emphasis off of grace and puts it on one's performance. They will either combine sanctification with justification or say that we have neither, that they are both a future tense like glorification.

However, the Bible states in Rom. 8:30 that we are already seated in heavenly places. It's a done deal. "those He justified, He also glorified." God always completes His work He started, he is the author and finisher of our faith.

[Yukerboy]

Yet, Paul wrote it to believers, not unbelievers. He even called them Saints in the beginning of his book.

I thought we had already established that the flesh and soul are not born of God. Cannot the flesh and soul sin?

If I write a letter to multiple people I would say "To James, Paul, and Peter.

Just as Paul wrote to "The church in Corinth, those sanctified in Christ, and those everywhere who call on the name of the Lord."

He wrote it to those who were sanctified and those who believed for a time, then fell away.

The flesh and the soul are not born of God, they both sin, but only one is cleansed.

[Brother Mark]

If I write a letter to multiple people I would say "To James, Paul, and Peter.

Just as Paul wrote to "The church in Corinth, those sanctified in Christ, and those everywhere who call on the name of the Lord."

He wrote it to those who were sanctified and those who believed for a time, then fell away.

The flesh and the soul are not born of God, they both sin, but only one is cleansed.

The cleansing of the soul is sanctification. The spirit within you doesn't sin for it is born of God. The soul you have had since conception can and still does sin. Peter committed the sin of hypocrisy and Paul wrote of it in Acts. John Mark deserted Paul and Barnabas on a missionary journey but was later restored.

Paul instructed the stronger brother, to give up his freedom so as not to sin against the weaker brother. Here's the context of sinning against Christ... Paul is writing concerning a weaker brother and a stronger brother...

1 Cor 8:10-13
10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12 And thus, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, that I might not cause my brother to stumble.
NASB

Now, since you believe that Christ only died for those that are saved, Paul here makes it clear that this weaker brother could be coaxed into sinning. This example is one brother causing another brother to stumble and Paul calls it a sin against Christ. He's talking about two believers.

As I mentioned earlier, there is a reason your doctrine is not being preached anywhere. Take note of that.

[voicenthewildernes]

If you sin against Christ, it is because you did not do what you do out of love or out of faith. Everything not done out of faith is sin.

Therefore, by sinning in this way, you would have never been born again for John states one who is born again cannot sin. You will not persevere. You have destroyed your own brethren through your knowledge. You are a murderer and a murderer hates his brother.

One who is born again is not immune from sin of this world. I believe you are taking what John says out of context. One who is born again and resides in a corruptible flesh body can still submit to sin. Once saved our spirit is quickened not our flesh body. The result is an inperfect temple. If your idea of being saved has elevated you to perfection you are dead wrong. Being saved is where one submits to the Holy Spirit daily, by and through the Holy Spirit this flesh body can overcome sin. While being able to overcome sin we are still in an inperfect state of being which by nature is prone to sinful desires. Perfection is attained when upon His return your flesh body falls away and your perfected body rises up to meet Christ in the air. Can one be saved and still be able to sin? I think so, but it is Christ's duty to do the will of His Father in that He will not lose even one the God has given to Him. That was para phrasing of the book of John. So In my understanding once saved always saved according to the will of God and maintained by Jesus Christ. Besides, he who is without sin let him cast the first stone at a sinful saved soul. Christ be our Redeemer and our Judge, we are neither and shouldn't even try.


Voice

[reformedct]

One who is born again is not immune from sin of this world. I believe you are taking what John says out of context. One who is born again and resides in a corruptible fresh body can still submit to sin. Once saved our spirit is quickened not our flesh body. The result is an inperfect temple. If your idea of being saved has elevated you to perfection you are dead wrong. Being saved is where one submits to the Holy Spirit daily, by and through the Holy Spirit this flesh body can overcome sin. While being able to overcome sin we are still in an inperfect state of being which by nature is prone to sinful desires. Perfection is attained when upon His return your flesh body falls away and your perfected body rises up to meet Christ in the air. Can one be saved and still be able to sin? I think so, but it is Christ's duty to do the will of His Father in that He will not lose even one the God has given to Him. That was para phrasing of the book of John. So In my understanding once saved always saved according to the will of God and maintained by Jesus Christ. Besides, he who is without sin let him cast the first stone at a sinful saved soul. Christ be our Redeemer and our Judge, we are neither and shouldn't even try.


Voice

yes this is why Paul CONSTANTLY told the churches

DONT submit yourselves to sin

DONT let sin reign in your body

DONT use your members as instruments of unrighteousness

DONT you know that you are the temple of the Holy Spirit

if christians cannot submit to sin he would not say these,

however, notice how all the issues of sin are in the flesh. the spirit of the believer does not sin. that is why the spirit is at odds with the flesh. However the Christian can choose to submit even though he has power over sin. The spirit does not sin, but the Christian gives his members as instruments of unrighteousness.

