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Thread: renouncing calvinism

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by reformedct View Post
    in my short time of studying the scriptures, and being on this board,

    i have decided to renounce myself as a calvinist lol

    not that i dont agree with the concepts of TULIP

    but i think these kind of things can get in the way of just reading our bibles

    for example, i agree christ died for the elect, and that those who will end up in hell did not have their sins atoned for

    however i think using a term such as Limited Atonement is not as helpful as just showing people SCRIPTURE

    the term limited atonement can cause much confusion

    i have decided to hold a more augustinian position in my theology but more importantly simply SCRIPTURAL in theology is what we should all be
    Greetings Reformed,

    I've discovered that it does not matter whether I call myself a Calvinist or not. The FACT remains that when I speak of the doctrines of Scripture and show through the Bible how they are indeed doctrines of God's Sovereign Grace, then I will be called a Calvinist by those who embrace the doctrine of free will.

    To label someone a Calvinist is an attempt to not only justify the unbiblical doctrine of free will, but also to make others believe that they need not search the Scripture to see if what I say is true. By calling me a Calvinist they can simply claim that I follow the doctrines of a man, therefore it is foolish to listen to anything I say. It matters not one whit to some people, that what I might say may align perfectly with the teachings of Christ, still they are comfortable in their doctrine of free will, and would rather not be confronted with what sayeth the Word of God.

    I understand why you would not want to be called a Calvinist. In fact neither do I...but that will not change the fact that if you continue to defend and biblically support God's Sovereignty over man's free will, you will be confronted with the title. There are far worse things then being called a Calvinist, like for instance Arminian, Pelagian, or semi-Pelagian.

    The question is, do we espouse God-centered Biblical doctrine of God's Sovereign Grace over man...or do we espouse un-biblical man-centered doctrine, where man is sovereign over God?

    Many Blessings,
    RW

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerW View Post
    Greetings Reformed,

    I've discovered that it does not matter whether I call myself a Calvinist or not. The FACT remains that when I speak of the doctrines of Scripture and show through the Bible how they are indeed doctrines of God's Sovereign Grace, then I will be called a Calvinist by those who embrace the doctrine of free will.

    To label someone a Calvinist is an attempt to not only justify the unbiblical doctrine of free will, but also to make others believe that they need not search the Scripture to see if what I say is true. By calling me a Calvinist they can simply claim that I follow the doctrines of a man, therefore it is foolish to listen to anything I say. It matters not one whit to some people, that what I might say may align perfectly with the teachings of Christ, still they are comfortable in their doctrine of free will, and would rather not be confronted with what sayeth the Word of God.

    I understand why you would not want to be called a Calvinist. In fact neither do I...but that will not change the fact that if you continue to defend and biblically support God's Sovereignty over man's free will, you will be confronted with the title. There are far worse things then being called a Calvinist, like for instance Arminian, Pelagian, or semi-Pelagian.

    The question is, do we espouse God-centered Biblical doctrine of God's Sovereign Grace over man...or do we espouse un-biblical man-centered doctrine, where man is sovereign over God?

    Many Blessings,
    RW
    Therein lies the problem Roger. The Arminian does not claim man is sovereign over God. The Arminian agrees that God is sovereign, and that He gave man the freedom to choose. It is the Calvinist who distracts from the real issue, and says that the Arminian claims to be sovereign over God. It is my personal opinion that Calvinists do this, due to the fact that they cannot refute the free will argument, not to mention the multitude of Scripture that they cannot reconcile. As an example I have asked many questions of Calvinists, to which I have received no response.

  3. #33
    Yukerboy Guest
    You will find free will in the Bible right next to rapture, sinful Christians, and the Easter Bunny.

    I especially love it when those who choose to read free will into the Bible will say that sinful nature cannot be found in the Bible unless it is read into it.

    Let us not be hypocritical.

    Yuke

  4. #34
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    Everyone take a few steps back and preview what it is you're stating before you hit that submit reply button. Is what you're stating indicative of the grace and love of our Lord that is within?

    Let's give our views in love and leave out all the "your view is false doctrine" type responses . . .
    "What you do does not define who you are; it's who you are that defines what you do."

