Product of Grace
We are committed to our beliefs!Originally Posted by powlette
I saw this comment and just wanted to point it out.
Faith? Probably. It certainly qualifies as a belief without proof. Personally, I think it is a leap of faith. (However, this doesn't disqualify your belief from ultimately being true.)
I did a thread on the Mars Phoenix. As a scientist, take a look and see if you can detect the bias that I did.
God Bless!
Watchinginawe
I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.
Super Sonic boom!
When all is said and done, the proof comes from and in the person of Jesus. There have already been posts on this showing you evidence from extra-biblical sources, however, you need to take into account the New Testament. There are many thousands of fragments containing writings in the New Testament written within 50 years or so after the death of Christ. Long enough for direct eyewitnesses or direct associations of direct eyewitnesses.
In other situations there are many pieces of writings which have been written long after (in some cases a few hundred) the historical person in question, which we consider accurate history. When all is said and done, the original writers of the NT were eyewitnesses of what Jesus did. Whether you believe them is another matter, but someone was there.
You could use the bias argument to discount the bible as you wanted outside references, but I put it to you that any piece of "evidence" written or otherwise is to a degree biased. For example, if a person who was an unbeliever wrote about checking the evidence of the cross and Jesus Christ....and they became a believer. Then you could legitimately call it a biased piece. That doesn't necessarily mean you can discount it outright though.
Last edited by MyRock; Jan 6th 2009 at 03:38 PM. Reason: Just general tweeking
Jesus Christ....who do you say He is?
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1
Regular Contributor
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Now I think you're conflating reasoned predictions with faith. If I look at the clouds and my barometer and the Doppler map of the area, I might say that I believe it's going to rain. I wouldn't say I have "faith" that it's going to rain. I have made a prediction based on prior experience with my barometer and what I know about weather patterns.We are committed to our beliefs!
I did a thread on the Mars Phoenix. As a scientist, take a look and see if you can detect the bias that I did.
God Bless!
It's the same here, I don't have faith that we'll find independently evolved life - I believe we will based on the abundance of galaxies, stars, planets and the abundance and prevalence and pervasiveness of life. Insofar as it's a belief without proof, that's true. I base this belief on a statistical likelihood much as I believe two thrown, balanced dice will roll a seven more frequently than any other number.
Grand Master
The apostle Paul answers all these questions quite well in the first chapter of the book of Romans.
guest
Your statistical thinking fails to find reason, however. Have you ever computed (or seen computed) the odds of life as we know it evolving the way it has purely by chance? It beats, by far the # of stars in the galaxy. Not arguing with you just pointing out so that you give fairness a chance. You seem to have a problem with the idea of 'faith' but the truth of the matter is, what 'science' has told you and what you've CHOSEN to believe is faith unto itself. So it's not as if you can't have faith, it's just what you choose to put your faith in.
Grand Master
Whether you believe in it or not does not make it any less real. I can say I don't believe in gravity but if I jump out of the window on the 20th floor of a skyscraper I WILL die. Thus, I am punished for failing to believe in something I don't think is true. Granted you may say that gravity is something we see and produces replicable results and that is much different from not believing in what you cant see, hear, touch or measure. To this I would say most believe in a conscience although it can't be seen, heard, touched or measured. There is no material basis for a conscience unless it was implanted by a creator....God. We only know it exists and is universal. Such is the same with God.
fellow servant
...Must allow yourself time and room to check your evidence...again. Prophecy, history, and your version of justice are the only evidence you will be permitted to use. Compare them to God's and see if they match, and then decide.
If you live long enough, Prophecy, as it is fulfilled, will convince you all by itself. But, that is dependent on your knowledge of it.
GAL 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
As opposed to the bad man that does nothing?
AMOS 6:3 Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near;
As a scientist I have been trained to observe, take measurements, draw conclusions and learn from things around me. I'm not taking anything on faith.I agree, you have to take it on faith...see? You DO take some things on faith.
As thy days, so shall thy strength be - Deuteronomy 33:25
Product of Grace
powlette, if you can't see the difference between those two extensions then I don't know what to say. Also, we are talking about "uncreated" life, not evolved life. The kind that demonstrates "a creator isn't required". We haven't discovered a mechanism that proves that life on Earth is "uncreated" life. It is simply assumed a priori. It is a dogma of science.
But I believe you have shown yourself an intelligent poster and can discern the difference. The second is a leap of faith. There is nothing wrong with that, it simply extends your worldview into answering a very important question we all have: Where did I come from? Nature is your "God of the gaps".
God Bless!
Watchinginawe
I Samuel 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.
Senior Member
Will I be punished for failing to believe something that I don't think is true?
I will answer this question plainly as possible.
Yes you will be punished for failing to believe in God. The Bible tells us you have no excuse.
Romans 1:19-21
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
We can make all the excuses under the sun but it will not change the outcome in the end.
No Christ, No peace, or Know Christ, Know Peace.
Those who do not believe are condemned already, you are the only one who can make the choice to believe in the truth, the Lord will not force himself on you.
What gets me is people are willing to believe evelution when it is only the teachings of man, plus for something to evolve there had to be a beginning. All things begin somewhere even if there was a big bang the bang had to be created by something or someone, it just doesn't appear.
