I think that's one of the questions I'll ask Jesus when I see Him, but until then, it's not very high on the list!
I live here!
I think that's one of the questions I'll ask Jesus when I see Him, but until then, it's not very high on the list!
Get on my horse.
Well, I won't take credit because I'm pretty sure I heard the line of argument before, just can't place when and where. Anyway, it makes interesting speculation, but it may be never truly answered with any satisfaction.Originally Posted by moonglow
Regarding the last point, a bit off-topic but of some interest, I do recall our pastor once remarking how during the period of Jesus' birth and life, many Jewish men had risen and claimed to be the Messiah. There is some indication in the Bible from Acts where the Sanhedrin in conferring what to do with Peter and the apostles:
Acts:5: 34-39
The line I bolded is believed to refer to the same census as at the time of Jesus' birth.34 But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. 35 Then he addressed them: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. 36 Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. 37After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. 38 Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."
It is only the cynic who claims “to speak the truth” at all times and in all places to all men in the same way, but who, in fact, displays nothing but a lifeless image of the truth… He dons the halo of the fanatical devotee of truth who can make no allowance for human weaknesses; but, in fact, he is destroying the living truth between men. He wounds shame, desecrates mystery, breaks confidence, betrays the community in which he lives, and laughs arrogantly at the devastation he has wrought and at the human weakness which “cannot bear the truth”. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in Ethics.
Coffee Break
Okay, so who cares when the Magi found him? Don't we all find him eventually in our own time?
Get on my horse.
As far as I can tell, we are just discussing the times, timing and reasons for the magi visit. I don't think anyone is putting a great deal of theological significance to this. It's just an interesting discussion as far as I'm concerned.
It is only the cynic who claims “to speak the truth” at all times and in all places to all men in the same way, but who, in fact, displays nothing but a lifeless image of the truth… He dons the halo of the fanatical devotee of truth who can make no allowance for human weaknesses; but, in fact, he is destroying the living truth between men. He wounds shame, desecrates mystery, breaks confidence, betrays the community in which he lives, and laughs arrogantly at the devastation he has wrought and at the human weakness which “cannot bear the truth”. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in Ethics.
Formerly moonglow
That is interesting...thanks. I saw a movie once...can't recall the name of it now....but they pointed out in it that many had come before and after...claiming to be the Messiah....(we seen Jesus warning of false Christ that will claim to be Him and deceive many which we read in historical accounts did happen! And usually resulted in the death of those following these false Christ) Several of the movies I have seen regarding the life of Christ show the Jewish religious leader growing tired of these men claiming to be Christ... before Jesus actually came. In the movies they seemed intent on wanting to 'stamp out' these false Messiah and could fairly easily and it all came to nothing as that passage you posted shows... maybe this is part of the reason they missed SO many signs when He did come! Interesting about this one false Messiah coming during the census like that...
God bless
"People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson
Formerly moonglow
Its an interesting study of not just the bible, but the outside evidence showing how accurate the biblical accounts are on this. Sorry if I embarrassed you in anyway...that surely wasn't my intentions. I deal with alot of nonbelievers online and people seeking information regarding the bible, Christ and so forth. This information I use is called Apologetics...a powerful witnessing tool when we are working with nonbelievers. I personally find this more then just an interesting study but possibly a powerful witness for Christ. Everyone is lead to Christ differently and maybe for some, the story of Christ being written in the sky by God Himself will be what draws them to Him.
The DVD The Star of Bethlehem is being shown in churches all across the world..not just in the USA...but across the world. Many are that impressed with how so many 'Heavenly signs' that were predicted in the bible can now be shown to be true! They really did happen. So many doubt so much in the bible...I just think this is all so fabulous.
Psalm 19
1 ...The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. 2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. 3 There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. 4 Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world...
God bless
"People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson
Member
If the disciples wanted us to celebrate the Birthday of Jesus, they could have trace the exact date of His Birth then let us know it, but they didn't do it. None of the disciples mentioned His Birthday.
Why ? To Jesus who existed eternally before the creation of the world, the date of His Incarnation doesn't mean very much as billions of people celebrate it today.
He was born to die and His death may be more meaningful.
1. It is quite well known that Jesus could not have been born during November thru March, because the sheperds couldn't sheperd the flocks in the field but instead they kept them in the cattleshed during the winter which was the normal custom.
But Luke reports the sheperds were keeping their flocks in the field.
So, Decmber 25 cannot fit these Bible records.