[Yukerboy]

The cleansing of the soul is sanctification. The spirit within you doesn't sin for it is born of God. The soul you have had since conception can and still does sin. Peter committed the sin of hypocrisy and Paul wrote of it in Acts. John Mark deserted Paul and Barnabas on a missionary journey but was later restored.

Paul instructed the stronger brother, to give up his freedom so as not to sin against the weaker brother. Here's the context of sinning against Christ... Paul is writing concerning a weaker brother and a stronger brother...

1 Cor 8:10-13
10 For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idol's temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11 For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake Christ died. 12 And thus, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, that I might not cause my brother to stumble.
NASB

Now, since you believe that Christ only died for those that are saved, Paul here makes it clear that this weaker brother could be coaxed into sinning. This example is one brother causing another brother to stumble and Paul calls it a sin against Christ. He's talking about two believers.

As I mentioned earlier, there is a reason your doctrine is not being preached anywhere. Take note of that.

I never said Christ died for only those who are saved. He is talking about two people who currently believe, but nothing says they are born again, because the only ones who are born again are those that persevere. If one has no faith or sins, then obviously, he is not born again.

As for the reason this doctrine is not preached is because of fear of people like you. You think I enjoy being the punching bag?

I don't, but I have no fear.

One who is born again is not immune from sin of this world. I believe you are taking what John says out of context. One who is born again and resides in a corruptible fresh body can still submit to sin. Once saved our spirit is quickened not our flesh body. The result is an inperfect temple. If your idea of being saved has elevated you to perfection you are dead wrong. Being saved is where one submits to the Holy Spirit daily, by and through the Holy Spirit this flesh body can overcome sin. While being able to overcome sin we are still in an inperfect state of being which by nature is prone to sinful desires. Perfection is attained when upon His return your flesh body falls away and your perfected body rises up to meet Christ in the air. Can one be saved and still be able to sin? I think so, but it is Christ's duty to do the will of His Father in that He will not lose even one the God has given to Him. That was para phrasing of the book of John. So In my understanding once saved always saved according to the will of God and maintained by Jesus Christ. Besides, he who is without sin let him cast the first stone at a sinful saved soul. Christ be our Redeemer and our Judge, we are neither and shouldn't even try.

As I said before, when one says "taken out of context" one means "I don't care what the Scripture says, I'm holding on to what I believe."

Can one be saved and still be able to sin? I think so,

And there is the proof.

Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Surprisingly, the majority of the rest of the post agrees with me.

[Yukerboy]

yes this is why Paul CONSTANTLY told the churches

DONT submit yourselves to sin

DONT let sin reign in your body

DONT use your members as instruments of unrighteousness

DONT you know that you are the temple of the Holy Spirit

if christians cannot submit to sin he would not say these,

however, notice how all the issues of sin are in the flesh. the spirit of the believer does not sin. that is why the spirit is at odds with the flesh. However the Christian can choose to submit even though he has power over sin. The spirit does not sin, but the Christian gives his members as instruments of unrighteousness.

Exactly!

The other reason is to make your election sure! The only way to do that is to know you do right! All of this is to ensure you endure to the end!

[Brother Mark]

I never said Christ died for only those who are saved. He is talking about two people who currently believe, but nothing says they are born again, because the only ones who are born again are those that persevere. If one has no faith or sins, then obviously, he is not born again.

As for the reason this doctrine is preached is because of fear of people like you.

I have no fear.

Ok brother Yuke. I had hoped to make a decent case and give you some things to think about. The passage in Corinthians was written to brothers in Christ.

And there is the proof.

Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Surprisingly, the majority of the rest of the post agrees with me.

Yet, John Mark deserted Paul. Peter and Barnabas both fell to hypocrisy. The man in 1 Cor was full of sin and disciplined, yet later restored.

Before I go my way...

How long have you been saved?

[Sirus]

(From post # 72)

Sanctification is the process of being set apart to do God's will.

Sanctification begins with justification - it means to separate one unto Christ's service. We are both sanctified and justified when we exercise faith in the gospel for salvation. Sanctification is a continual work of the Holy Spirit in the believer to conform us to the image of God's Son. It is the Holy Spirit's work to bring practical holiness and the fruit of the Spirit in one's life. This is continual process until one is taken to be with the Lord.

However, the Bible states in Rom. 8:30 that we are already seated in heavenly places. It's a done deal. "those He justified, He also glorified." God always completes His work He started, he is the author and finisher of our faith.

Sanctification is by faith just as justification.

No matter what you do will not be anymore sanctified in 20 years than you are the day you are born again. If you are, you are sanctified by works, but Jesus said we are sanctified by faith.

Also, funny how they say "those He justified, He also glorified." and not

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

[Sirus]

Ok brother Yuke.

How long have you been saved?

He said something about 20 years but that's no marvel....
I was saved 15 before I realized I was already dead
Some just don't get it because they haven't been taught the whole gospel and are seeing through mans theological eyes. I can say that because I am as guilty as the rest.