    -- Dr. Neil T. Anderson

  5. #35
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    Thumbs up

    Blessings to the OP,

    Any move away from the "ism's" of men and in the direction of Christ is a move in the right direction.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Butch5 View Post
    Therein lies the problem Roger. The Arminian does not claim man is sovereign over God. The Arminian agrees that God is sovereign, and that He gave man the freedom to choose. It is the Calvinist who distracts from the real issue, and says that the Arminian claims to be sovereign over God. It is my personal opinion that Calvinists do this, due to the fact that they cannot refute the free will argument, not to mention the multitude of Scripture that they cannot reconcile. As an example I have asked many questions of Calvinists, to which I have received no response.

    as i also said, i believe arminiasm is slightly off as well. i believe man has freedom of choice, but apart from the work of God, he will not choose to do what he ought. i think this is very scriptural. will a man, of his own will, choose to obey God? to love God? to seek God? to trust God? we must remember all of scripture. the bible says no one seeks God. no one understands. so our interpretation must encompass these types of versus as well as the ones that talk about choice

    for example the OT says pharoah hardened his own heart, then it turns around and says God hardened his heart? which one is it? BOTH! lol God hardened pharoahs heart by being patient and giving him infinitre reasons and time and warnings to repent, but pharaoah was responsible for hardening his heart. God used circumstances to expose Pharaoahs wickedness, he did not force Pharoae to be wicked.

    what i hope everybody takes out from this thread is the hunger to study the word of God more closley than what others tell us

    the way i see it in Scripture:

    God is sovreign in that everything is under his control (this is key)

    God is sovreign in that he can override the "free will" of a man

    (as seen when he told King Nebuchadnezzar he would eat grass like a beast, and in that very hour the King did exactly as God had said. I dont think the King willfully went out and ate grass and lived like a beast. It seems clear that God has the power to override a mans control of his own body, mind, and will)

    God is not responsible for the evil choices that man makes. man is fully accountable, even if he doesnt know the law. He will judge everyone according to their works

    God is responsible for salvation. salvation belongs to the Lord Jonah 2:9

    so salvation is not something we work for, grab, or strive for, but rather it is given by the owner, God

    if man repents, there is scripture that says "perhaps God would GRANT THEM repentance" so it is God who grants repentance

    However if someone does not repent they are still fully accountable for their evil ways

    it sounds like a contradiction but so does romans 3 and james with faith/works

    we must accept all scripture and just pray that God shows us what is right

    as far as my understanding goes:
    it seems that all men have fallen and rebelled against God, and God has chosen to share his salvation with some. He calls and pleads and desires that evryone repents. this does not mean that all people will. God does not desire that women be raped, but it happens. as Jesus said "it is not you who chose me, but i chose you"

    however even though God desires that all repent, is it not God Himself who reveals Himself to others? Did he not have the power to reveal Himself to all the pagan nations in the OT? but he chose not to. It sounds difficult but we must accept what scripture says

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yukerboy View Post
    I especially love it when those who choose to read free will into the Bible...
    Huh? We choose to be wrong about the existence of free will?

    God Bless!
    Watchinginawe

    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by watchinginawe View Post
    Huh? We choose to be wrong about the existence of free will?

    God Bless!
    i think there is a slight misunderstanding of "free will"

    i may be wrong but i believe "free will" was a term coined by a humanist scholar.

    free will means you can choose whatever you want. good or bad.

    it seems scripture teaches bound will. man is free to choose whatever he wants, however apart from God he will use his "freedom" to choose evil and sin and folly. man apart from life in God "freely chooses" death and sin and folly and rebellion

    anything done apart from faith is sin

    feeding the poor apart from faith is sin
    being a nice guy apart from faith is sin
    even when unsaved men do good it is sin, because it is not done in faith and thanksgiving and glory to God. even if an unsaved man does good so that God will be pleased, apart from faith, it is sin, because we are justified by faith in the work of Gods son. We cannot earn our way

    scripture talks about us having a cold heart that needs to be removed and a new heart that needs to be gained

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yukerboy View Post
    You will find free will in the Bible right next to rapture
    'caught up' is

    ...never seen a bunny in there....

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrckBrln View Post
    Where did I say such a thing? I have never even read Calvin. For that matter, I've never read Luther, Edwards, or the Puritans either. And there is nothing wrong with saying Calvin is 'superior' (in the sense that he's more biblical and godly) than somebody like Pelagius.

    What was that first sola of the Reformation again? Oh, that's right, sola scriptura (scripture alone). Not Calvin alone.
    We cannot say that one person is more biblical and godly so we will follow him. That's selecting and elevating one man and his teachings over another.

    Look to Christ, put down catch phrases and all sayings that we've coined over the last 2000 years put forth by men and, as someone else said which I added the other day to my signature - just read scripture for what it says. Let everything you know fall out of your head and just read it. I did, and I thank God for placing that on my heart early in my walk.