2. Jesus was not born in a hotel or in a motel, but in a private house.
Many English bible translate the Kata Luma as the inn, but it meant the Guestroom or Guest chamber as we read Luke 22:11 meaning guest chamber of a private house ( Jesus mentioned this !)
What we can presume is that there was no space in the private house at the guest chamber because it was right after the harvest season, after the first-fruits harvest, then they stored the grains in the guest room which was quite common custom in case of average houses at that time.
So the Guestroom was full of grains, there was no space in there, and therefore Jesus was born outside. It might be around the Pentecost which celebrated 7 weeks after the first-fruits.
There are some more biblical reasons for supporting the Birthday around May, but the above may be enough to reject the idea of December 25 as His birthday.
Christmas started to be celebrated only after 5-6 century AD, I believe.
Even in USA, it was illegal to celebrate Christmas until late 19 century, I believe.
If it is not from the Words of God, where is it from? It must be from paganism, and especially I do understand it is related to Egyptian god Horus birthday, Roman god Saturn festival, North European Solar god worship. Sun god is not dead but alive when it is coming up again after winter solstice.
What is the meaning of the word Christ-mas? What is Mas?
Someone here may explain better than I do, but I understand it means sacrifice in Latin, because Roman Catholic performs the Sacrifice every week. But the True Believers believe that All the Sacrifice was done at the Cross by Jesus and no more sacrifice is needed.
I don't participate in the sacrifice any more but I believe Jesus Christ have done and completed the perfect Sacrifice to God when He cried "It is finished" So I don't participate in the Mass.
It is Finished.
Formerly moonglow
I have to wonder if you even read my post...this isn't about the Shepherd...but the wise men who found Jesus much later...when He was a toddler...not a new born babe.
Oh yes they did! They recorded His birth. Which makes it His birthday. I don't know if back then they celebrated anyone's birthday as we do today...I don't recall one birthday of anyone in the bible mentioned, but their day of birth was indeed recorded for many in the bible. I won't stop celebrating my son's birthday...or anyone in my families simply because birthday's are not mentioned in the bible...
His birth was apparently important enough to God to send Angels to announce it...plus a 'star' to guide the wise men...Heaven made a pretty big deal out of His birth...so I see nothing wrong with us doing the same thing. All of His life was important..from the way He was conceived, to His birth, to His life, to His death and to His rising...Why ? To Jesus who existed eternally before the creation of the world, the date of His Incarnation doesn't mean very much as billions of people celebrate it today.
He was born to die and His death may be more meaningful.
This isn't about the shepherds...its about the wise men who did find Jesus in a house later when He was a toddler.1. It is quite well known that Jesus could not have been born during November thru March, because the sheperds couldn't sheperd the flocks in the field but instead they kept them in the cattleshed during the winter which was the normal custom.
But Luke reports the sheperds were keeping their flocks in the field.
So, Decmber 25 cannot fit these Bible records.
Luke 22:112. Jesus was not born in a hotel or in a motel, but in a private house.
Many English bible translate the Kata Luma as the inn, but it meant the Guestroom or Guest chamber as we read Luke 22:11 meaning guest chamber of a private house ( Jesus mentioned this !)
11 say to the owner, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is the guest room where I can eat the Passover meal with my disciples?’
This verse is about where they were going to eat Passover at...not where Jesus lived as a baby...I think you have things confused.
Luke 2
16 They hurried to the village and found Mary and Joseph. And there was the baby, lying in the manger.
This is NOT about Jesus being born on Dec! Read my post again please!What we can presume is that there was no space in the private house at the guest chamber because it was right after the harvest season, after the first-fruits harvest, then they stored the grains in the guest room which was quite common custom in case of average houses at that time.
So the Guestroom was full of grains, there was no space in there, and therefore Jesus was born outside. It might be around the Pentecost which celebrated 7 weeks after the first-fruits.
There are some more biblical reasons for supporting the Birthday around May, but the above may be enough to reject the idea of December 25 as His birthday.
Here is a video I did about this subject for those that want to know: Jesus was not a sun godChristmas started to be celebrated only after 5-6 century AD, I believe.
Even in USA, it was illegal to celebrate Christmas until late 19 century, I believe.
If it is not from the Words of God, where is it from? It must be from paganism, and especially I do understand it is related to Egyptian god Horus birthday, Roman god Saturn festival, North European Solar god worship. Sun god is not dead but alive when it is coming up again after winter solstice.
