Does God really see us as perfect?

[theBelovedDisciple]

I can attest and do testify today that Jesus still 'chastises' His children.. yes He does.. I have been thru it... it was not fun but I"m glad it happened cause if it didnt then I would be 'illegimate'.. a bastard.. It was done because He 'loved' me and it's done because He loves His children too much.. I endured the chastisement.. but in the end it has 'yielded the peacable fruit of Righteousness' and to be a partaker of His Holiness...... Did I understand what I was going thru at the time? no.. I had no idea .. but today I know and understand of His Great Love for His own..

My chastisement had to do with the 'focus' of my life.. He delivered and saved me Feb 3 1994.. but after that I began to make the focus about me.. and not Him..... I had switched focus to 'me' instead of what He has accomplished on that bloody tree.. I had left aside the 'preaching of the Cross'... for that is where the Power of the Gospel resides... The testimony He has given me is about Him and His delivering and converting power..... and this all thru what He has 'done', as God in the flesh........ not what I"ve done or what I can do... but it's about Him..

He disciplined me yes.. but then He set right back on the right path again.. Gently and with much comfort.. instructing and teaching me along the way..... Today I 'know' that the Power of the Gospel.. resides in the Preaching of the Cross.. I also 'know' today that there are many 'enemies' of the Cross of Christ.. and for that purpose I sometimes break down in tears.. I understand fully today that it is 'foolishness' to many and some its a stumblingstone... but to us who are Truly Saved.. it is the Power of God.. amen and amen..

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

For they verily for a few days chastened [us] after their own pleasure; but he for [our] profit, that [we] might be partakers of his holiness.

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

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[thethinker]

Romans 6:4 is an admonition to walk in newness of life; it does not say that all Christians do so or that God sees all Christians as doing so.

Paul said this before God had written the law in their minds and upon their hearts. After God put His laws in them they judged sin themselves. This is the direction Paul was trying to take them. He said to the Corinthians,

"For if we would judge ourselves we would not be judged. But when we are judged we are chastened of the Lord that we should not be condemned with the world"

.

So God wanted all along for His people to judge their sins themselves. But they couldn't because God's law was not yet written in their minds and hearts . But the letter to the Hebrews indicates that the time was soon coming when God would put His law into them. And how can God see people as imperfect who have His law written in their minds and hearts?

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days says the Lord: I will put my laws in their mind and write them upon their hearts....and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember NO MORE

It clearly says that God would put His laws into their minds and hearts "AFTER those days". The expression "after those days" in its context reveals that it had not yet happened. God's law was not yet in them. Otherwise, why did the author warn them against backsliding to damnation again? They were prompted to backslide just as their fathers in the ages before them. So how could they have had God's law in them when the new covenant promise was that God would HEAL their backslidings?

Furthermore, if the law of God had been in them Paul would not have had to exhort them to "let" the word of Christ dwell in them. For once God's law is written in a man it dwells in him necessarily! He doesn't just choose to "let" it. Would Paul have exhorted a living well to bring forth water? Obviously not. That he had to exhort them to "let" the word of Christ dwell in them shows that God's law was not yet in them.

And once the law of God is firmly placed into the mind and heart of a man it says that God will remember that man's sin NO MORE. Therefore, God does not see sin in us in any sense of the term. No not at all.

You and I probably have sharply different views of God's new covenant dealings with man.

Peace,
thinker

[reformedct]

Ah, I wanted in this discussion so badly but I've heard nothing but awesome sermons on God's Grace lately that I wouldn't know where to start! We are in Christ COMPLETE, Whole and .....why is it that people just assume that being complete, depending on grace means we go sin more and more instead of less and less. Ah, but the love of Christ constrains me!

this is beautiful. When i first got saved i was focused on overcoming sin with my own strength and failing miserably. Then i heard a sermon from Mars Hill about grace and abiding in the vine. How every temptation is an oppurtunity to remain planted in Christ, and by doing so He promises we will bear much fruit! The gospel is not just how we get saved. It is also how we stay saved. Grace also includes a new heart and power over sin. If you truly love CHrist the thought of sinning against Him is horrifying and heartbreaking

[thethinker]

Hey guys,
I was thinking about my replies on this thread and wished I had been more simple. I was thinking about things this morning and it occurred to me that God does see our sin. But it is as Father He sees it and not as Judge.

As Judge God cannot see our sin because He sees Christ our Surety instead. I think this is more simple and direct.

bless all,
thinker

[Sirus]

Yes. Christ is Judge of the quick and the dead. When it says 'I will remember your sins no more' it doesn't mean God willingly gives himself amnesia.

[My heart's Desire]

Hey guys,
I was thinking about my replies on this thread and wished I had been more simple. I was thinking about things this morning and it occurred to me the God does see our sin. But it is as Father He sees it and not as Judge.

As Judge God cannot see our sin because He sees Christ our Surety instead. I think this is more simple and direct.

bless all,
thinker

Just as God saw the blood sacrifice over the ark with the broken Laws, He sees us covered by the Blood of Christ and no longer deals with us as strangers and foreigners but as sons and daughters.