John 8:31-32
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
Dizzy
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I guess I'm out of luck then. Just seems odd that the all-powerful creator of the universe demands belief above all else and yet is strangely absent from our everyday world. That doesn't strike you as odd? It does, however, sound exactly like what someone creating a religion would say - "you'd better believe in my deity or you'll suffer forever after you die." Now that makes sense to me as a rationale for this part of christian dogma.
You know, math, biology, astronomy, etc are all "teaching of man".. heck even a seminary school would be the teaching of men - passing their beliefs onto the next generation. It doesn't make it any more valid or invalid.
So all things have to begin somewhere or be created and the explanation for this is a supernatural force that "always was" and somehow doesn't need its own explanation for where it came from. You haven't explained anything here - you've simply relabeled the big bang as "god".
I'm sorry to be so dismissive here, but I just find this whole topic to be a contradiction to the all-loving god of Christianity who can forgive all sins (murder, rape, genocide) but you have to believe in him even though he doesn't make himself known to everyone. Certainly not to me.
Last edited by tango; Jan 20th 2009 at 08:48 AM. Reason: language
Truth Seeker
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What makes you think that?
People see what they want to see, and I'm sure you realize that based upon your cancer example.
If someone doesn't want to believe then they aren't going to believe-period. There is no such thing as magical evidence that is going to pop up in your face. Yet, even if it did, people would still find a way to attribute it to something else.
"Well that was because of science"
"Well that was for some unknown reason that we can't explain yet."
"Well that is what's called a coincidence."
As Christians, yes we have to spread the word but we also have to realize that not everyone is going to understand nor are they meant to understand. As long as we've done our part and told them, that's all we can do. When the time comes, they won't be able to say "but no one told me".
I'm all for explaining and trying to give answers and such as long as it doesn't cross the line of arguing back and fourth because not only does it make everyone look bad, but also God is bigger than that. You can't try to explain spiritual things to someone with a worldly viewpoint, it's just not going to work, they aren't going to get it, and they will argue you down on every point.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Sorry to get off topic but this subject is a sensitive one for me.
Last edited by tango; Jan 20th 2009 at 08:48 AM. Reason: edited quoted section
Aufgepaßt - ich komme!
Hi Powlette,
I understand how you feel. It is difficult when you don't 'see' Him in our 'everyday world'. He kept my blinders on for 35+years(though now I see Him all day/everyday...seriously, it can be a bit of a drag sometimes
It's funny, when i first came to Jesus a few years ago I told my brother, who was very spiritual-but very against religion...especially super-natural Christianity(He was of the Jesus Seminar, Jesus was a good and wise teacher school of thought). But I started sending him e-mail messages trying to explain what had happened to me, how it had happened, why I believe etc. and at one point he said the EXACT same thing...'well, I guess I'm ______'d then huh?' to which I replied...'not quite yet bro!...you still have some time'...and the conversation was started, the seed was planted.... and I'm sure you can guess where this is going. Yes, he's now saved.
Actually that reminds me of another funny story. I was driving with my son one afternoon last year and before he believed, this same brother(very deep thinker almost to a fault) called my cell to tell me about this lunch he just had with a friend of his from college up in Minneapolis. He told me that he and this friend have been getting together a few times a year since graduating from St John's in the early 90's to shoot the breeze and philosiphize about the universe, the meaning of life, levels of conciousness...a lot of eastern mystic stuff. So he calls me and says...
'you know Junior'(he's my younger brother but calls me junior because I look/act so much like my dad), oh, and he's one of those slow talkers, almost like a southern drawl minus the southern part?...'you know junior, I was havin' lunch with this friend from college today and when we get together we dicuss really deep philosophy and and books we've read etc. etc. and I'm sitting there and...and...and I realize that with every subject that has come up I have ended up realating it back to Christ...I mean every single one...my friend kept looking me like I had completely lost it but I foundself defending Christ throughout the entire lunch...I mean, It was kinda weird...what's up with THAT?'
So I turn to my son (probably 12 at the time) in the passenger seat and gave him a quick rundown of the conversation and he turns to me and says....wait for it....wait for it...he says very matter-of-factly, 'Yep, that's how He does it.' My brother could hear him say it through the phone and just started cracking up. Maybe you had to be there, but it was a true 'classic' from where I was sitting.
So, I guess all I'm trying to say is that you're not 'dead' yet. I understand it is frustrating but if you really desire truth and seek it out, it eventually will be found at the foot of the cross. That's His promise, and if there is one thing I have learned about God over the last few years it is that He keeps His promisses...every single one, every single time, NO EXCEPTIONS! You don't have to seek Christ, you have to seek truth...and there, in truth, you will find Christ in all of His Glory!
Peace to you Powlette, I wish you well!
As thy days, so shall thy strength be - Deuteronomy 33:25
Regular Contributor
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I disagree - if god existed and wanted to make his presence known unequivocally, he could. So why this smoke and mirrors with faith and the unknown or the "mystery of faith" as I heard so many times in church growing up? If faith is so important and most people on earth are not christians, why would he not just make himself known and announce christianity as the one true religion?Yet, even if it did, people would still find a way to attribute it to something else.
You can quote the bible to me all day about testing god, etc, but really is there any common sense reason why eternal salvation would be predicated on belief in an invisible god? Why is god more interested in us worshiping him than in how we treat one another? That strikes me as selfish and self serving.
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