What is the meaning of the word Christ-mas? What is Mas?
Someone here may explain better than I do, but I understand it means sacrifice in Latin, because Roman Catholic performs the Sacrifice every week. But the True Believers believe that All the Sacrifice was done at the Cross by Jesus and no more sacrifice is needed.
I don't participate in the sacrifice any more but I believe Jesus Christ have done and completed the perfect Sacrifice to God when He cried "It is finished" So I don't participate in the Mass.
It is Finished.
I sure wish people would not jump to conclusions and think I am saying Jesus was born on Dec....this is NOT about His birth! Its about when the wise men found Him which was sometime later..
"People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson
Formerly moonglow
<--wise men, following the 'star'...took them a long, long time to travel it and find toddler Jesus...living in a house by then...
Then evil Herod found out and decided to have all the male children in Bethlehem killed...and angel warned Joseph to take Mary and Jesus and flee to Egypt....until after Herod died then it was safe to go back...
"People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson
Are you suggesting that we must all believe Jesus was born on December 25?
Formerly moonglow
No...(well some might)...but everyone seems to think the wise men showed up the same time the shepherds did...which I guess is understandable since most nativity scenes do show it that way...but actually they showed up quite some time later. People bring this up every year so I figured everyone knew by now the nativity scenes weren't correct...guess I was wrong! So I had my title edited to avoid this confusion....Are you suggesting that we must all believe Jesus was born on December 25?
A friend gave me that little wise men smilie thing...so I had to come up with an excuse to use it...
God bless
"People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson
Member
*
I have also seen the video you are referring to, and I think it is very interesting indeed. I am frustrated by some of the replies here that obviously jumped to conclusions and did not read your op at all.
Thanks for sharing!
Formerly moonglow
You are welcome and thanks for reading it!
God bless
"People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson
Member
You must show me where the Bible recorded the birthday of Jesus Christ!
Nobody know when is His Birthday! Why? No one has recorded the exact date of His Birthday! Bible recorded His Birth, not when was His Birthday!
If disciples wanted us to celebrate His Birthday, they could have traced the more exact date of His Birth, because they lived closer to the time of His birth. have you found any disciples in the Bible celebrating His Birthday?
Yes His Birth is important but not His Birthday party. He was born to Die.
Where did you find Jesus was a toddler when the wise men visited Him?
I think you have not read Greek text of New Testament.
Almost all English translations translated Luke 2:7 there was no room in the Inn, But you must understand this Inn is the translation from Kata-Luma which means Guest Room in a private house. Consult with the Greek specialist if you cannot trust me. Then this Kata Luma appears only 3 times in the Bible, Luke 2:7, Luke 22:11, Mark 14:14.
Except Luke 2:7, the other two times translated it as Guest chamber ( of a private house).
Any greek lexicon confirms that Kataluma is just a guest room in any house.
On the other hand, Inns or motels in Greek are Pandoxeion as we read Luke 10:34.
Samaritan ( shadow of Jesus Christ) applied wine and oil ( Jesus shed the Blood and sent Holy Spirit) then assigned the victim to the Inn ( symbol of church).
If you understand Greek, this is very simple and clear.
Your story is based on the wrong understanding about the Kata Luma and based on that Jesus was born in a motel, then moved to a house when He was a toddler, which was untrue.
Jesus was born in a private house, and the wise men visited Him when He was a baby. The wise men may have been late by few days or a few weeks, but not 2 years.
You missed the point that I was mentioning about kata Luma, the private house place.
Formerly moonglow
ekj....this thread is about the DVD and website of the Star of Bethlehem...about what the wise men might have seen and how could a 'star' change directions and so forth. Its not about debating celebrating Christmas or not...there are other threads on that I am sure you would enjoy. And its not about all these other things you have brought up. If you think these issues are so important, maybe you might want to start a new thread about them on the board. I am not debating off topic issues with you on this though. I want to stick to the topic of what the 'star' was. Thanks.
And Merry Christmas.
"People do not drift toward holiness. Apart from grace-driven effort, people do not gravitate toward godliness, prayer, obedience to Scripture, faith, and delight in the Lord. We drift toward compromise and call it tolerance; We drift toward disobedience and call it freedom; We drift toward superstition and call it faith. We cherish the indiscipline of lost self-control and call it relaxation; we slouch toward prayerlessness and delude ourselves into thinking we have escaped legalism; we slide toward godlessness and convince ourselves we have been liberated?" - D A Carson
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