renouncing calvinism

[threebigrocks]

So we can't say that somebody like Calvin was more biblical and godly than somebody who is a heretic? I don't really understand what you are saying here.

And I just got done hearing Albert Mohler talk about this very thing and he said Calvin preached what you just said better than anybody.

It's not the person Brck. It's the notion of saying one man has a better doctrine than another. Heretic or not, look what that thinking got us - 38,000+ denominations. Cults. Crazy stuff. What of Daniel's prayer in Daniel 9? What of Christ's prayer in John 17? Calvin vs. Luther - doesn't matter. Don't choose them, follow Christ.

You know what? Some who are considered Calvinists are powerful preachers. I'm not one who believes as the reformed do, but have listened to a couple on a rare occation. But, just because a man can preach and get the attention of the congregation (2 or 2000) and hold it for an hour doesn't a correct doctrine make, even if it is something many can agree on.

[BrckBrln]

It's not the person Brck. It's the notion of saying one man has a better doctrine than another. Heretic or not, look what that thinking got us - 38,000+ denominations. Cults. Crazy stuff. What of Daniel's prayer in Daniel 9? What of Christ's prayer in John 17? Calvin vs. Luther - doesn't matter. Don't choose them, follow Christ.

Yeah, I really don't understand this at all. So Calvin's teaching (even though you don't agree with him on everything) is not better than some heretics teaching?

[threebigrocks]

Let me just say this. Christ is best. Put aside what anyone else has said. It's what He says that matters.

[BrckBrln]

Let me just say this. Christ is best. Put aside what anyone else has said. It's what He says that matters.

I agree, but does this mean we shouldn't listen to preachers, then? If Calvin says Christ is the Son of God and another person doesn't, and I 'choose' Calvin's belief over this other person's, does that mean I am following Calvin? No, because what he says is what Scripture says.

[BCF]

I agree, but does this mean we shouldn't listen to preachers, then? If Calvin says Christ is the Son of God and another person doesn't, and I 'choose' Calvin's belief over this other person's, does that mean I am following Calvin? No, because what he says is what Scripture says.

My friend, don't worry so much about what someone tells you. Worry about what the Spirit of God which dwells inside of you tells you. If you are listening to your Spirit...it won't matter if it is something that is of Calvin's belief or what a 6 year old child may tell you. Your Spirit will guide you in the right direction no matter what. All you need to do is listen.

God Bless

Dave

[Sirus]

yes, don't test the spirits to see if they be of God....
...sigh....

[Veretax]

Gotta correct you on a few things.

for example the OT says pharoah hardened his own heart, then it turns around and says God hardened his heart? which one is it? BOTH! lol God hardened pharoahs heart by being patient and giving him infinitre reasons and time and warnings to repent, but pharaoah was responsible for hardening his heart. God used circumstances to expose Pharaoahs wickedness, he did not force Pharoae to be wicked.

I think you are not reading the exodus account chronologically. Both Pharoah and God hardened Pharoah's heart. It was not an either or and If I remember it was like 5-7 times each is mentioned as having done it. God had determined to do something miraculous in egypt so that his name would be known, and after some of the plagues pharoah hardened his own heart and after a coulpe God hardened Pharoah's heart, then Pharoah relented for a moment, asked for it to be taken away, but would not let them go. This happened multiple times in the exodus account during the ten plagues, and the point I am making is that Yes Pharoah was chosen to be the one in his position when God called to set his people free, and god also after being ignored by Pharoah hardened his heart a few times even as pharoah again would harden his own heart, until finally after the tenth plague he let them go, but only for a bit, because he ...


Ex 14:5-9

5 Now it was told the king of Egypt that the people had fled, and the heart of Pharaoh and his servants was turned against the people; and they said, "Why have we done this, that we have let Israel go from serving us?" 6 So he made ready his chariot and took his people with him. 7 Also, he took six hundred choice chariots, and all the chariots of Egypt with captains over every one of them. 8 And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued the children of Israel; and the children of Israel went out with boldness. 9 So the Egyptians pursued them, all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh, his horsemen and his army, and overtook them camping by the sea beside Pi Hahiroth, before Baal Zephon.


Notice that the egyptians and Pharoah turned against them and then God hardened Pharoah again so taht he pursued them and died in the red sea. I think you see my point now.

what i hope everybody takes out from this thread is the hunger to study the word of God more closley than what others tell us

the way i see it in Scripture:

God is sovreign in that everything is under his control (this is key)

God is sovreign in that he can override the "free will" of a man

In my understanding of the bible there are two forms of Will that God has, one is his Soverign will the other is his Moral Will. Mankind absent from Christ lives outside of God's Moral Will.

i think there is a slight misunderstanding of "free will"

i may be wrong but i believe "free will" was a term coined by a humanist scholar.

free will means you can choose whatever you want. good or bad.

it seems scripture teaches bound will. man is free to choose whatever he wants, however apart from God he will use his "freedom" to choose evil and sin and folly. man apart from life in God "freely chooses" death and sin and folly and rebellion

anything done apart from faith is sin

feeding the poor apart from faith is sin
being a nice guy apart from faith is sin
even when unsaved men do good it is sin, because it is not done in faith and thanksgiving and glory to God. even if an unsaved man does good so that God will be pleased, apart from faith, it is sin, because we are justified by faith in the work of Gods son. We cannot earn our way

scripture talks about us having a cold heart that needs to be removed and a new heart that needs to be gained

I believe you are treadding a thin line there. The bible does not say that ALL we do is Sin. Sin is transgression of the Law, what it does say though is that even our best works as sinners are like filthy rags to God. That is used as an illustration to demonstrate how far sin separates us from God, to help us understand our sinful condition however consider this:

Mt 7:11
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! Christ said this, so clearly it is possible to do "good things" even as a sinner, but they don't account to righteousness or balance out the sin, for no amount of good works can do that. Thus is why Christ had to suffer an die on the Cross.


Now I have a different understanding of Free Will. Jesus said noone comes to the Father except the


Mt 11:27
All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Jesus spoke that noone calls unless the father draws, and I believe that absent God's calling man would not know he needed to turn to God. However, I believe that Call is present even in Creation, yet man still chooses to live in sin. (Romans 1) As someone else already noted ignorance of the law does not excuse Sin in God's eyes, only Christ's sacrifice can cover our Sin.

Secondly, I believe God's words have power. He spake the entire world into existence. Jesus while on the lake in the tempest, spoke and it was calmed. I believe that the power of the Gospel can reach all those who will listen and hear. So while you may argue that man cannot exercise free will because he is in a sinful state, I say he has many witnesses around him. Creation, the law and the prophets, Christ, and the Bible, if not also other christians. All are called to repentance, therefore all must make a choice to turn and repent or remain dead in their transgressions. I do not see a conflict of free will or God's Soverignty here.

Yeah, I really don't understand this at all. So Calvin's teaching (even though you don't agree with him on everything) is not better than some heretics teaching?

Paul warned about this

1 Corinthians 1:10-13
10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

1 Corinthians 3:1-4
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal?
1 Corinthians 3:5-10
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
We are not supposed to say well I'm of Pastor David or Brother John, I am of calvin, or luther, or spurgeon, edwards, or Sproul. We are not supposed to do this, because it creates "cliques" it creates division within the Church, and we are to be unified in the word.

[VerticalReality]

This thread has pretty much run its course. I'm going to close this one down.