    As for sola scripture - close, but "no cigar". We can't make heads or tails of scripture if we don't allow the Holy Spirit to speak to us through it. Otherwise, it's just words. We live a spiritual life, worshiping, praying, communing with God through the Spirit. If we are just reading the words on a page without seeing it with spiritual eyes - may as well close up the book. Thank God for raising up His Son but never leaving us alone to figure this out with our own self!
    Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
    Not second or third, but first.
    Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
    when He is the source of all hope,
    when His love is received and freely given,
    holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
    will all other things be added unto to you.


  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by reformedct View Post
    i think there is a slight misunderstanding of "free will"

    i may be wrong but i believe "free will" was a term coined by a humanist scholar.
    Solomon?

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by reformedct View Post
    i think there is a slight misunderstanding of "free will"

    i may be wrong but i believe "free will" was a term coined by a humanist scholar.

    free will means you can choose whatever you want. good or bad.

    it seems scripture teaches bound will. man is free to choose whatever he wants, however apart from God he will use his "freedom" to choose evil and sin and folly. man apart from life in God "freely chooses" death and sin and folly and rebellion

    scripture talks about us having a cold heart that needs to be removed and a new heart that needs to be gained
    "Ignorace is no excuse for not knowing the law". Romans 1, evidence surrounds us.

    Romans 1
    18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
    20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
    Seek ye FIRST the kingdom.
    Not second or third, but first.
    Only when all else pales to God, when He receives all glory,
    when He is the source of all hope,
    when His love is received and freely given,
    holding not to the world but to the promise to come,
    will all other things be added unto to you.


  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by threebigrocks View Post
    We cannot say that one person is more biblical and godly so we will follow him. That's selecting and elevating one man and his teachings over another.

    Look to Christ, put down catch phrases and all sayings that we've coined over the last 2000 years put forth by men and, as someone else said which I added the other day to my signature - just read scripture for what it says. Let everything you know fall out of your head and just read it. I did, and I thank God for placing that on my heart early in my walk.

    As for sola scripture - close, but "no cigar". We can't make heads or tails of scripture if we don't allow the Holy Spirit to speak to us through it. Otherwise, it's just words. We live a spiritual life, worshiping, praying, communing with God through the Spirit. If we are just reading the words on a page without seeing it with spiritual eyes - may as well close up the book. Thank God for raising up His Son but never leaving us alone to figure this out with our own self!

    i think sola scriptura simply means the bible is the highest authority for mankind. sola scriptura is different than SOLO scriptura, which means only was is written is legitamate, and nothing outside of what is written is valid. under SOLO scriptura there can be no personal experience

    under SOLA scriptura, ther can be personal experience with the Spirit, but it must be consistent with what the Bible teaches. for example if someone said, the Spirit just revealed to me that we should assasinate the president.

    sola scriptura means: ok, this guy said he heard from the Spirit to kill a guy. what does scripture say? sorry dude your revelation doesnt line up with scripture, therefore we reject it. thats what sola scriptura means i believe. it simply means that the Bible is the highest authority not the only authority

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by reformedct View Post
    i think there is a slight misunderstanding of "free will"

    i may be wrong but i believe "free will" was a term coined by a humanist scholar.

    free will means you can choose whatever you want. good or bad.

    it seems scripture teaches bound will. man is free to choose whatever he wants, however apart from God he will use his "freedom" to choose evil and sin and folly. man apart from life in God "freely chooses" death and sin and folly and rebellion
    I really wasn't picking up the term "free will", but rather commenting on how humerous it is that we "choose to see free will".

    I believe the Bible teaches free moral agency. In other words, we can do the will of God or not where God allows such freedom of will. As a corollary, there are certain aspects of God's will that is carried out by man. So, if man does not do the will of God (where God allows such freedom of will) then there is also undone purposes of God. I'm not saying that we can understand it all, but when we see children starving then I say it is not necessarily God's will but possibly God's undone will.

    God Bless!
    Watchinginawe

    I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by threebigrocks View Post
    We cannot say that one person is more biblical and godly so we will follow him. That's selecting and elevating one man and his teachings over another.
    So we can't say that somebody like Calvin was more biblical and godly than somebody who is a heretic? I don't really understand what you are saying here.

    As for sola scripture - close, but "no cigar". We can't make heads or tails of scripture if we don't allow the Holy Spirit to speak to us through it. Otherwise, it's just words. We live a spiritual life, worshiping, praying, communing with God through the Spirit. If we are just reading the words on a page without seeing it with spiritual eyes - may as well close up the book. Thank God for raising up His Son but never leaving us alone to figure this out with our own self!
    And I just got done hearing Albert Mohler talk about this very thing and he said Calvin preached what you just said better than anybody.

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